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Star Wars The Last Jedi Episode 8 thread: this thread sucks, you should avoid it even after you've seen the movie (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
CentralPA
Footballguy
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
eh.. she's got nudes out there.. but i can't even finish to them.. a little too gory
tommyboy
Footballguy
Hilts
Footballguy
I swear to God you nerds are so eager to go complain about a movie you don't bother paying attention to it.
He's incredibly powerful but very raw and lets his emotions interfere with his abilities. Rey appears to be perhaps the most powerful jedi anyone has ever encountered but doesn't yet have any training. Perfectly reasonable to think she can win a small fight, especially if Ren was holding back at all (maybe he sensed they're related, maybe he didn't want to kill a hot chick).
At the end he was bleeding out. The fact he was fighting at all shows how tough he has the potential to be.
He's not a scary guy. He knows this. That's part of what is going to cause him to eventually become a terrifying bad guy. We're not watching a finished product like we saw with Vader.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I don't care how emotional he was. He could stop a moving laser bolt. Why doesn't he just freeze Finn like the bolt, cleave him in two and move on to Rey after 2 moves? They can't show us how badass Jedi are for now 7 movies and then have some punk who had some tonfa training at Stormtrooper Janitor Academy go toe to toe with you for minutes. Otherwise they needed to flat out say, "When Ren gets worked up, his force powers are practically gone," because there was no other mention or allusion to the fact that his emotion interferes with his abilities. Every time he got pissed off the Stormtroopers turned tail because they were afraid of him. Sorta pushes that theory in the other direction. Particularly since the Sith are supposed to harness the rage. So getting emotional feeds into their powers.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
He was injured
He was emotional
Crap and crap. None of those explains why Finn can go toe to toe with him. Maybe Rey who's on the mother of all learning curves on how to use her powers, but no way that justifies Finn not being turned into a kebab in less than a second of engaging with Ren.
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
Exactly... should've been an instant kebab. Look at the way the emperor trashed a couple Jedi masters in like 3 seconds in Revenge of the Sith.
That's how the Finn fight should've gone. Force punch, loses saber, behead... gone. I've already been asked to suspend disbelief and accept laser swords and a "force" at least within those confines give me a proper story.
tommyboy
Footballguy
or alternatively he gets worked up and loses focus. or Rey is able to hinder him without being aware of it. I don't really have a lot of investment in this argument but it just occured to me that him being an emotional juvenile seems to be key to his character
Hilts
Footballguy
If we get a fully trained Ren losing a fight to Finn even if he's injured then I'll join the critics. As of now he's a whiny kid with gobs of potential but doesn't quite know what to do or how to handle himself. Probably needed to change his underwear after the fight.
Hilts
Footballguy
At comparing the Emperor to this kid. JFC y'all an impatient bunch. The emperor had how many decades of training and experience compared to Ren? You think Kylo is that skilled already? What did the film show that would possibly give you that indication? Try working with what the movie actually gave you, not your own hopes and visions.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
An emotional juvenile that can freeze a laser bolt in mid air. If he can freeze a laser bolt and hold it there for minutes, he can freeze a space janitor for 3 seconds.
It was a terrible plot point that should've been fleshed out earlier in the movie, not explained in the sequel (if it does get explained). One line. That's it. He could be talking to the Vader Mask. "Grandfather, I know I'm supposed to control and harness my emotions unlike the stoic Jedi, but when my panties are all up in a bunch, I lose focus and I fail you. Help me dead Grandfather. Can you talk to me as a force ghost like you did to Luke. I don't care if you use Hayden Christensen or Sebastian Shaw as your ghostly image. I just need some guidance."
Sure, the rest would probably be cut out in editing, but that one sentence makes that last scene somewhat plausible.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
The emperor was also squaring off against Jedi Masters. It's a viable argument. He was much more advanced, but he was also playing much better competition.
The Emporer is the New England Patriots of the last 15 years or so. The Jedi Masters are all the other teams in the NFL. The Pats smoke all the Jedi Masters/NFL teams practically every year.
Kylo Ren is a strong college football team. Finn is a Pee Wee football team. Even if Kylo is the University of Delaware, he's smoking the Pee Wee Team. Even if the entire team had a bad day. Was really worked up. If everyone of them owned a dog and that dog had been run over by a car that morning and half the team shot a nail gun into one foot and had to be at the hospital for stitches for half the game, they still beat the pee wee team.
Hilts
Footballguy
How did they all go that long without eating anything or going to the bathroom once? Totally unrealistic. Should have given us a line explaining they just flushed one out, or at least shown us them coming from the bathroom or something.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
None of that impacts the plot and constructs created by the cannon of 6 previous movies and most of a 7th that were violated or simply poorly written and directed at the end of the 7th movie. They created a galaxy that has force weilders that are so incredibly powerful and shown us that for 7 movies and then just had the guy go toe to toe with a mere mortal and barely scratched the guy.
Why didn't he just slam Finn against a tree with the force and keep walking when Finn squared up on him? That would make more sense. Having them fight it out like that is akin to Indy fighting the swordsman with a sword rather than just shooting him with the gun on his hip.
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
I agree with this logic wholeheartedly. There should definitely be more dump scenes. Does yoda poop green? What does Vader do... bag system.. they should definitely flesh that out
Hilts
Footballguy
Again, Indiana Jones was a seasoned professional at that point who had been in numerous fights. Stop comparing who Ren will become with who he is today. If you just take Kylo as the character he was shown to be, it works. He's inexperienced, scared, and doesn't really know what he's doing. He's powerful but has a loooong ways to go. You're letting Vader's fully developed awesomeness corrupt your ability to judge this character. Just look at this one movie. It fits. Easily. No reason to bring the emperor or the powerful jedis of the other movies into this. Just judge him on what they showed in this movie.
Hilts
Footballguy
I mean I'm not even a SW nerd. Didn't see the originals until I was in high school and could take them or leave them. I can just recognize an obvious storyline when I see it and can't understand why or how folk in here are unable to see what was pretty obvious story with the character. They were as blatant as you can be without literally saying it. Not every plot point needs to be conveyed by explicitly saying it, and it's people who need to be spoonfed that information that lead us to a billion Transformer movies.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Anyone trying to come up with a logical reason why Ren didn't just split Finn in half without a seconds thought is being ridiculous. He struggled with Finn for a little bit so they could fit a few more lightsaber swings and a little more drama into a motion picture. That is the only reason, and I can see why ruining a villain for a movie trope would annoy some people.
His rage and anger make his dark side powers weaker? . It's almost like they didn't repeat over and over and over and over and over and over again in every Star Wars movie that that's the exact opposite of how it works.
His rage and anger make his dark side powers weaker?
. It's almost like they didn't repeat over and over and over and over and over and over again in every Star Wars movie that that's the exact opposite of how it works.
Hilts
Footballguy
You mentioned rage and anger. Others mentioned emotions. There are more emotions than those two options, Dennis.His rage and anger make his dark side powers weaker?
Billy Bats
Footballguy
I’m just here for Ep VIII news and rumors. 
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Jedi are trained to deny their emotion and use the force from a place of peace and serenity. Sith are taught to draw on their emotions (all of them) to gain strength in the force. Particularly fear, anger, hate and suffering. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering."
TheFanatic
Footballguy
That could be. It would almost have to be, but I'm not sure he does. I wish he did. It would close up that plot hole. But I don't think he does. Then again, what the heck does he bring to the table for movies 8 and 9 if he doesn't?
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Says the guy that thinks a Sith is hampered by emotions. There are 6 movies that show it works exactly opposite of that. But since the character is troubled, then you go ahead and assume that those emotions would make him weaker. And not a little weaker. But way, way, way weaker. Finn was a Stormtrooper. These guys are nothing more than blaster fodder who can't seem to ever shoot straight. He wasn't an elite guard of the emperor. He wasn't some bad ### trooper in any way. He was a janitor that got to do a few raids here and there. And because Ren wasn't in his safe place, he not only couldn't kill Finn in 1 second, but went toe to toe for many minutes with him. Did I mention Finn was using a weapon that he had only touched one other time? Sure, Ren showed some emotional distress and punched his wound a few time to show how bad he was injured, but it's still bad writing. The guy can freeze Finn in place, toss him into a tree, throw him 100 feet straight up and let gravity finish him, or throw his light saber and have it cleave him in half all with his mind.
The fact that it's so obvious to you what was going on and that in fact is 180 degrees from what happened lends me to think you should be the one getting a Jar Jar Forever tattoo on your arm.
There are 8 movies to choose from now. I want you to show me which one of those has a Sith who is hampered by his emotions? Go ahead and choose any of the animated shows, more than 100 books and a series of comics. All the latter are not cannon, but still, I'm in a giving mood. I want you to feel like you have a chance here.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Agree that TFA was overall a good movie, particularly compared to the god-awful prequels, but come on now with defending the Finn / Ren fight. That was absurd. Ren was strong enough to destroy Luke's Jedi Academy, kill all of the students, and send Luke scurrying off into hiding. He's obviously both feared and respected within the First Order. And then an untrained non-Force sensitive former Stormtrooper can fight him to a draw with a lightsaber? GTFO.
Rey, yeah maybe I can see that as she's obviously hugely powerful with the Force albeit raw, but Ren not being able to easily dispatch Finn was really lame.
Rey, yeah maybe I can see that as she's obviously hugely powerful with the Force albeit raw, but Ren not being able to easily dispatch Finn was really lame.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
We saw a pre-teen Jedi Padawan carving up multiple clone troopers before finally getting shot up in ROTS, and the biggest bada$$ in the First Order can't beat a single stormtrooper in a straight up lightsaber fight? 
Thunderlips
Footballguy
To be fair....they did show that Stormtroopers could fight with those laser staff things earlier.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Each other. Not extremely powerful, if not somewhat raw, Sith. And didn't Han have to save his ### there from a Stormtrooper? Isn't that like warming up with a twig and then going up to the plate with a 50 pound lead pipe and facing down Clayton Kershaw.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Against other normal dudes? Sure. Against a dark Jedi, though? That goes against everything that we've ever seen -- Jedi mow through dozens of ordinary joes like they aren't even minor obstacles.
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Thunderlips
Footballguy
Also..... have you watched it recently? I just did. Ren kicks the #### out of him. Finn's always on the defensive.....Ren toys with him a bit...backs him into a tree and then Finn gets in a lucky shot when Ren doesn't want to kill him just by edging the laser guard of his saber further.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I never got the sense that Ren was a Dark Jedi/Sith.....at least an "official" Sith.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I sort of remember that, but what I remember more is that he wasn't turned into a shish kabob in about .5 seconds. Kicking the #### our of Finn in moral terms, yes, not in force wielder terms.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
There is some debate on that one. We have the guy donning all black like his grandfather, takes on a new name (but it's not with Darth at the beginning), uses a red light saber, and is part of a master/apprentice dynamic. He may not be a Sith Lord, but he sure seems to be going down the path to becoming a Sith.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
He's not a Sith. He's officially "Master of the Knights of Ren," which suggests very strongly that he's the head of (and the biggest bada$$ in) a new sect of dark Jedi aligned with Snoke and the First Order. Whatever label you want to throw on him, he was trained extensively by Luke and likely also by Snoke and carries the Skywalker bloodline -- he should be able to easily slaughter multiple normal dudes, even if he's immature and not fully trained; see Obi Wan as a Padawan vs battle droids, Luke as a not-yet a Jedi vs. Jabba's guards, Anakin as a Padawan vs. everyone he fought in AOTC. He should have been able to just walk right through Finn any way that you want to slice it.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
need2know
Footballguy
well he did get shot with chewbaccas's crossbow. anyways, this has been thoroughly talked to death in the episode 7 thread. perhaps those that want to fight old battles go there and hang out? this thread is for episode 8.
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
Hey, didn't you see my last comment?
We will babble about inane minutia wherever we please ThankYouVeryMuch
