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*** Minnesota Vikings: OFFICIAL

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I get the enthusiasm now. Bears looking really dangerous on both sides of the ball, young, and a bright future. Huge win for them tonight. Congrats to Bears fans.

Vikings continue to come up short. Hopefully they beat the Pack at home next week to stay in the wild card hunt.

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Not sure if it is coaching or "I got mine" mentality but this offense looks uninspired to many times.. Looked like zombies for over 3 quarters... Reminded me way too much of the Bills game...

At least the defense did their part by somehow keeping it close, but with the money spent on the offensive side you'd think the OC could figure out a way to mix things up.

Hopefully it will be the kick in the butt they need to beat the Packers. :football:

 

Edited by snogger

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1 hour ago, snogger said:

Not sure if it is coaching or "I got mine" mentality but this offense looks uninspired to many times.. Looked like zombies for over 3 quarters... Reminded me way too much of the Bills game...

They don't have the OL to get anything going consistently against good D's. When they ran up the gut on that first drive on 3rd and inches, with the entire OL getting pushed backwards... well, it is what it is, and it isn't changing this year. That's what we're working with. Against good D's, they might be able to nickel/dime to scores here and there, but JMHO they make too many mistakes to rely on the approach as a game plan. The D has regressed and suffers from it's own inconsistency/mental breakdowns/penalties. Add it up, and the margin is just too thin over 60 minutes for a team that does not execute near well enough to play that way. Don't get me wrong, they'll be an entertaining team to watch this year, and get their share of wins. Still, in all likelihood they're just biding time to a season ending beat down of some sort.  

Probably need to think about what it will take to solve the longstanding OL problem. I'd just write off re-signing Barr, Richardson, Sendejo, Waynes and redistribute that cap money where it is needed. They aren't difference makers on D, and we can perhaps get difference makers at OL. I don't know what they have tied up in Reiff/Remmers, but I'd get out from under those obligations if possible because they are drastically overpaid. I commend the team for trying with those guys, but they are basically stealing at this point.  

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Zimmer really hates PFF taking a dig at them at the end where he says he isn't sure he knows what pressure is anymore or whos deciding it.

As far as the game yesterday I thought the Vikings just got beat for the most part. Credit to the Bears for playing very solid defense for the entire first half. The offense didn't do much at all so many 3 and outs and thus the Bears offense on the field all day.

Cousins hasn't been playing as well the last two games. Zimmer said Cousins two interceptions were because of a miscommunication and then a misread. He says Cousins should be more willing to take whats there instead of always pushing the ball down the field. From what I saw Cousins was way off target on a lot of throws and not all of those were affected by pressure, which is basically what Zimmer was talking about as far as what pressure is, because he thought Cousins has a lot of clean pockets to work with.

Running QB has long been a problem with this defense and Trubisky made some great plays with his legs that broke the defense down at times. That threat is also part of why the misdirection is effective as it was early on in the game. The Bears moved the ball on offense and the Vikings didn't.

Theres still a lot of games left and the Vikings get the Bears at home at the end of the year to even this out.

It should not have taken as long as it did for the Vikings to run no huddle to keep the defense from subbing just like the Bears were doing to the Vikings early on in the game. The offense seems to find some rhythm when they do that. I don't think the Vikings did that until the 3rd quarter.

Pat Elflien and Mike Remmers were not doing well against Hicks who is very strong. They could not match up and beaten badly by him many times in the game. Hard to run when guys like him are pushing the blockers into the backfield if they even get in the way.

I think the passing offense was at least clicking earlier on in the season and its not so much now over the last two games.

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12 hours ago, BigJim® said:

They don't have the OL to get anything going consistently against good D's. When they ran up the gut on that first drive on 3rd and inches, with the entire OL getting pushed backwards... well, it is what it is, and it isn't changing this year. That's what we're working with. Against good D's, they might be able to nickel/dime to scores here and there, but JMHO they make too many mistakes to rely on the approach as a game plan. The D has regressed and suffers from it's own inconsistency/mental breakdowns/penalties. Add it up, and the margin is just too thin over 60 minutes for a team that does not execute near well enough to play that way. Don't get me wrong, they'll be an entertaining team to watch this year, and get their share of wins. Still, in all likelihood they're just biding time to a season ending beat down of some sort.  

Probably need to think about what it will take to solve the longstanding OL problem. I'd just write off re-signing Barr, Richardson, Sendejo, Waynes and redistribute that cap money where it is needed. They aren't difference makers on D, and we can perhaps get difference makers at OL. I don't know what they have tied up in Reiff/Remmers, but I'd get out from under those obligations if possible because they are drastically overpaid. I commend the team for trying with those guys, but they are basically stealing at this point.  

Well, that kind of is my point.. The OL sucks.... you know it, I know it, hell, everyone but apparently the OC knows it...

He keeps calling deep passing plays with Cousins standing in the pocket.. He has proven over and over that he can roll-out and throw with the best of them.. Shorten up the routes and move Cousins around.

If the OC can't design plays to get Cousin's out of the pocket, or provide more protection, then maybe it is time for a new OC... :mellow:

Edited by snogger

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I don't remember many deep passing plays. In fact, worst pass protection of the night was a red zone sack where DT came right through unblocked. I agree it was not a great offensive game plan by JDF, particularly disappointing with the bye week to prepare. Very vanilla and predictable, which I'd hoped we moved beyond with that hire. For whatever reason, the Vikings have not executed screens well at all this season, which is the main counterpunch to pressure. Maybe it is not as successful because these are 4-man rush (i.e. not blitz) pressures. Like Buffalo, that Bear front is just a bad matchup for our line. Still, I'm pinning what we're seeing on player abilities/execution rather than coaching. At least for now. 

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13 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

Cousins hasn't been playing as well the last two games. Zimmer said Cousins two interceptions were because of a miscommunication and then a misread. He says Cousins should be more willing to take whats there instead of always pushing the ball down the field. From what I saw Cousins was way off target on a lot of throws and not all of those were affected by pressure, which is basically what Zimmer was talking about as far as what pressure is, because he thought Cousins has a lot of clean pockets to work with.

I 100% agreed with Zimmer's assessment on Cousins who seemed hell-bent on taking high gambit / high risk pass.  He did appear to placed too much faith in his abilities as well as over-reliance on Thielen and Diggs instead of allowing his play-makers to play make on the field. 

2 hours ago, BigJim® said:

I don't remember many deep passing plays. In fact, worst pass protection of the night was a red zone sack where DT came right through unblocked. I agree it was not a great offensive game plan by JDF, particularly disappointing with the bye week to prepare. Very vanilla and predictable, which I'd hoped we moved beyond with that hire. For whatever reason, the Vikings have not executed screens well at all this season, which is the main counterpunch to pressure. Maybe it is not as successful because these are 4-man rush (i.e. not blitz) pressures. Like Buffalo, that Bear front is just a bad matchup for our line. Still, I'm pinning what we're seeing on player abilities/execution rather than coaching. At least for now. 

Agreed on the bold text.  Vikings' divisional loss to Bears is squarely on Cousins' and DeFilippo for lack of preparation and adjustment throughout in this game.  I was genuinely surprised with lack of screen passing to their RB / TE and I kept yelling to the TV screen to make dumpoff pass... just to keep their offense moving on the field. 

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lack of quality coaching is killing them, too. Zimmer is not HC material..Cousins is not the savior they thought he was. they don't have an o-line, and no RB to speak of. I think they're closer to the team that the Bills slaughtered than they are to the team that beat the Saints in the playoffs last season. they now play packers, pats, seahawks. Potential of losing 3 straight is BIG here..they'll lose at least 2 of the next 3, probably both of the road games ( pats, hawks).Seahawks trending up. I'm not convinced Vikings make the post season.

They're so much like the Jags in that they both overacheived last season, and if things continue to go the way they've been going, both HCs seem destined for the chopping block at the end of this season. it just feels like the air has been let out of the bag with both teams. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Tanner9919 said:

lack of quality coaching is killing them, too. Zimmer is not HC material.

I'm not saying Zimmer is definitely not part of the problem, but I don't think he is emphatically not head coaching material. If Dan Carlson makes a 35 yard FG vs. the Pack... 6-4. If Thielen doesn't fumble us to a 9-14 point swing nearing halftime vs New Orleans... maybe the Vikes are up 20-10 at half vs a top NFC team. If Dalvin doesn't fumble in the redzone... if Cousins doesn't throw two picks... if guys don't get dumb personal fouls, etc., etc., etc. 

With just basic player execution, this team could easily be 7-3 or 8-2 with qualities wins, despite dealing with catastrophic OL ineptitude. Sure, I have concerns with this scheme or that plan (like our vanilla offensive approach on SNF), but 2018 failures have largely resulted from players not executing. A coach can only put players into position to win. I do think Viking coaches are putting players into a position to control their fate, unlike other coaches I've been down on. 

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Vikings place Sendejo on IR, elevate James from practice squad

Not a big deal in my view as I think Anthony Harris covers much better then Dejo does.

Sendejo is more of a traditional strong safety type who hits hard, but he also misses a lot of tackles. I think Harris does everything else better than Sendejo does, he just doesn't hit as hard.

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Zimmer is a very good HC. Don't see that criticism at all. Love the guy. OL continues to suck. Kirk has had some bad moments but putting up outstanding stats behind that terrible front. I think DeFilipo is still finding his way.

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On 11/29/2018 at 10:48 AM, cap'n grunge said:

Zimmer is a very good HC. Don't see that criticism at all. Love the guy. OL continues to suck. Kirk has had some bad moments but putting up outstanding stats behind that terrible front. I think DeFilipo is still finding his way.

If Zimmer would only get out of his own way he would be on his way to legendary status. 

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The defense was able to slow the Pats down. HOF QB...ain’t gonna pitch a shut out. We are struggling on offense and I get part ofnit is the offensive line but some of the play calling is just odd.  We waver between conservative and cute. Cook had some good runs today, would like to see them push on that more.  

I figured they would have their ups and downs this year (new OC, bad o-line, cook coming back, new QB) but this is just tough to watch.  

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This might be the worst defense of the Zimmer era. I'm not saying they're dumpster fire bad, just near the bottom of what we have seen from a Zimmer lead defense. 4 games left and they've already allowed more points than they did all of last season. Last season was special, but still...

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As Vikings fans, we are used to having our hopes raised only to see them dashed. This season is no different. Still, I really thought the additions we made this year would make us a conference champion at least.  So it goes, my Dad says....  He has lived through more Vikings seasons than me and watched the Lakers go to LA.  

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34 minutes ago, sports_fan said:

This might be the worst defense of the Zimmer era. I'm not saying they're dumpster fire bad, just near the bottom of what we have seen from a Zimmer lead defense. 4 games left and they've already allowed more points than they did all of last season. Last season was special, but still...

They were playing Marcus Sherels and Holton Hill at CB at one point. In a passing league, they're just undermanned.

The biggest problem is what everyone said it would be - the offensive line sabotages everything.

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10 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They were playing Marcus Sherels and Holton Hill at CB at one point. In a passing league, they're just undermanned.

The biggest problem is what everyone said it would be - the offensive line sabotages everything.

:goodposting:

It's hard to be angry at the outcome. The offense has talent, but can't do anything it would love to do because of a miserable offensive line... an OL that can't pass protect or convert 3rd and 1. That's a problem. It's clearly rattling Cousins. Now the defense can't use schemes that relied on sticky corners, covering for CB injuries. Kicking has only made things worse, with unrewarded drives. I'm just being realistic, this is a very flawed team.     

Edited by BigJim®

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One thing that caught my eye was how well NE executes quick screens. JDF should take notes, because Viking screens seem slow developing and doomed.  

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9 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:
9 hours ago, sports_fan said:

This might be the worst defense of the Zimmer era. I'm not saying they're dumpster fire bad, just near the bottom of what we have seen from a Zimmer lead defense. 4 games left and they've already allowed more points than they did all of last season. Last season was special, but still...

They were playing Marcus Sherels and Holton Hill at CB at one point. In a passing league, they're just undermanned.

The biggest problem is what everyone said it would be - the offensive line sabotages everything.

:goodposting:   Depth on the OL and CB is making things worse then it seems. There is a LOT of talent on the team.. One of those years where bad planning regarding the OL, and injuries on the defense are making this team look more flawed then they are.

Most of us commented early on in the pre-season that the OL would determine how far they could go.
I think a lot of the blame has to go on the OC.. seems he had one plan to start the season and regardless of how bad the OL is playing he is sticking to the plan. That is why I about fell off my couch laughing when Aikman kept mentioning how good of a OC he was and would make a great HC.

The running game looked like it was actually working but the OC insists on throwing 70% of the time and thinks having Kirk stand in the pocket for 4 seconds is fine. :wall: 

Edited by snogger
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With the O-Line problems I don't understand why they don't try more roll outs to get Kirk moving.  He seems to have done well in the past in those situations.

 

For yesterday a couple things stood out to me:

  • What the heck kind of call was a 5 yd slant on 4th and 11?  You have Diggs and Thielen who excel at contested catches.  At least go down the field and give them a chance to make a play or get a flag (speaking of which I don't know how you didn't get at least one flag in the endzone for two clear PI's and then the Pats get one on the second play of the following drive for similar defense - terrible officiating).
  • Defense will struggle when you have to have Sherrels at corner.  The first catch and run by Gordon should have been a 5 yd play and then that drive might not end up in a TD and the game is different.  It was a really big play at that time and Sherrels just missed a fairly easy tackle. 

 

Vikes have another chance but next week is close to a must win.  Hopefully the Rams can take down the Bears to keep the Vikes within striking distance for the division with the final game vs Bears. 

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13 minutes ago, Gally said:

With the O-Line problems I don't understand why they don't try more roll outs to get Kirk moving.  He seems to have done well in the past in those situations.

 

For yesterday a couple things stood out to me:

  • What the heck kind of call was a 5 yd slant on 4th and 11?  You have Diggs and Thielen who excel at contested catches.  At least go down the field and give them a chance to make a play or get a flag (speaking of which I don't know how you didn't get at least one flag in the endzone for two clear PI's and then the Pats get one on the second play of the following drive for similar defense - terrible officiating).
  • Defense will struggle when you have to have Sherrels at corner.  The first catch and run by Gordon should have been a 5 yd play and then that drive might not end up in a TD and the game is different.  It was a really big play at that time and Sherrels just missed a fairly easy tackle. 

 

Vikes have another chance but next week is close to a must win.  Hopefully the Rams can take down the Bears to keep the Vikes within striking distance for the division with the final game vs Bears. 

Was a big question for me also, until they showed the replay.. NE had both Diggs and Theilen double covered. Meanwhile Treadwell is coming across the field vs. 1 defender. I think had Kirk lead Treadwell a little further they get a 1st down there.

But when it comes to Treadwell, you basically have to hit him between the numbers for him to catch it, thus 5 yards and punt. :kicksrock:

As for the non-PI.. I kind of understood the first one not being called.. If that ball is back from Theilten, instead of behind the defender it gets called.
The 2nd non-call was ridiculous.. Defender clearly grabs the WR's shoulder as he is going up for the ball.

Edited by snogger

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25 minutes ago, snogger said:

Was a big question for me also, until they showed the replay.. NE had both Diggs and Theilen double covered. Meanwhile Treadwell is coming across the field vs. 1 defender. I think had Kirk lead Treadwell a little further they get a 1st down there.

But when it comes to Treadwell, you basically have to hit him between the numbers for him to catch it, thus 5 yards and punt. :kicksrock:

As for the non-PI.. I kind of understood the first one not being called.. If that ball is back from Theilten, instead of behind the defender it gets called.
The 2nd non-call was ridiculous.. Defender clearly grabs the WR's shoulder as he is going up for the ball.

But with a 4th and 11 situation I would much rather put the play in the hands of Thielen/Diggs (even in double coverage) down the field where they excel at contested balls.  It also gives you a chance at PI.  The defender was all over Treadwell where there was virtually no way he is getting 11 yds.  It was a terrible decision.

 

Cousins was off in that game.  he had Thielen for possibly a long TD and over through him (diving attempt that Thielen usually catches but in stride and it was likely a TD).  There were also a couple drops that didn't help.  All in all I thought the play calling left a lot to be desired.  There were not many shots down the field (I know that can be O-line related but then roll him out of the pocket).  I expected more creativity with JDF and it just hasn't been there. 

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3 hours ago, snogger said:

I think a lot of the blame has to go on the OC.. seems he had one plan to start the season and regardless of how bad the OL is playing he is sticking to the plan. That is why I about fell off my couch laughing when Aikman kept mentioning how good of a OC he was and would make a great HC.

The running game looked like it was actually working but the OC insists on throwing 70% of the time and thinks having Kirk stand in the pocket for 4 seconds is fine. :wall: 

This is just baffling to me. The NFL is so deep into groupthink that everyone just keeps parroting an idea without it having any proven merit. Same as it ever was I guess. It's as if they see a young OC and prematurely declare him a potential HC, regardless of how he's actually performing. DeFilipo hasn't done anything this year to even suggest he's even a good coordinator yet.

As BigJim pointed out, DeFilipo could really use the Pats game plan as a lesson in how to protect your QB behind a bad line. Brady threw what... 5 passes beyond 10 yards? All those misdirections and quick screens kept Brady clean, the chains moving, and wore out the Minn defense. That's what he needs to do more often with Cousins, instead of having him constantly drop back and holding on to the ball waiting for a deep shot that never materializes because the patience wasn't there to develop the running game, play-action, and quick short throws. Everything on the Minn offense seems to be deliberately obvious and develop incredibly slow.

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11 hours ago, BigJim® said:

One thing that caught my eye was how well NE executes quick screens. JDF should take notes, because Viking screens seem slow developing and doomed.  

Part of that is also poor offensive line play. Part of it is Cousins not timing it right and poor ball placement. Part of it is just poor design.

I was watching the Browns a bit yesterday. They ran 3 different screens on the same drive but they were all different. The swing passes to Cook all the same play. 

They have run the same Wr screen to Diggs so many times now I can see it pre snap. Diggs just executes it so well with RAC.

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18 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They were playing Marcus Sherels and Holton Hill at CB at one point. In a passing league, they're just undermanned.

The biggest problem is what everyone said it would be - the offensive line sabotages everything.

There are two sides to this.

The Vikings did not do enough to improve their offensive line. I do think Brian O'Neil has played better than he was expected to. I have some hope for him improving and becoming a starting caliber tackle. Pat Elflien has regressed. Not playing as well as he did as a rookie. Too many failed blocks by him. Remmers and Compton not any better than Elflien or worse than him. Remmers being way overpaid.

The Vikings did draft Mike Hughes and went into the season with one of if not the deepest secondary group in the league. Injuries have led to them needing him but he is also injured. It has taken a lot of injuries to the secondary for them to end up needing to start Sherels. I do think they have used a ton of draft capital and investment in the secondary however. It is a very strong group when they all are healthy.

I think the Vikings talent (before injuries) is better than their record indicates. As things stand right now have to be looking towards next season though. Even if they make the playoffs as a wildcard, I think they have shown that this team isn't good enough to beat the best teams in the league right now.

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21 hours ago, Heatman said:

If Zimmer would only get out of his own way he would be on his way to legendary status. 

What do you mean by this?

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Too bad they couldn't suit Terence Newman up at halftime.

 

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4 hours ago, Statorama said:

I'm kinda getting a bad Jay Cutler vibe with Kirk 

agreed. I'm getting a bad Adam Gase vibe out of Zimmer. stunningly good at times, laughably bad at others. 

we might see a wholesale change at HC in a record number of cities. Minnesota, Cleveland, Cincy, GB, Jets, Dolphins, TB, Carolina, Jax, SF ( cmon now Shanahan is Hue Jackson-bad), Pittsburgh..who else?

 

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I am going go to give Zimmer and DeFilipo a pass on the New England game.  They were in tough with the Patriots getting some good home cooking with every borderline call going their way.  Patriots might have won the game anyway without all the suspect calls but I will never know. 

I am really losing interest in NFL.  Vikings can't seem to ever find the formula needed to build a decent offensive line.  Teams like New England and Seattle find ways to adjust but the Vikings just start off mediocre and just deteriorate over the season.

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6 hours ago, Statorama said:

I'm kinda getting a bad Jay Cutler vibe with Kirk 

 

2 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

agreed. I'm getting a bad Adam Gase vibe out of Zimmer. stunningly good at times, laughably bad at others. 

we might see a wholesale change at HC in a record number of cities. Minnesota, Cleveland, Cincy, GB, Jets, Dolphins, TB, Carolina, Jax, SF ( cmon now Shanahan is Hue Jackson-bad), Pittsburgh..who else?

 

I'm getting a stinky fish bait smell from the Saints fans silly comments in this Vikings thread

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Not too many times we get to say... :thanks: Eagles

  :hifive: 

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18 hours ago, Statorama said:

I'm kinda getting a bad Jay Cutler vibe with Kirk 

Cousins tries on the field and seems to have a quality attitude.  Cutler was a #### and didn't care much of the time.  Bad decisions may be similar but the entire package is nowhere close to the same. 

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13 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

I am going go to give Zimmer and DeFilipo a pass on the New England game.  They were in tough with the Patriots getting some good home cooking with every borderline call going their way.  Patriots might have won the game anyway without all the suspect calls but I will never know. 

I am really losing interest in NFL.  Vikings can't seem to ever find the formula needed to build a decent offensive line.  Teams like New England and Seattle find ways to adjust but the Vikings just start off mediocre and just deteriorate over the season.

Not every call.  The 4th and 1 that Murray got stood up on went the favor of the Vikes.  At the time it was a fairly big call but the two PI's missed in the corner of the endzone followed up by an immediate PI call for NE on the following drive was inexcusable.  Either call them all PI or none of them.  You can't split on those and I think it was the same official as the primary decision maker on those three plays. 

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16 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

 

I'm getting a stinky fish bait smell from the Saints fans silly comments in this Vikings thread

Nah, I've just owned them both in fantasy, which has caused me to watch way more of either of them that I've wanted.

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4 hours ago, Gally said:

Cousins tries on the field and seems to have a quality attitude.  Cutler was a #### and didn't care much of the time.  Bad decisions may be similar but the entire package is nowhere close to the same. 

Very much agreed on the attitude.  Kirk is one of the most stand-up guys in the NFL, and one of the best people in all sports.

Strictly putting my comments in the realm of on the field results.

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There are 2 very large differences between this year and last year.

1) injuries.  Last year the team stayed pretty healthy throughout the year other than Cook.  This year offensive linemen have lost time, Griffen lost time (not injury related but lost time) Barr missed time and the secondary has been decimated.

2) The bounces haven't gone our way this year like they did last year.  How quickly we forget, but there were many times last year as Keenum was scrambling and winging the ball around we went OH #### -------- Phew, the defender dropped the ball.  This year, the balls that were getting dropped last year are getting picked.  A lot of games and seasons will come down to who gets the bounces and who doesn't.

I don't know how to explain the kicking game that is just an overall :shrug:

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5 hours ago, Statorama said:

Very much agreed on the attitude.  Kirk is one of the most stand-up guys in the NFL, and one of the best people in all sports.

Strictly putting my comments in the realm of on the field results.

Well you are also wrong to make this comparison.

Kirk Cousins after 12 games is on pace for 655 pass attempts 467 completions 71.3% completion rate 4653 passing yards 30 TD.

The best season of Cutlers career was in 2008 (his 3rd year with Mike Shanahan) 616 pass attempts 384 completions 62.3% completion rate 4526 passing yards 25 TD

Cutler played so well that year that he got traded to the Bears for a couple first round picks.

Now please take your unsupportable notions elsewhere.

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46 minutes ago, Biabreakable said:

Well you are also wrong to make this comparison.

Kirk Cousins after 12 games is on pace for 655 pass attempts 467 completions 71.3% completion rate 4653 passing yards 30 TD.

The best season of Cutlers career was in 2008 (his 3rd year with Mike Shanahan) 616 pass attempts 384 completions 62.3% completion rate 4526 passing yards 25 TD

Cutler played so well that year that he got traded to the Bears for a couple first round picks.

Now please take your unsupportable notions elsewhere.

Those numbers are close enough that you didn't have to be a snotty little jerk about it

I meant that he's a guy that can put up good stats but can't bring home the gold, much like Cutler.

People forget that Cutler was the Bears all time leader in attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns. Good numbers, but not a guy that could get the Bears over the hump. I fear Cousins may have that same kind of (lack of) results when the games get bigger.

Cousins, like Cutler, does not give me a "big game QB" kind of vibe.  If you disagree, that's cool.

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12 hours ago, Statorama said:

Those numbers are close enough that you didn't have to be a snotty little jerk about it

I meant that he's a guy that can put up good stats but can't bring home the gold, much like Cutler.

People forget that Cutler was the Bears all time leader in attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns. Good numbers, but not a guy that could get the Bears over the hump. I fear Cousins may have that same kind of (lack of) results when the games get bigger.

Cousins, like Cutler, does not give me a "big game QB" kind of vibe.  If you disagree, that's cool.

Bia wasn't being a snotty little jerk. He was saying that you're way off base, and he's right. The numbers aren't close at all. That referenced year for Cutler was probably the best of his career. Cousins has had multiple years in a row better than that one. Cousins career QB rating is higher than Cutler's best rating in one season. Cutler is only leading the Bears in all-time stats because he played a lot of seasons for a team that hasn't had a lot of historical stability at the position.

If you want to just boil it down to guys who are reasonably successful, long term starting QBs who don't win a championship, then that's a much different story and a very long list in which Cutler is just a footnote. So that, along with you admitting that Cousins and Cutler have vastly different personalities, makes your comparison a strange one. Surely you can see why this would come across as insulting and/or trolling on a Minnesota Vikings thread?

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2 minutes ago, -arcK- said:

Bia wasn't being a snotty little jerk. He was saying that you're way off base, and he's right. The numbers aren't close at all. That referenced year for Cutler was probably the best of his career. Cousins has had multiple years in a row better than that one. Cousins career QB rating is higher than Cutler's best rating in one season. Cutler is only leading the Bears in all-time stats because he played a lot of seasons for a team that hasn't had a lot of historical stability at the position.

If you want to just boil it down to guys who are reasonably successful, long term starting QBs who don't win a championship, then that's a much different story and a very long list in which Cutler is just a footnote. So that, along with you admitting that Cousins and Cutler have vastly different personalities, makes your comparison a strange one. Surely you can see why this would come across as insulting and/or trolling on a Minnesota Vikings thread?

If I didn't frame it right, that's on me.  Jay Cutler just stands out as the poster boy for someone with a lot of talent and a lot of promise that for whatever reason could fill up a stat sheet like a demon but couldn't be counted on in crucial situations / games.  I'm coming at it from that vantage point.  Cousins seems like a stats machine that can't be counted on to push his team to the promised land.  As his stats are slightly better I guess you could call him Jay Cutler Plus.

How many times have you watched Cousins hold the damn ball and take a sack when he could have easily chucked it out of bounds or out of the end zone.  There's a lot of nuances to the QB position that he seems to lack.  But he sure can fill out a stats sheet.

I'll reiterate that as a person, Kirk Cousins is amongst the best guys in the NFL.  The Vikes will never have an off the field issue with this guy.  But at the end of the day he's going to break your heart.  Not trolling, not baiting, just an opinion.

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Well for sure Cousins has his faults. There's no denying that. But the insistence on the Cutler comparison still seems odd to me. There are other guys you could have chosen, and I still think you're underplaying the difference between their stats and overplaying the statistical success Cutler had.

As far as breaking hearts, well that's always the case when you don't win a championship. The thing is, a QB is always a guy who can't win the big game until he does. Peyton Manning was largely viewed as disappointing big game QB until he finally got over the hump. Phil Rivers may never win a championship and if so will likely be seen as a prime example of a successful stat compiler who who ultimately never fulfilled his promise. Unless he somehow pulls a rabbit out of his head and surprisingly wins one this year or next, then all is suddenly magically forgiven.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Cutler. On Cousins, though, yes he has a lot to prove. And I'm hoping that the coaching staff starts making it a little easier on him by allowing him to do the things he excels at a lot more often, like play-action and rolling out. But that would require actually running the ball consistently, no matter if it's working or not. In all my years of watching football, no QB has ever pushed his team to the promised land without some kind of successful support system, in whatever form that has taken.

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Cousins is no different from any other QB who would struggle behind this offensive line. That may or may not be able to be improved with better play calling. I would not compare him to Cutler (beyond being a QB) in that Cutler struck me as an unlikeable teammate and generally a player with a horrible attitude and defiant pass decisions. I would compare Cousins to Brees, personally, in that he's not the prototypical QB yet has the attributes to be a difference maker with the right talent around him, and downside of being an unsuccessful stat hound if surrounding talent is bad.

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17 hours ago, Statorama said:

Those numbers are close enough that you didn't have to be a snotty little jerk about it

That was the best season of Cutlers career. His career averages much worse than that.

Even so it is almost 10 percent less completion rate and lower TD rate.

It's a huge difference and you made the claim that the on field performance was comparable.

It isnt.

That you turn to personal attacks on me shows you are trolling not seeking an actual conversation.

Good day to you. 

17 hours ago, Statorama said:

I meant that he's a guy that can put up good stats but can't bring home the gold, much like Cutler.

People forget that Cutler was the Bears all time leader in attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns. Good numbers, but not a guy that could get the Bears over the hump. I fear Cousins may have that same kind of (lack of) results when the games get bigger.

Cousins, like Cutler, does not give me a "big game QB" kind of vibe.  If you disagree, that's cool.

This is just parroting the long time narrative about Cousins in Washington.

The Vikings do not have as good a offensive line as Washington has when they are all healthy. They do have better receivers and defense than Washington had with Cousins.

Maybe Cousins and the Vikings do not win a championship together but Cousins gives them the best chance to of all the options they had available.

All your post is doing is trying to stir doubt about the decision by the Vikings to go with Cousins.

While Cousins isnt perfect I have no doubt he was/is the best QB for the Vikings who gives them the best chance to win games of the options they had available.

So no regrets.

Now slither back to your world where math is fuzzy and old narratives never change.

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