Holton Hill is better at this point in his career than Tray Waynes. I still can't believe the Josh Gordon penalty he gets called for last week. Brady underthows Gordon and Gordon reaches out and grabs Hill to get back to the ball. Hill gets called for PI.They were playing Marcus Sherels and Holton Hill at CB at one point. In a passing league, they're just undermanned.
The biggest problem is what everyone said it would be - the offensive line sabotages everything.
Are we watching the same games . I found this write up about just last night(could probably find similar questionable calls for the past month) that justify the complaints on how bad the Play calling has been:Seriously do not get coaching complaints. Vince Lombardi could not win with Don Coryell as his OC with a line that can't convert 3rd and 1 and can't protect more than 1.5 seconds. To call them soft is frankly an insult to the word soft.
Earlier in that drive they have Kirk sneak through for 3 yards.. Then 3rd and one, instead of going with what worked, play action, then the mentioned failed convert on 4th and 1..The play-calling hasn’t helped much.
Trailing 6-0 in the fourth quarter the Vikings got the ball to the 4-yard line, then had a terrible sequence. They ran up the middle for 2 yards, a conservative call. Then Kirk Cousins threw incomplete. Third down brought another run up the middle for nothing. And on fourth down the Vikings went for it, which was a justifiable call. But the play call wasn’t very creative, nobody was open, and Cousins forced a pass to Kyle Rudolph that was easily batted down.
That came after a fourth-and-1 call in which the Vikings lined up in an extreme tight formation, asking the Seahawks defense to cram the line of scrimmage, and a run to Latavius Murray up the middle was stuffed easily.
Could there be more creativity, motions, etc? Sure, I think there should be. Is it JDF's fault that the Vikes can't get a measly 1 yard running that play? No. I'd love to see a stat of how many times this year the Vikes could not generate a single yard on an X and 1 play. I don't know if JDF is just accommodating Zimmer in calling what he does, or if he's determined creativity only takes away a needed blocker. My only point is this OL would struggle against college defenses, and that is something that changes everything, and everyone around them.Are we watching the same games . I found this write up about just last night(could probably find similar questionable calls for the past month) that justify the complaints on how bad the Play calling has been:
Earlier in that drive they have Kirk sneak through for 3 yards.. Then 3rd and one, instead of going with what worked, play action, then the mentioned failed convert on 4th and 1..
His play calling has been atrocious for weeks.. The talk of him being a "Hot candidate" for a Head coaching job went to his head, and instead of coaching the team he has, he has been trying to impress for the job he wants.. He can take the walk of shame to the unemployment line any time now.
My biggest problem is.. Everyone watching can see the OL sucks.. Yet he continues to call Pocket pass plays that Kirk has 25% chance of surviving long enough to find a receiver and runs up the middle..Could there be more creativity, motions, etc? Sure, I think there should be. Is it JDF's fault that the Vikes can't get a measly 1 yard running that play? No. I'd love to see a stat of how many times this year the Vikes could not generate a single yard on an X and 1 play. I don't know if JDF is just accommodating Zimmer in calling what he does, or if he's determined creativity only takes away a needed blocker. My only point is this OL would struggle against college defenses, and that is something that changes everything, and everyone around them.
That is part of the problem of the OC. We all know the line is terrible so why call plays that accentuate that terribleness? That is all on the OC. Sure it would be nice to be able to pick up 1 yard like most teams but the O-Line is not good enough to get that push. So instead of continuously calling obvious plays out of those formations that get stuffed do something creative and play to what little strengths the O-line has. That is 100% on the OCCould there be more creativity, motions, etc? Sure, I think there should be. Is it JDF's fault that the Vikes can't get a measly 1 yard running that play? No. I'd love to see a stat of how many times this year the Vikes could not generate a single yard on an X and 1 play. I don't know if JDF is just accommodating Zimmer in calling what he does, or if he's determined creativity only takes away a needed blocker. My only point is this OL would struggle against college defenses, and that is something that changes everything, and everyone around them.
I realize I'm completely flipping my typical script dating back to saying Ponder/Tarvaris stunk (visibly) despite having an excuse (no OL, no surrounding talent). To my eyeballs, they did not have it. I'm not ready to go there with coaching. Truly, I think it is impossible to measure capabilities of an OC, and what he might be able to scheme with NFL-caliber talent, when he's hamstrung with an OL that can neither pass protect nor run block a bit. Not even a little bit. To be fair, I think you'd also have to conclude Dalvin can't run, Cousins can't pass, etc. Everything ties back to an inescapable fatal flaw in this team. If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.That is part of the problem of the OC. We all know the line is terrible so why call plays that accentuate that terribleness? That is all on the OC. Sure it would be nice to be able to pick up 1 yard like most teams but the O-Line is not good enough to get that push. So instead of continuously calling obvious plays out of those formations that get stuffed do something creative and play to what little strengths the O-line has. That is 100% on the OC
The best coaches see what the players they have can and cannot do then adapt to put them in positions to play to their strengths. If the coach continuously puts players in positions that play to their weaknesses they will always look terrible. Obviously the O-line is not very good but I have not seen any mis-direction plays and very little roll out/moving pocket plays. Everything is very easy to read for what they are trying to do. Very little creativity. Last night was a perfect example with 1st and goal from the 4. Two runs out of run formations and two passes out of spread formations. I could easily call what each play was going to be. It was telegraphed. That is all on the OC.I realize I'm completely flipping my typical script dating back to saying Ponder/Tarvaris stunk (visibly) despite having an excuse (no OL, no surrounding talent). To my eyeballs, they did not have it, and I think that has proved out. I'm not ready to go there with coaching. Truly, I think it is impossible to measure capabilities of an OC, what he might be able to scheme with NFL-caliber talent, when he has a OL that can neither pass protect nor run block a bit. Not even a little bit. To be fair, I think you'd also have to conclude Dalvin can't run, Cousins can't pass, etc. Everything ties back to an inescapable fatal flaw in this team. If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.
Totally agree on lack of creativity. I had the same complaint after the Chicago game. The question is whether this guy deserves to be fired for not solving the rubik's cube that is our offensive line. I don't think he does, and would prefer seeing how he does with actual talent, but that's just me.The best coaches see what the players they have can and cannot do then adapt to put them in positions to play to their strengths. If the coach continuously puts players in positions that play to their weaknesses they will always look terrible. Obviously the O-line is not very good but I have not seen any mis-direction plays and very little roll out/moving pocket plays. Everything is very easy to read for what they are trying to do. Very little creativity. Last night was a perfect example with 1st and goal from the 4. Two runs out of run formations and two passes out of spread formations. I could easily call what each play was going to be. It was telegraphed. That is all on the OC.
I think he deserves to be held accountable (not necessarily fired yet) because of no creativity and not figuring out how to play to the strengths (what little strength there is) for the players he has. Coaches should adapt to their players or acquire players that fit their schemes. Be flexible and adapt. I don't see JDF doing that.Totally agree on lack of creativity. I had the same complaint after the Chicago game. The question is whether this guy deserves to be fired for not solving the rubik's cube that is our offensive line. I don't think he does, and would prefer seeing how he does with actual talent, but that's just me.
Where is the criticism of Spielman in all this? For the hundredth time, everyone knew the o-line was a problem and he did little to fix it in free agency and admitted he was caught pants down in the draft.
Oh there is plenty of blame to go around. Spielman is an off season target because that's when he is "on the field". Right now, the players on the field and play calling are the target because they are front and center to try and win with what you got. There are definite deficiencies in place due to the front office but that is gripe for the off season..hahaAndy Dufresne said:Where is the criticism of Spielman in all this? For the hundredth time, everyone knew the o-line was a problem and he did little to fix it in free agency and admitted he was caught pants down in the draft.
Can't fire something that doesn't exist..Can we fire the Oline too?
Vikings fired OC John DeFilippo.
The Vikings had big expectations on offense after signing Kirk Cousins this offseason, and they simply have not met them, especially as of late. The final straw was a disheartening loss to the Seahawks on Monday night in which Minnesota did not score until deep into garbage time. Considered an up-and-comer when the Vikings hired him, it will be interesting to see where DeFilippo lands.
Well, if we want to travel down that road I'm with you.. My opinion is worth less then but....Andy Dufresne said:Where is the criticism of Spielman in all this? For the hundredth time, everyone knew the o-line was a problem and he did little to fix it in free agency and admitted he was caught pants down in the draft.
To illustrate how effective OC can adapt his team personnel, Carolina Panthers are the best example with atrocious OL at the beginning and yet their OC Norv Turner learned to adapt to play whoever they have. He utilizes McCaffrey effectively especially in wheel routes and screen passes. I really did think Cook could had been utilized in the same fashion but alas, DeFlippo insisted on Cousins to rely on Diggs and Thielen and ignore other capable offensive playmakers.BigJim® said:I realize I'm completely flipping my typical script dating back to saying Ponder/Tarvaris stunk (visibly) despite having an excuse (no OL, no surrounding talent). To my eyeballs, they did not have it. I'm not ready to go there with coaching. Truly, I think it is impossible to measure capabilities of an OC, and what he might be able to scheme with NFL-caliber talent, when he's hamstrung with an OL that can neither pass protect nor run block a bit. Not even a little bit. To be fair, I think you'd also have to conclude Dalvin can't run, Cousins can't pass, etc. Everything ties back to an inescapable fatal flaw in this team. If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.
So you're calling Super Bowl in 2018?If the Vikings are ever going to win their first Super Bowl, it will never be as a favorite. The fate, the karma, the fortunate "energy" just simply aren't there. The past bears this out. They've fielded the "best" team in the league, what? 6-8 times in their history? Been favored in how many playoff games they've lost? Not going to happen. The weight of history crushes these aspirations.
Their first Super Bowl is going to be a surprise. The fans and media won't expect it. They will have long been written off as a second tier, one-and-done team even before they back into the playoffs. They'll be the wildcard team that wins 3 brutal road games as heavy dogs against elite opponents only to advance to the Super Bowl against NFL royalty in a game in which they will surely be trounced.
Every game will be a formality for their foes. These powerhouse teams will be advancing to play the next opponent, dismissing this bunch of losers from the Great White North, these backwards denizens of flyover country, with their ridiculous fans and the horns on their heads and that big, loud, obnoxious one in their stadium, the team that always finds a way to disappoint. The team that has never won the big one and never will. No one will take them seriously.
Until the Vikings grab them by the balls, squeeze the #### out of them, and forcefully demand respect. They will be the team that suffocates their opponents MVP QBs with their front 4 and punishes the All-Pro receivers and RBs with LBs and DBs that make them pay with devastating brutality every time they touch the ball. The team that does just enough on offense, that scores the winning TD on a 4th and goal fade from the 9-yard line, down by 5 with 20 seconds left on the clock, shocking the world to hoist a Lombardi.
And then the team that never will becomes the team that just did.
It will be interesting to see how much the playcalling changes with Stefanski. Remember, he was interviewed for the OC position last year before Defillipo was hired and Zimmer denied him going to the Giants to be the OC for Shurmer.@RapSheet: Expect QB coach Kevin Stefanski to call plays https://twitter.com/rapsheet/status/1072535288679931909
Did you notice that the defensive line was getting pushed back on a lot of the Seahawks running plays?So last night I DVR'd the game, intending to watch it after I got home from work at 11:30 CT. Coworkers told me it was an awful game, so I conceded and saw the score before I came home. Decided to watch the game anyway, cuz I'm a rube and a masochist (pretty much 2 synonyms for "Vikings fan").
It was eye-opening watching the game, knowing what was going to happen. Like watching film. Emotion was removed, and I used a more critical eye than normal. What I saw was encouraging, especially after finding out JDF got fired today.
This team is this close. The defense is dominant.
It's really not about having it both ways. A contending team can't have this OL, plain and simple. It can have a defense that slips from 1st to 6th. JMHO, it's about having manageable weaknesses, and having an OL that functions is a significant need. I can't claim to say who the Vikes should have taken at OL. I would hope a scouting department would. You said it yourself... you can't get OL via FA, and when you do you are paying guys like Remmers/Rieff $10M per. I would like to think Zimmer has an eye to select functioning CB in mid-rounds... seems a bit wasteful to use his eye on 1st round players when there are bigger needs.While I wondered at the draft why the Vikings did what they did, with some good offensive linemen available to them, I think Mike Hughes was a very good pick. He played great and even though he was only a rookie, the defense has missed having him in the lineup. With further injuries leading to Sherels playing defense, I think it is clear that the Vikings did need depth at the position. Even with the Hughes pick, they have been undermanned at the position. I am not sure all of these defensive backs will be with the team next season either.
You guys can't have it both ways.
Yeah, but that's part of the problem. You hire a chef and you expect him to have the skill to make a decent meal with whatever you give him. Unfortunately, JDF is the Wolfgang Puck type that said "#### that, I refuse to work under these conditions" instead of the Bobby Flay type that said "Spam huh... Interesting, might be kinda fun" and then does something weird and unorthodox to make something good anyway.So you're calling Super Bowl in 2018?
I'm not a big fan of the JDF firing... I feel like there are bigger issues and there's just no way to know if it was a good/bad move. OTOH, I wouldn't rule out that there were deeper issues, based on the peculiar comments from Zimmer in recent weeks. It was odd for a HC to call out how his own team was being run. Possibly, there was even undermining going on if JDF took exception to that public scrutiny and called vanilla runs, only to show they don't work with this OL. We'll never know. It's just really hard not to come out disappointed that we hired an alleged chef and asked him to do his magic cooking a gormet meal with Spam.
I'd take him in a heartbeat as OL coach.I didn't expect DeFilippo to be fired before the end of the season. It's tough to defend him or argue the decision though. He just wasn't ready for this yet. Maybe he will be at some point in the future. Pretty sure Mike Tice is available if they want to bring in someone.
This. I think Sparano’s death had an impact on the performance of the oline. He was always a great motivator and he had the line over-performing last year.It's really not about having it both ways. A contending team can't have this OL, plain and simple. It can have a defense that slips from 1st to 6th. JMHO, it's about having manageable weaknesses, and having an OL that functions is a significant need. I can't claim to say who the Vikes should have taken at OL. I would hope a scouting department would. You said it yourself... you can't get OL via FA, and when you do you are paying guys like Remmers/Rieff $10M per. I would like to think Zimmer has an eye to select functioning CB in mid-rounds... seems a bit wasteful to use his eye on 1st round players when there are bigger needs.
Yeah. It was pretty obvious. I was worried about that when we lost him then. I was hoping maybe they'd rally around him with a whole "win one for the gipper" mentality, but it hasn't happened.This. I think Sparano’s death had an impact on the performance of the oline. He was always a great motivator and he had the line over-performing last year.
Never say never.So you're calling Super Bowl in 2018?
I don’t agree with the firing. He is a scapegoat for Kirks inability to execute the game plan.I didn't expect DeFilippo to be fired before the end of the season. It's tough to defend him or argue the decision though. He just wasn't ready for this yet. Maybe he will be at some point in the future. Pretty sure Mike Tice is available if they want to bring in someone.
What if the game plan wasn't executable because the personnel they have (O-line primarily) wasn't suited for the game plan he created? Part of being an OC is developing a game plan for the players you have (Cousins included). So if the OC designed a gameplan that his QB could not execute, doesn't that mean most of the blame should go to the OC for putting in a game plan his personnel couldn't execute?I don’t agree with the firing. He is a scapegoat for Kirks inability to execute the game plan.
He will make a fine OC for some other team.
I think this is a fair point... OC's should call plays in consideration of talent/weaknesses. OTOH there could be something to what Donny said - that possibly Kirk was calling a lot of audibles because he did not like plays being called, which too is probably based on his perception of what he saw from the defense pre-snap and whether the called play could work. There's just too many unknown variables that go into assigning blame. That's the main reason I'm lukewarm on the firing. Maybe it is a great firing, maybe it will be one that is regretted. I just don't know how anyone can be judged on what this offense does with this OL. The only thing I know is this OL should be fired.What if the game plan wasn't executable because the personnel they have (O-line primarily) wasn't suited for the game plan he created? Part of being an OC is developing a game plan for the players you have (Cousins included). So if the OC designed a gameplan that his QB could not execute, doesn't that mean most of the blame should go to the OC for putting in a game plan his personnel couldn't execute?
Coaches should put their players in a place to play to their strengths not away from their strengths. That is on the OC.
You make an interesting point about ZImmers abilities to identify defensive back talent more successfully than he can identify offensive linemen. Holton Hill has looked pretty good for a rookie in my opinion.It's really not about having it both ways. A contending team can't have this OL, plain and simple. It can have a defense that slips from 1st to 6th. JMHO, it's about having manageable weaknesses, and having an OL that functions is a significant need. I can't claim to say who the Vikes should have taken at OL. I would hope a scouting department would. You said it yourself... you can't get OL via FA, and when you do you are paying guys like Remmers/Rieff $10M per. I would like to think Zimmer has an eye to select functioning CB in mid-rounds... seems a bit wasteful to use his eye on 1st round players when there are bigger needs.
It could be their undoing, but I think they'll outrun this debacle. There was definitely a run on OL from the end of the 1st through the 4th - I get that targeted guys were gone. But the run never stopped and when the dust settled they were a day late and a dollar short. It's sort of inexcusable though. They see the league wide need, they know the economics of paying a horrible Remmers $10M. They should know the value of OL at draft time. I don't expect the historic philosophy to go beyond 2018. It's inconceivable Wilf pays Cousins' deal with this OL.The problem here is a philosophical one. From listening to Spielman and Zimmer talk about the draft for several seasons now, neither of them seem to think offensive linemen are good enough to use a 1st round draft pick on. Spielman will talk about their analytics and how their research supports that view about the relative value of offensive linemen and other football players.
FWIW, I reconsidered that example when I remembered the crowd. Spam's awesome regardless, am I right?"Spam huh... Interesting, might be kinda fun" and then does something weird and unorthodox to make something good anyway.
Does this mean Rudolph will become relevant again? Currently have Ian Thomas starting over him.Biabreakable said:
OTOH there could be something to what Donny said - that possibly Kirk was calling a lot of audibles because he did not like plays being called, which too is probably based on his perception of what he saw from the defense pre-snap and whether the called play could work.
I don’t agree with the firing. He is a scapegoat for Kirks inability to execute the game plan.
He will make a fine OC for some other team.
Maybe.Does this mean Rudolph will become relevant again? Currently have Ian Thomas starting over him.
This is excellent read on examining Vikings' offensive issue under microscope. It perfectly illustrated what I have said all the long on DeFilippo's failure to use Vikings' offensive playmakers in Cook, Rudolph, and other players and made Cousins to be heavily reliance on Diggs and Thielen. Failure to adapt in latter end of season is DeFilippo's downfall. It doesn't matter if Vikings' OL stinks... The best coaches will find a way and adapt regardless (i.e. Turner / Panthers and O'Brien / Texans).
If Vikings' offense somehow "improves" in final 3 games (they are off to good start vs. Dolphins in today's game... albeit Dolphins' medicore defense) and fail to get into the playoff, I hope Vikings and Zimmer retain Stefanski as OC next year with investment in strengthening their OL via free agency / draft. And I hope Zimmer and Stefanski talk Cousins into being game manager to utilize his offensive playmakers while Vikings defensive team to control the game (i.e. Seattle Seahawks' game script in their only Super Bowl championship year).Zimmer’s desire for a run-heavy attack to complement his elite defense doesn’t match up with his team’s build on offense or DeFilippo’s strength as a passing game designer. Lord only knows how promoted QBs coach Kevin Stefanski is going to satisfy his boss’s insatiable appetite for running plays. But one thing he can establish (and something I mentioned before the Packers win, as well as something DeFilippo got away from the past two weeks) is play-action.
An outstanding rushing attack helps the play-action passing game, but as I often discuss with podcast partner and eggnog connoisseur Andy Benoit, it’s not a prerequisite. When Kirk Cousins was one of the most effective play-action passers in football, Washington didn’t have an elite rushing attack to set it up (though that was an issue with their crummy running backs as opposed to their O-line). You’re probably not sucking the linebackers up on third-and-18, or when trailing by 10 points with three minutes left. But play-action can still be effective on first down. A year ago, the Vikings led the league in play-action frequency, using it on 30% of their snaps (according to Football Outsiders). So far this season, they rank 26th in play-action frequency (20%). With Cousins at quarterback and two elite receivers on the outside, that’s no good.