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2022 Minnesota Vikings (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Heatman
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BigJim®
Footballguy
This feels like a trap.... and for the record I said "I would have sworn"... I'm not reporting anything. Are you saying CBs have been forbidden from looking for the ball ever since his arrival?
ETA: I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Xavier Rhodes transformed from a player who had 5 INTs in a Zimmer Scheme in 2016 to a player who can't know where the ball is - unless it is a scheme change? I'd already previously posted the 2020 quote from Rhodes re: the main difference in the Colt's scheme: "This one is more zone, eyes to the quarterback,” Rhodes said. “That’s going to be the main difference for me, is being able to play looking at the quarterback, rather than looking at the man.”
ETA: I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Xavier Rhodes transformed from a player who had 5 INTs in a Zimmer Scheme in 2016 to a player who can't know where the ball is - unless it is a scheme change? I'd already previously posted the 2020 quote from Rhodes re: the main difference in the Colt's scheme: "This one is more zone, eyes to the quarterback,” Rhodes said. “That’s going to be the main difference for me, is being able to play looking at the quarterback, rather than looking at the man.”
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Its not a trap. I am trying to understand your grievance.
I was googling 2018 Zimmer defensive scheme and there is a lot of talk about his scheme being one of the most complicated defenses in the league and also that the players are experienced enough to run it. That the coaches do not have to focus as much on basics and teaching fundamental stuff like where to line up because of the players experience at that time. In 2018 they still had Newman although he was being phased out.
So if that is what you are talking about then I can understand.
I don't think Mike Zimmer is an idiot and I very much doubt he is overloading young players with these things instead of focusing on the basics that the rookies still have not mastered yet. That was not the case in 2018 where ZImmer had experienced corners across the board. We know both Trey Waynes and Mackenzie Alexander did not start playing at a higher level in the defense until their 3rd season with the team. Because the Vikings had other players to start at that time, this wasn't exposed as much as it might have been, but that is not the case right now.
So maybe its that the players are not experienced enough to run the scheme the way Mike Zimmer wants to yet and that the scheme the Vikings are running right now is simplified and because of that its not working well.
To me that seems more plausible than saying Mike ZImmer makes Xavier Rhodes a bad player because the scheme is too complex for him.
I was googling 2018 Zimmer defensive scheme and there is a lot of talk about his scheme being one of the most complicated defenses in the league and also that the players are experienced enough to run it. That the coaches do not have to focus as much on basics and teaching fundamental stuff like where to line up because of the players experience at that time. In 2018 they still had Newman although he was being phased out.
So if that is what you are talking about then I can understand.
I don't think Mike Zimmer is an idiot and I very much doubt he is overloading young players with these things instead of focusing on the basics that the rookies still have not mastered yet. That was not the case in 2018 where ZImmer had experienced corners across the board. We know both Trey Waynes and Mackenzie Alexander did not start playing at a higher level in the defense until their 3rd season with the team. Because the Vikings had other players to start at that time, this wasn't exposed as much as it might have been, but that is not the case right now.
So maybe its that the players are not experienced enough to run the scheme the way Mike Zimmer wants to yet and that the scheme the Vikings are running right now is simplified and because of that its not working well.
To me that seems more plausible than saying Mike ZImmer makes Xavier Rhodes a bad player because the scheme is too complex for him.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
New Corners, New Coach = New Coverage for the Vikings ?
So according to this Zimmer already transitioned to more zone coverage last year. Last year they did not cover nearly as well as they have in previous seasons.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't want to debate why it's raining horse dung with equally depressed Viking fans. I just don't think there is much to debate when a team invested what the Vikes have at CB in recent drafts. The system is incompatible with the players, or the players are incompatible with the system, or the players and the system are irrelevant because they require too much of other positions. No doubt it's a combination of things, and what they invested into Rhodes, Wayne and Alexander is already down the drain. It is whatever it is.
Up until about midway last season, I was a Zimmer bobo. He's not a bad coach, and I definitely don't think he's an idiot. Now that the honeymoon is over though, I'm becoming more aware what it actually costs a franchise to keep his defense 'not horrible.' It requires too much to be considered a genius scheme - so much so IMHO that it makes it impossible to be the type of team he wants to be on both sides of the ball.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
There was some talk this offseason about how difficult it is to maintain a top level defense in the NFL. Most teams cannot sustain top 10 defense for more than a few seasons in a row. Because of personnel changes and so many other random factors. As you say Jim for a defense to really stay on top like this requires constant investment into it which means cutting corners somewhere else on the team and doing so may not be the most optimal path to winning a championship at some point in a NFL dominated by offense and especially passing offense right now.
So all of that circles back to the decision to sign Kirk Cousins. With a rookie QB contract they could afford to overspend on the defensive side of the ball. They cant do that now with Cousins contract.
I think philosophically prioritizing investment in the QB position makes sense, Kirk just cant cut the mustard. Most QBs can't.
Now the bill has come due. Thinking back on Zimmers comments during the draft its light hearted, but with how the season has gone so far it reveals that Zimmer did not have confidence in the players they had and wanted to use more draft capital on that side of the ball if he could.
After Jeffersons game yesterday I think they made the right choice in that case.
Anyhow still a lot of games to be played. The defense is at the bottom of the league right now so they can't get much worse.
So all of that circles back to the decision to sign Kirk Cousins. With a rookie QB contract they could afford to overspend on the defensive side of the ball. They cant do that now with Cousins contract.
I think philosophically prioritizing investment in the QB position makes sense, Kirk just cant cut the mustard. Most QBs can't.
Now the bill has come due. Thinking back on Zimmers comments during the draft its light hearted, but with how the season has gone so far it reveals that Zimmer did not have confidence in the players they had and wanted to use more draft capital on that side of the ball if he could.
After Jeffersons game yesterday I think they made the right choice in that case.
Anyhow still a lot of games to be played. The defense is at the bottom of the league right now so they can't get much worse.
BigJim®
Footballguy
We'll just need to agree to disagree. Year after year Zimmer/Spielman have had a choice... take pressure off the CBs by strengthening other components of the defense, or draft CBs and allow other components of the defense to languish/age. When healthy, the existing defense is a combination of top-paid players and 1st round CBs, and it lacks depth to overcome injuries that other NFL teams overcome. Or, the scheme is too much for anyone but a star veteran to execute. That's too much to need for a genius scheme. Any scheme should work with superstar players. A true genius scheme can't require drafting and signing of Picasso's to do paint by numbers.Biabreakable said:
I will agree that it made no sense to sign a statuesque QB without plans to make OL a team strength. Drafting a rookie QB in the 1st would not change anything in terms of building a contender (see Ponder, TJack, Bridgewater), and it is a rinse/repeat use of draft capital that can't be used to strengthen the trenches. Teams who successfully draft rookie QBs put them in a position to succeed. Please take this in a light hearted way, but it's humorous to me that you view Sunday as validating of Jefferson. This is an 0-3 team, with no hope on the horizon of making the type of trench improvements that will be needed to compete in the NFL. How is "we can't hold off a 3 man rush to win a game even when the WR goes for 170' validating? Worse, it's all coming full circle as it does every 5 years with this team. Now people are talking about drafting a QB to once again put behind a terrible OL, using draft capital on that position. This team may never fix the achilles heel.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I understand where you are coming from as far as focusing on improving the offensive line as the priority. We have been over that several times now. I pretty much agree with you philosophically on that. The practicality of doing that hasn't always been there though. It would have made sense to take Will Hernandez in 2018 instead of Mike Hughes. That is the only specific time I can think of where they passed on a guard when they shouldn't have. I am not sure how good Hernandez has been so far but he has started all 35 games he could have so far.
I don't think the offensive linemen available at pick 22 were good enough to pass up Jefferson. The ones who maybe were had already been taken by then. As we talked about before my choice would have been Gross-Matos or Ross Blaylock. Both of these guys have only played limited snaps for their teams so far. I think either of them could make an impact on the defense, especially Blaylock as I don't think the Vikings defensive tackles are very good right now. I have some hope for Watts.
How do you feel about the way Reiff, ONeil and Bradbury have played? I think Bradbury has really improved after a year of seasoning and Reiff has been doing ok. Its more the guards that are an issue right now. I love the depth they have at tackle. Its more depth than they need. If one of those players could play guard they might be in better shape right now. As you know they were using Cleveland there in training camp to see if he could do it better than the guys they have at guard.
He isn't playing yet, but they did draft Cleveland in the 2nd round and I think he will be a starter eventually. Likely replacing Reiff in a year or two.
As far as the defense goes they have been using high picks on defensive backs while using 3rd round or later picks on defensive linemen, Hunter is an elite DE and they only used a 3rd round pick on him. Griffen 4th round pick. Ifeadi Odenigbo 7th round pick, Stephen Weatherly 7th round pick. So there is where the Vikings have been able to develop guys into good players with lower investment on the defensive side of the ball. That said Anthony Harris was a UDFA and has developed into a top safety with this coaching staff. Holton Hill is also a UDFA so there have been some wins there as well. The difference being many 1st round picks used on corners. They haven't used a 1st round pick on a defensive lineman since Sharrif Floyd, but they have had a lot of success there with their later picks instead. The Vikings do badly need better play from their DTs but they had tried to address that when they signed Michael Pierce who is not playing because of Covid.
encaitar
Footballguy
I think there are multiple issues that I find fault with. The biggest one is lack of talent, especially along the offensive line. That's on Spielman.
We have quite possibly the least talented offensive line in the league. Reiff has been average his entire career and is immensely overpaid for what he brings. Bradbury is better this year, but nowhere near the level you'd expect for a first round center historically. O'Neill has been our best lineman, but his contract is coming up and I can't see how he's worth $10M/year+(although it's hard to tell given the lack of talent around him).
The last Minnesota Viking offensive lineman to make more than one pro bowl was Steve Hutchinson. The last offensive lineman we drafted to make more than one pro bowl was Matt Birk. The last o-lineman of ours to even make a pro bowl was Matt Kalil in 2012 as an injury replacement as a rookie(which was his only decent season with the team). We've literally gone 8 years without an o-lineman good enough to make a pro bowl. 8 years where every year we've said how bad our o-line is and there is no focus on improving it.
In Spielman's time as the head of our draft(since his hiring in 2006), we have drafted 2 linemen who have made one pro bowl each.... in 15 years. In a league where the offensive line is perhaps the most important part of the football team, outside of maybe 6-7 QBs in the league.
We're talent deficient in a lot of other areas, mostly wrt depth, but nothing is as glaring and obvious as our offensive line. It's should've gotten Spielman fired 5 years ago, yet we keep giving him more money and extending his contract. I have zero faith in this team being able to win the SB as long as Rick is in charge of our talent acquisition.
I'm frustrated with Zimmer this year for sure(especially his apparent refusal to try and make the game easier for the rookies), but historically he's had good defenses. I think he can probably grow this one into a good one too given time, but it won't matter(in terms of winning the ultimate prize) if we continually have a below average offensive line.
We have quite possibly the least talented offensive line in the league. Reiff has been average his entire career and is immensely overpaid for what he brings. Bradbury is better this year, but nowhere near the level you'd expect for a first round center historically. O'Neill has been our best lineman, but his contract is coming up and I can't see how he's worth $10M/year+(although it's hard to tell given the lack of talent around him).
The last Minnesota Viking offensive lineman to make more than one pro bowl was Steve Hutchinson. The last offensive lineman we drafted to make more than one pro bowl was Matt Birk. The last o-lineman of ours to even make a pro bowl was Matt Kalil in 2012 as an injury replacement as a rookie(which was his only decent season with the team). We've literally gone 8 years without an o-lineman good enough to make a pro bowl. 8 years where every year we've said how bad our o-line is and there is no focus on improving it.
In Spielman's time as the head of our draft(since his hiring in 2006), we have drafted 2 linemen who have made one pro bowl each.... in 15 years. In a league where the offensive line is perhaps the most important part of the football team, outside of maybe 6-7 QBs in the league.
We're talent deficient in a lot of other areas, mostly wrt depth, but nothing is as glaring and obvious as our offensive line. It's should've gotten Spielman fired 5 years ago, yet we keep giving him more money and extending his contract. I have zero faith in this team being able to win the SB as long as Rick is in charge of our talent acquisition.
I'm frustrated with Zimmer this year for sure(especially his apparent refusal to try and make the game easier for the rookies), but historically he's had good defenses. I think he can probably grow this one into a good one too given time, but it won't matter(in terms of winning the ultimate prize) if we continually have a below average offensive line.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
Has anyone heard anything about Hunter?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Former NFL doctor speculates that season-ending surgery could be ‘on the table’ for Vikings star Danielle Hunter
Zimmer said Hunter was seeking a 2nd opinion about his neck injury and if he will have surgery or not.
Zimmer said Hunter was seeking a 2nd opinion about his neck injury and if he will have surgery or not.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Another tidbit of interest was Rick Spielman said that Ezra Cleveland may be playing soon. I assume he would take over at left guard and Dozier would move to right guard.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
If they don't win this week, I say shut him down!!Biabreakable said:
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Even if they do win this week, shut him down. Obviously first and foremost for his own health. But secondly, this team is not going anywhere.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I don't think this team is going to tank games regardless so win or not I think Hunter will only play if he is fully healthy. From the sound of things he may need surgery and if he has the surgery then he isn't likely to come back this season.
Its been awhile waiting for this other shoe to drop but this is kind of what I was afraid of as soon as they traded for Yannick Ngakoue. The last time they made a move like that was when Teddy got hurt and they traded for Sam Bradford.
I get what you guys are saying. tank for a high draft pick to take a QB, I just dont think Zimmer is going to do anything that won't help them win games.
They might as well play the young players though and develop them since they are losing anyways. That is the sense I am getting from Spielman making statements about the starting roster that the coaches won't do.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
By intentionally losing games. For example by shutting down some of their best players like Hunter instead of playing them if they are healthy.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Control?
No. Any given Sunday.
However by not putting their best players on the field would be a way to increase the chances that they lose.
If fans want the Vikings to lose games then they should just hope the Vikings continue to try winning, because thats working so far. Shutting down Hunter based on if the Vikings win week 4 or not would be a tanking move if Hunter is healthy enough to return at some point.
Based on Hunter seeking a 2nd opinion it does not look good for Hunter playing this season anyways.
snogger
Footballguy
Glad they got the 1st win over with.. but still so many why moments.. One in particular drove me nuts.
4th quarter, up by 2 scores.. Texans in a 4th and 1oth inside the 20.. and Zimmer rushes 3 and drops back into coverage.. only to give up the TD any ways!
With our "Covering" team... giving any QB time to have a drink, eat something and find a WR is just dumb.
Cook was looking great, hopefully they carry on that to the next game.
4th quarter, up by 2 scores.. Texans in a 4th and 1oth inside the 20.. and Zimmer rushes 3 and drops back into coverage.. only to give up the TD any ways!
With our "Covering" team... giving any QB time to have a drink, eat something and find a WR is just dumb.
Cook was looking great, hopefully they carry on that to the next game.
encaitar
Footballguy
Couple of other times were really frustrating too. Twice the Texans fell back into coverage on a 3rd and long and rushed only 3 and STILL got a sack. That can't happen. I don't care how good those 3 rushers are, if you outnumber them in blocking by 2 they can't take your QB down. Unacceptable.
Also, we were dominating the edges all game and for some reason in the 3rd we stopped calling plays to the edges of the defense? Thank god we went back to the it, but it was baffling why we changed for a good part of the 3rd.
Some good thoughts though.... Cook is really good. Can't say I'm ecstatic about spending big for a RB, but he might actually be worth it.
They finally got a 1st round WR pick right. IMO. Jefferson looks to be the real deal.
Our young CBs had some mistakes, but they did look marginally better this game. There is some hope there.
Ngakoue got some pressure on Watson yesterday. For the most part he's been pretty pedestrian this year, but yesterday he showed some flashes. Hope he continues to get comfortable and make some big difference making plays.
Also, we were dominating the edges all game and for some reason in the 3rd we stopped calling plays to the edges of the defense? Thank god we went back to the it, but it was baffling why we changed for a good part of the 3rd.
Some good thoughts though.... Cook is really good. Can't say I'm ecstatic about spending big for a RB, but he might actually be worth it.
They finally got a 1st round WR pick right. IMO. Jefferson looks to be the real deal.
Our young CBs had some mistakes, but they did look marginally better this game. There is some hope there.
Ngakoue got some pressure on Watson yesterday. For the most part he's been pretty pedestrian this year, but yesterday he showed some flashes. Hope he continues to get comfortable and make some big difference making plays.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Zimmer on Performances of Rookie Cornerbacks, Linebackers Adjusting Without Barr, Smith Jr.'s Lack of Catches and More
Zimmer is in a noticeably better mood here. He points out that the Cowboys were 1-15 Aikmans first season. With a lot of young players who had to learn how to play together before being good. Thats where they are at right now with the corners but he is seeing improvement in their play.
Zimmer is in a noticeably better mood here. He points out that the Cowboys were 1-15 Aikmans first season. With a lot of young players who had to learn how to play together before being good. Thats where they are at right now with the corners but he is seeing improvement in their play.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Know your audience Zim... that was the season before the Herschel trade created a Dallas dynasty.
whole-show
Footballguy
I don’t think anyone said to tank the season but saying if we started 0-4 the season is pretty much lost at that point. Do they sneak into the playoffs? Maybe, but are they really going to go anywhere? I think what people were saying is with this team at this point yes maybe we sneak into the playoffs, but that’s about the farthest they are going to go so why not do what’s right for one of your best players and have him shut down and get right for the next season. Obviously the first doctor must have said he needed surgery and why he’s getting a second opinion as to not have the surgery, or maybe I’m completely wrong and that’s not what the first dr said and if so I take back what I said. Let’s just hope they do what’s best for Hunter.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Dang. I didnt even think of that.BigJim® said:
Know your audience Zim... that was the season before the Herschel trade created a Dallas dynasty.
Thanks for reminding me.
I get a few things out of him saying that. One there are going to be growing pains with these players this year. two the fans should be prepared for that and three he thinks this will eventually lead to a strong foundation of players they can contend with.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree that Hunters health is the priority.whole-show said:
I haven't heard anything new about that yet. I think he is still mulling over the decision.
There have been tons of Vikings media types and so on talking about the Vikings tanking, so sorry if I was hearing that when responding to you.
Courtney Cronin for example talking about the Vikings blowing the whole thing up before they even find out what they got.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Eric Kendricks has missed two practices now with a foot injury. He is the glue that holds this defense together. Will be really difficult against Seattle no mater what but without Kendricks could be a disaster.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Most likely. But without Kendricks it could be worse.
A few Brave souls like Brian Baldinger think they have a chance.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Heart breaking loss. They missed it by that much
I would have tried to kick the field goal but I don't hate the call to go for it. The Vikings were aggressive the whole game on these calls and converted some earlier.
It was nice to see Lynch playing. I thought he did okay. They could really use some better play inside.
They actually caused a couple coverage sacks. Its progress.
I would have tried to kick the field goal but I don't hate the call to go for it. The Vikings were aggressive the whole game on these calls and converted some earlier.
It was nice to see Lynch playing. I thought he did okay. They could really use some better play inside.
They actually caused a couple coverage sacks. Its progress.
simsarge
Footballguy
Pretty much an exact measurement too.
In my heart I knew as soon as they opted to go for it they were screwed.
The defense played tons better, but the offense without Cook seemed stale and predictable.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
This seemed like a game where they did not want to throw the ball and they did control TOP which is smart against their offense.
It almost worked.
snogger
Footballguy
IMO, that is where Cook would have made the difference.. he tends to see those little things and makes the correct choice...
Torn on going for it.. I get you want to put the "Nail in the coffin" and, with a healthy Cook, I'm 100% behind going for it.
But just felt they needed to take the FG there... make Seattle score a TD and convert a 2 Point attempt just to tie.
As a team, other then the first 7 minutes of the 2nd half, they played much better.
Unsure why, after playing zone and keeping Wilson in check, they switched to Man a few times. They just don't have the CB's right now to stick.
Dantzler seems "skittish" on getting burned deep and showed that on the 4th down and 10 on the last drive.
He had good coverage and then fell for Metcalfs "go Deep" move, lost containment and .. 1st down :(
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Zimmer on Instilling 'Go For The Win' Mentality, Balance of Playing Cautiously vs. Dangerously, Development of Young Corners
Zimmer says if given the same decision as last night he is always going to go for it and try to win the game.
He is talking about there being a delicate balance between playing conservatively and aggressively which is based on situational football and that the young players are still learning about that.
He says some good things about Eric WIlson who I think had a great game. He had a sack and a interception. I think he is better than Barr although I am sure Mike would not agree.
Zimmer says if given the same decision as last night he is always going to go for it and try to win the game.
He is talking about there being a delicate balance between playing conservatively and aggressively which is based on situational football and that the young players are still learning about that.
He says some good things about Eric WIlson who I think had a great game. He had a sack and a interception. I think he is better than Barr although I am sure Mike would not agree.
BigJim®
Footballguy
.. at home vs. an 0-5 team that just fired their head coach and GM and down 17-0 nearing halftime.. at this rate 4-12 might be asking to much with the way they are playing. 
Donnybrook
Footballguy
The good news in my mind is that every lose puts the team closer to the end of the Cousins and Speilman Era. Always felt that Speilman always was patching holes rather building a team with a solid foundation. I would like to see a team built around talented non-skilled players for a change.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well sounds like everyone is agreeing with Stefon Diggs not so cryptic comments about needing a change after Cousins was signed to a new contract.
The Kirk Cousins thing has made everyone unhappy. It makes ZImmer unhappy because he can't afford to over spend on his defense. They have turned Cousins into a over paid game manager and the way he plays I can understand why.
I love Zimmer but he has a glaring flaw in that he is not an offensive minded coach. He delegates too much responsibility there and then he messes up the program insisting that the offense run the ball more when just about everything else is pulling in the other direction.
ZImmers philosophy is not in synch with paying a QB top $$ even if Cousins were good I think this would still hold him back from earning that money.
Then you have a GM who doesn't invest in the players needed for the style of play his coaches will need.
The Vikings have been poorly prepared from the start of the season and that does not seem to be improving either. Thats on the coaches.
I think they miss Jerry Grey and probably Terrence Newman too. Thats supposed to be ZImmers pet project, but the corners look out matched. I don't like the chemistry of Patterson and Adam ZImmer as co defensive coordinators. They are not doing a good job. I would prefer Patterson be able to focus on the defensive linemen but from my perspective he is having to step up for a lot of things that Adam and his dad are missing.
I love all the trades RIck Spielman is able to pull off during the draft. I think he has really good game there. I like many of you disagree with him about priorities he puts on certain players and positions.
Anyone get a good look at Cleveland? I was trying to but I kept shaking my head in disbelief and needing more shots.
The Kirk Cousins thing has made everyone unhappy. It makes ZImmer unhappy because he can't afford to over spend on his defense. They have turned Cousins into a over paid game manager and the way he plays I can understand why.
I love Zimmer but he has a glaring flaw in that he is not an offensive minded coach. He delegates too much responsibility there and then he messes up the program insisting that the offense run the ball more when just about everything else is pulling in the other direction.
ZImmers philosophy is not in synch with paying a QB top $$ even if Cousins were good I think this would still hold him back from earning that money.
Then you have a GM who doesn't invest in the players needed for the style of play his coaches will need.
The Vikings have been poorly prepared from the start of the season and that does not seem to be improving either. Thats on the coaches.
I think they miss Jerry Grey and probably Terrence Newman too. Thats supposed to be ZImmers pet project, but the corners look out matched. I don't like the chemistry of Patterson and Adam ZImmer as co defensive coordinators. They are not doing a good job. I would prefer Patterson be able to focus on the defensive linemen but from my perspective he is having to step up for a lot of things that Adam and his dad are missing.
I love all the trades RIck Spielman is able to pull off during the draft. I think he has really good game there. I like many of you disagree with him about priorities he puts on certain players and positions.
Anyone get a good look at Cleveland? I was trying to but I kept shaking my head in disbelief and needing more shots.
sports_fan
Footballguy
A new low. Jefferson though, wow.
This team is so bad that a guy who famously doesn't score TDs had 2 against them!
I mean, I get that the D is undermanned and inexperienced right now, but what I don't get is the offense just coming out and immediately dying on the field. Not enough has changed on that side of the ball to justify the struggles by Cousins. He's had WAY TOO MANY horrific, inexplicable "forgot my pen, #### the bed" stretches of play.
I mean, I get that the D is undermanned and inexperienced right now, but what I don't get is the offense just coming out and immediately dying on the field. Not enough has changed on that side of the ball to justify the struggles by Cousins. He's had WAY TOO MANY horrific, inexplicable "forgot my pen, #### the bed" stretches of play.
BigJim®
Footballguy
sports_fan said:
Jefferson has looked really good, unfortunately irrelevantly. There's a decent case for firing anyone, from Spielman on down, but I'm not a fan of reflexive symbolic firings. There's no reason to do anything now and, in fact, it may cause the wrong firing in a biased environment. Nepotism has left Zim in a tricky spot. My biggest fear is someone like Patterson (a very proven coach IMO) gets scapegoated, elevating Zim's son to full fledged DC, when maybe his lack of experience was part of the problem. That's not solving anything. JMHO- Make everyone lay in the bed they've made for 2020 and be judged on results.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I'm sure they'll turn it around after the bye and finish 10-6 
, but if they don't it will be interesting to see if they do shake things up with trades. I know NOTHING about the cap and all that stuff but I would think they would have to look into moving some guys - I'm not a fan of a total blow up of the roster.
I wonder if Ngakoue would be a candidate to be moved...I know they gave up a 2nd for him but wonder if he is saying "No way I'm staying here!" and the Vikings try to recoup something out of him. I've been pleasantly surprised with how well Wonnum has looked in the few opportunities he has had.
I have always been a Cousins fan but have no idea what he is doing this year...absolute junk right now. I would think they have to cut Mannion and put one of the young guys as back-up and if/when Cousins plays like garbage, see what they have.
Seven of their draft picks are now playing meaningful minutes...not good for a team that was expected to be decent...
, but if they don't it will be interesting to see if they do shake things up with trades. I know NOTHING about the cap and all that stuff but I would think they would have to look into moving some guys - I'm not a fan of a total blow up of the roster.I wonder if Ngakoue would be a candidate to be moved...I know they gave up a 2nd for him but wonder if he is saying "No way I'm staying here!" and the Vikings try to recoup something out of him. I've been pleasantly surprised with how well Wonnum has looked in the few opportunities he has had.
I have always been a Cousins fan but have no idea what he is doing this year...absolute junk right now. I would think they have to cut Mannion and put one of the young guys as back-up and if/when Cousins plays like garbage, see what they have.
Seven of their draft picks are now playing meaningful minutes...not good for a team that was expected to be decent...
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BigJim®
Footballguy
JMHO, they'll ruin anyone they put behind that pass protection. While the first INT by cousins was inexcusable, the last two came with defenders pushing OL back into him. Whether it is a newbie as you mention late this year or a new prized rookie next year, it's got to be impossible for any QB to operate assuming a 2 second clock. Training any QB to go through route progressions is a pipe dream... which I think is what is causing Cousins to project a single target.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
As things stand right now with a projected salary cap of $175 the Vikings are about $10 million over that. Now the salary cap may end up being lower than this, and so more moves need to be made.I'm sure they'll turn it around after the bye and finish 10-6
The biggest expense is Cousins, and it costs the Vikings money if they cut him. So the only way they could get out of that expense is by trading him. Which I am happy to say they can do.
Anthony Barr is over paid and they never should have brought him back in my opinion. It seems unlikely the Vikings would trade him and I am not sure how interested other teams would actually be in trading for Barr. I am pretty certain the Vikings value him more than any other team in the league. Maybe if there were a coaching change this is something that would be on the table.
The Vikings likely could trade Harrison Smith for something decent but I think they should keep him.
Riley Reiff took a pay cut to stay with the team near the start of the season. I am not sure what his contract is like right now but he has played well and I hope they can keep him. That said playing Cleveland at RG suggests to me that the Vikings might play him at right tackle and move O'Neil to the left side if they do move on from Reiff. Dozier has played RG for the Vikings before. So although ZImmer said they didn;t want to move him, it seems also like a move to get him used to the right side.
Rudolph they likely can't get much for. He has been blocking better since his new deal. Another deal I don't think they should have made.
There isn't a ;lot of dead weight on the roster. There are only 7 players with a cap hit of 10 million or more. A lot of the dead cap the Vikings had to deal with this season was because of the Diggs trade. That clears the books after the season.
I agree Wonnum has done ok which is nice to see.
The Vikings can just designate Ngakoue as a RFA I believe and if he signs a big enough contract, then they get a 3rd round compensatory pick for him, similar to what happened with Shheldon Richardson a couple years ago. I think this is part of why they were willing to give up the 2nd rounder for him. I suppose they could trade him but he is a good pass rusher which they do need. Still no news on Hunters decision yet, but if the doctor is telling him not to play then he shouldn't play.
Zimmer said in PC today that Cousins is trusting his pre snap reads too much and just throwing it without seeing the coverage.
I think the scheme can be okay but Cousins does things that gives the defense tells. Not sure what they are but he doesn't do the little things to keep defenses guessing, like continuing his throwing motion after a hand off and looking off the defense.
Yup. I would like to see more of James Lynch. Zimmer did not seem excited about him when asked about him specifically.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think your expectations of offensive line play are too high.
Look at the Dallas Cowboys for example. A few years back they had an elite offensive line for awhile. They had a stud lineman fall in their lap on top of already having multiple 1st round picks who panned out and played well for them. It lasted for about 4 years and now their offensive line is not really a dominant force any more.
Its just like any other position group. You cant maintain a top level of play at a group without consistently investing high draft picks into it, and while you are doing that other positions are being over looked.
Right now the Vikings have Reiff who is playing pretty well. They have been helping him out more with a TE and letting O'Neil be on his own more. O'Neil is good enough is why. The Vikings have at least average if not above average starting tackles right now and they have good back up tackles who can start as well.
I think Bradbury has been playing better. Good enough to start anyways.
The guards are not good. They need to be upgraded, but I don't think this offensive line is as bad relative to the rest of the league as you think and I don't think it is so bad that QBs cannot function.
Now if the Vikings could develop a late round pick or UDFA lineman into a decent starter at some point they might be alright. Jury certainly out on Cleveland with only one game played. I do want to remind you that Cleveland was a 2nd round pick. A quality prospect that Spielman did invest in. They don't always work out. It usually takes a lineman a couple seasons before they start playing the best football they are capable of.
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