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*** Minnesota Vikings: #2019

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On 2017-04-19 at 0:06 PM, Biabreakable said:

Norse Code Podcast Episode 180: Wide(r) Left Draft Preview with Guest Ben Natan

Ben makes some interesting observations about Joe Mixon who does not always see the right hole and who loses yards behind the line of scrimmage at a higher rate than most of the other highly rated RBs of the 2017 draft class. That Mixon has poor footwork at times and is being successful just on pure athletic ability against weak defense. He describes Mixon as a bit raw in his development of RB skills. Compares Mixon to Tevin Coleman in this way.

Some good observations that I have seen examples of as well.

It probably a waste of time talking about Mixon and the Vikings.  Just think he is off  Spielman draft board for obvious reasons.  

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6 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

It probably a waste of time talking about Mixon and the Vikings.  Just think he is off  Spielman draft board for obvious reasons.  

I agree. It would really surprise me if they drafted Mixon.

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I really hope the Vikings don't draft a RB highly, unless somebody falls WAY too far. I feel like McKinnon has never really gotten a fair shake, and Shurmur's offense should fit him perfectly, he(along with Thielen) seemed much improved after Norv left. The Murray signing is whatever, I think the Vikes overpaid a replacement level talent, but he can at least be Asiata plus. 

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I might be inclined to agree with Chuck, but really I just wanted to star this thread.

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16 hours ago, travdogg said:

I really hope the Vikings don't draft a RB highly, unless somebody falls WAY too far. I feel like McKinnon has never really gotten a fair shake, and Shurmur's offense should fit him perfectly, he(along with Thielen) seemed much improved after Norv left. The Murray signing is whatever, I think the Vikes overpaid a replacement level talent, but he can at least be Asiata plus. 

The Vikings taking a RB high with the needs they have and not having a 1st is not realy smart, they just signed Murray and I am in the minority believing the hate for him is unjust and just way to extreme. If the OLine is as bad as Vikings fans say it is, OL should be all you draft in the first few rounds. They also need DT, another TE and another WR. Theilen, Diggs and Treadwell? Why is it people have faith in McKinnon who has had a fair shot but not Murray who did something with his fair shot in the league, McKinnon would run for 6 carries and get 16 yards, or 14 carries for 31 or 16 for 44 or 16 for 45. He had one game of 20 carries and went for 36 yards. He had his shot and he isnt good, Murray is. it is possible the RBs were the problem in getting the yards and made the OLine seem worse than it was. But whatever, OLines will always look great having Asiata and McKinnon the great 20 for 36 yard carry backs to block for. Keep blaming the line and when you realize how terrible McKinnon was on 3rd down blocking according to PFF you will realize he is a actually terrible football player who also gave up a lot of sacks. They having to recover from Peterson so we need a RB is reactionary and pure panic.

Round 2, No. 48

Round 3, No. 79

Round 3, No. 86 (from Miami)

Round 4, No. 120

Round 4, No. 128 (from Miami)

Round 5, No. 160

Round 6, No. 199

Round 7, No. 232

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McKinnon was a college QB so learning how to block if anything I put blame on the coaching staff if he can't block then don't have blocking.  Put him in the slot to go out for a pass or left bench.  So he can't block so then don't put him in a position to block a DE or some OLB who has 50 or more lbs on him

As for Murray, he had a great O-line yet struggled to break tackles after initial contact.  He's a filler, probably for just this season.

If they draft a RB fairly high in this draft (2nd-3th-4th) then okay, fine.  It's supposed to be a deep draft at this position....so if Rick grabs someone then I'll assume he had a higher grade on the guy and they couldn't pass on him.

As for other positions of need, strongly feel C/G type should be high priority, as well as DT and LB.  TE, WR and RB are like secondary needs for me at this time.

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9 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I just can't believe that people see more than simply a role player in McKinnon. SMH

Kind of agree. He's a role player, but an important one. Right now, I think he's a RB2 with an RB2 as the on paper starter ahead of him. I like Murray last year in Oak and thought he just "looked" better than his two backups. I thought Asiata, despite all the naysayers, looked ok last year and the Vikes got Murray wanting to get more production out of their banger guy. If the line is a little (hopefully more) better and the backfield is better. Then almost by default Bradford will be a better game manager because he's not looking for Diggs/Thielen/Rudolph on his back.

The defense kept them in a lot of games last year, hopefully it'll be a better balance. 

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4 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I just can't believe that people see more than simply a role player in McKinnon. SMH

I think he has shown signs of promise. He makes big plays at times. I have seen that enough that I would like to see more. He is far from consistent though and he has been completely ineffectual at times.

He cannot really handle the pass protection assignments. That is the main reason you would see Asiata in there at times on 3rd downs. He isn't a natural receiver either. I have seen improvement from him in that area and he did catch 43 passes last season and at a 81% catch rate, which is significant for him as it has been below the average of 73% for a RB up until last season. The yards per target are still below average though.

As a runner he had just over 3 yards per carry on runs that were not wildcat formation. In the wildcat he had over 5 yards per carry, but this is a trick play and not a staple part of the offense. If the Vikings do use a fair amount of Wildcat (we are only talking about one or two plays per game) again this year, it may not be as effective without the decoy of Patterson.

Sam Eckstrom details this in his recent article.

 

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Spielman on Trading Up, Teddy, Mixon, Peterson

Because of the cost to move from pick 48 to the end of the first round, Spielman says it is very unlikely they will trade up.

He says he likes the depth of the 2nd 3rd and 4th rounds and thinks they will find players who can contribute for them there.

He says there are a lot of things that they know about players (off field concerns) that are not out in the media, that they have to consider as far as if the player is an organizational fit.

He says they have made decisions about several players in regards to this and red carded players. He says there is still more information coming in and that they will finalize everything right before the draft.

Later on he says if a player does receive a red dot they will not be Minnesota Vikings. 

He says whether it is fair or not, the players that they grade as less talented players are more likely to be eliminated by red dots. The more talented the player, the more time they will spend looking into the player and the events or behavior in question. They have to ask if the talent is worth the potential headache.

They talk about Everson Griffen who was a 1st round talent coming out but fell to the Vikings because of some questions teams had about him.

He mentions that if a player hasn't gotten a red dot (do not draft) that they still can get a "box" which means the player has some reason that they won't draft the player how they grade them talent wise. He gives an example that you might have a player with a 1st round grade that they wouldn't be willing to take the risk on until the 4th or later rounds. (fitting the Griffen example)

He said they haven't made any decision in regards to the contract extensions and he wont be discussing that. He is optimistic about Teddy Bridgewater but they don't know and there is no timeline for him.

He says that he expects more trading in this draft because teams can trade compensatory draft picks now.

He is asked about if they look back five years and see how they graded players back then. Rick says they use a 3 year snap shot (parsing of data) to compare their predraft grades with how the player actually performed. That they have data which goes back to 2005 now. And as the database of information builds up, they are able to identify players who are similar (similarity scores) who failed in the past, and take those things into consideration in their evaluation of the player prospect.

He mentions 2500 traits that they look at for players. :shock:

He describes the similarity scores to the point where they are cloning players (as far as identifying their traits).

He says a players passion for the game is very important and if they give a player a under-achiever grade they have learned to not select those players, not matter how talented or gifted they are. 

 

Edited by Biabreakable

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Only 6 tackles in McGinns top 100: TACKLES (6) – Ryan Ramczyk, Wisconsin; Garett Bolles, Utah; Cam Robinson, Alabama; Dion Dawkins, Temple; Antonio Garcia, Troy; Zach Banner, Southern California.

Spielman better get one of them instead of picking through the leftovers in the fourth round like he often does.  I wouldn't take Speilman word on trading up.  This is the guy that  "had no intent to trade Percy Harvin" just before he traded Percy Harvin.  Not arguing with the results by the way. 

Viking not picking up Bridgewater's contract means that he is done with the Vikings.  So we need another dreaded developmental QB in this draft.  I say dreaded because I can't remember the last developmental QB that developed into anything.  (Edit to add: Romo was the last QB that fits the description)

 

Edited by Donnybrook

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3 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

Viking not picking up Bridgewater's contract means that he is done with the Vikings.  

I don''t think it means that at all.

There is a definite bond between Teddy Bridgewater, the coaching staff and the front office. Bridgewater is under contract for the 2017 and they can sign him to a new contract if they want to. 

If Teddy cannot recover from his injury enough to play again then they won't sign him to a new deal. If he does I think they work something out and Bridgewater becomes the back up in 2018. They don't know if Teddy can fully recover or recover enough or not yet. They won't be making a decision about this or Bradford until some time during the regular season would be my guess.

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5 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

Only 6 tackles in McGinns top 100: TACKLES (6) – Ryan Ramczyk, Wisconsin; Garett Bolles, Utah; Cam Robinson, Alabama; Dion Dawkins, Temple; Antonio Garcia, Troy; Zach Banner, Southern California.

Spielman better get one of them instead of picking through the leftovers in the fourth round like he often does.  I wouldn't take Speilman word on trading up.  This is the guy that  "had no intent to trade Percy Harvin" just before he traded Percy Harvin.  Not arguing with the results by the way. 

Viking not picking up Bridgewater's contract means that he is done with the Vikings.  So we need another dreaded developmental QB in this draft.  I say dreaded because I can't remember the last developmental QB that developed into anything.  (Edit to add: Romo was the last QB that fits the description)

 

Ummm noooo......

from another site.... Teddy Bridgewater's (knee) contract would toll to 2018 if he spends all of this season on reserve/PUP. With this information, it would make all the sense in the world for the Vikings to simply stash Bridgewater on PUP for the season, let him try and get healthy, and then revisit the situation in 2018 when, as of right now, Sam Bradford is scheduled to be a free agent. A lot will happen between now and then, but it sounds like Bridgewater won't be hitting free agency next March.

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Vikings have plenty of intriguing options in Round 2

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikings have the 16th pick in the second round of the draft on Friday night, and given the way the first round played out on Thursday night, they should have plenty of scenarios through which to address their needs.

Players like Western Kentucky guard Forrest Lamp, Michigan State defensive tackle Malik McDowell, Florida State running back Dalvin Cook, Tennessee running back Alvin Kamara and Alabama tackle Cam Robinson are all available at the start of the second round. So is Temple guard Dion Dawkins and Washington safety Budda Baker. And the Vikings could have to make a decision about whether they'll take controversial Oklahoma running back Joe Mixon.

There's enough depth remaining after the first 32 picks of the draft to think the Vikings will be in good shape at the start of the second round on Friday night, when the draft resumes after a first round that saw three quarterbacks go in the first 12 picks and skill position players like Clemson's Mike Williams and Washington's John Ross climb into the top 10. Though the draft is thought to be thin at offensive tackle, only two offensive linemen were taken in the first round and the draft has plenty of depth at guard, where the Vikings could use another player to compete on the right side.

Minnesota will have three picks on the second day of the draft, making its first choice at No. 48 overall. The Vikings have two picks in the third round: their own choice at No. 79 overall and the No. 86 pick, which came from Miami in a trade during the 2016 draft.

If there's a lineman the Vikings like at No. 48, the most sensible course of action might be for them to add a young player to their rebuilding effort on their offensive front, before taking advantage of the depth in the draft to select a running back later on. But McDowell -- who spent some time with Vikings coach Mike Zimmer before the draft -- could also make sense, if the Vikings believe the strong three-technique tackle will bring enough fire to help them at a position that remains in flux with Sharrif Floyd's status uncertain.

And if the Vikings needed to move up in the second round to take a player they want, they have enough draft collateral to make it happen. They own five picks in the next three rounds, including two fourth-round picks on Saturday.

---

So it seems like if we move up in the 2nd round, it would be Malik McDowell from Michigan State otherwise, an O-lineman or perhaps a Safety or ....

 

 

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Cook?  Hmm interesting.  First round talent but off-field and medical issues.  The NETWORK people are saying Vikings did a lot of homework on RB's this year so I guess they felt a can't miss prospect at this spot.

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Vikings still have the one of the worst O-lines.  So they signed a mediocre running back and then used a 2nd and a 4th on a running back.   I have nothing against Cook but it is not a position that translates into winning football games. I been following this franchise for 40 years but it is time to move on. 

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18 minutes ago, Donnybrook said:

Vikings still have the one of the worst O-lines.  So they signed a mediocre running back and then used a 2nd and a 4th on a running back.   I have nothing against Cook but it is not a position that translates into winning football games. I been following this franchise for 40 years but it is time to move on. 

Holy #### overreaction. 

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At this point of the draft, it would be considered a reach for the Vikings to take one of these Center/Guards or Tackle/Guards that we'd have play Guard for us. 

We have 2 picks in the 3rd.  I see the move for Cook as he was easily the best available talent that they couldn't pass up.    Sure we could have perhaps traded down some to gain some extra picks but I'm okay with this risk at this point.

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I think Cook was a 1st round talent and the Vikings used their extra 4th round pick gained by trading out of the 3rd round last year for their 3rd this year and pick 128.

Teams have been trading a lot and the players Vikings had 1st round grades on was likely shrinking. So they didn't want to risk waiting any further.

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Looks like Packers and Indy have subscribed to Belichick's philosophy.  They have a much bigger need for a running back than the Vikings but have figured out that decent options are available late in the draft.

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3 minutes ago, CanadianNFLJunkie said:

Bravo.... Elflein is a solid pick.  I am curious what we gave up to move up.

5th rounder.  Works for me.  

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Just now, Andy Dufresne said:

Elflein is just another average, undersized, unathletic lineman that Spielman always whiffs on.

All Big Ten 3 years and Rimington award winner is "average?"

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What next with their remaining  third rounder? Cant imagine them not going defense again. 

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Arguably the best RB in the draft (would've liked to see Mixon, but understand why not) and a guy that was voted the best Center in the NCAA and that played against high level Defenses. I'm not complaining.

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I like the aggressiveness of trading up for who you want. Spielman usually whiffs on later picks anyways so why not.

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3 minutes ago, FunkyPlutos said:

At least they picked a lineman in the first 3 rounds...hasn't happened since Kalil...and before that Loadholdt...

I really would have liked to get Dion Dawkins or Taylor Morton who were drafted at the end of the 2nd round. But Elflien is a good player as well.

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1 minute ago, snore said:

What next with their remaining  third rounder? Cant imagine them not going defense again. 

My 3 choices: 

Caleb Brantley

Desmond King

Dede Westbrook

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