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Public Stadium Financing (1 Viewer)

MarvinTScamper

MarvinTScamper

Footballguy
With Raiders moving to Vegas, ESPN analyst Jamele Hill says (paraphrased) - "I'm disappointed with this country, where rich people can demand and get things like this for free." -- FOR FREE?!?!?!  Look, I'm not a big supporter of public financing, but to suggest that the NFL owner isn't putting something at risk here is stupid.  I realize the NFL has had wild success, and the last couple decades it's shown to create massive wealth.   This is a billion dollar franchise at risk.

However, the owner is also employing many people, bringing HUGE revenues to Vegas, etc.   I wouldn't park a car in Oakland much less want to run a business there.  To say it's an insult to Oakland is like saying Oakland deserves the team because they existed.

 
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Maybe you shouldn't paraphrase, because nothing you wrote disputes what you alleged she had said.

 
RUSF18 said:
Maybe you shouldn't paraphrase, because nothing you wrote disputes what you alleged she had said.
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uh, yeah, it does.   The owner is getting anything for free.  The owner is risking the entire franchise, and bringing a great deal to the table.  It's not free, it's an agreement where both sides offer something.

 
Of course the owner is getting something for free.   If I move to San Francisco because I'm offered a free dinner at a five star restaurant, I am both taking a risk (I don't have a job there!) and am getting something for free. 

 
I actually feel worse for Vegas taxpayers than Oakland fans.  $950M in public money for stadiums, while at the same time there is a huge Vegas school budget deficit and big cuts coming?  Just insane.  

 
What i really don't understand is public funding for Spring training.  These MLB franchises routinely BF small communities that think they need some sort of professional sports association to validate, justify, provide an identity or something.  In the day and age where people want to shorten the NFL preseason, I don't understand why communities want to invest in preseason, practice baseball.  

 
tommyGunZ said:
I actually feel worse for Vegas taxpayers than Oakland fans.  $950M in public money for stadiums, while at the same time there is a huge Vegas school budget deficit and big cuts coming?  Just insane.  
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Duh, sports deserve our taxes, schools don't. 

 
Quez said:
What i really don't understand is public funding for Spring training.  These MLB franchises routinely BF small communities that think they need some sort of professional sports association to validate, justify, provide an identity or something.  In the day and age where people want to shorten the NFL preseason, I don't understand why communities want to invest in preseason, practice baseball.  
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Spring training is a huge tourism driver for Florida cities. Spend 5 minutes walking around Clearwater this week. It's nothing like NFL preseason at all, not even the same context. 

That said, those cities shouldn't be bullied into stadiums either. 

 
MarvinTScamper said:
uh, yeah, it does.   The owner is getting anything for free.  The owner is risking the entire franchise, and bringing a great deal to the table.  It's not free, it's an agreement where both sides offer something.
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The owner is quite literally getting $750MM for free (or maybe $950MM for free) and is in no way "risking the entire franchise". 

 
SHE'S ALWAYS SO SO SO ANGRY!!1!1  :rant:

 a tedious bore - and a giant tool, to boot.   only on ESPN, y'all  :thumbup:

 
Quez said:
What i really don't understand is public funding for Spring training.  These MLB franchises routinely BF small communities that think they need some sort of professional sports association to validate, justify, provide an identity or something.  In the day and age where people want to shorten the NFL preseason, I don't understand why communities want to invest in preseason, practice baseball.  
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Public funding of minor league and spring training stadiums are just shorter cons than the big league deals.  The dollar amounts are smaller but so is the tax base.

Some of the spring training complexes are used year round but the revenues are highly concentrated in a few weeks of the year.

 
Capella said:
Spring training is a huge tourism driver for Florida cities. Spend 5 minutes walking around Clearwater this week. It's nothing like NFL preseason at all, not even the same context. 

That said, those cities shouldn't be bullied into stadiums either. 
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I'm amazed the amount of people that show up for meaningless baseball.  Maybe we should just let the Rays go and turn Tampa Bay area into a Spring Training Mecca.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Most studies I've seen don't really agree with your "huge revenues" point.
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Yeah but those studies are probably from cities that already have significant tourism and people spending money on stuff like food, alcohol, hotel rooms. etc.  A place like Vegas, OTOH, is really starved for attractions.  Have you ever heard of anyone traveling to Vegas for fun and helping the local economy through frivolous spending?  Of course not.  This football team will change everything.

 
Quez said:
I'm amazed the amount of people that show up for meaningless baseball.  Maybe we should just let the Rays go and turn Tampa Bay area into a Spring Training Mecca.
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We went to Lenny's in Clearwater on Sunday and sat through a 45-minute wait. 90% of the restaurant had phillies garb on. They're all on spring break and traveling down. One family next to us said they do it annually. Seems pretty cool actually. 

Dunedin with the Jays seems the same. 

 
Capella said:
We went to Lenny's in Clearwater on Sunday and sat through a 45-minute wait. 90% of the restaurant had phillies garb on. They're all on spring break and traveling down. One family next to us said they do it annually. Seems pretty cool actually. 

Dunedin with the Jays seems the same. 
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Minnesotans pack their building in Fort Myers, too.

 
tommyGunZ said:
I actually feel worse for Vegas taxpayers than Oakland fans.  $950M in public money for stadiums, while at the same time there is a huge Vegas school budget deficit and big cuts coming?  Just insane.  
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Alameda County still has $83M left on the Coliseum "upgrade" that was done to bring the Raiders back to Oakland.  They are an organization that wipes it's ### with it's fans and the general public.  Glad to see them go, but wish we could stick them with the $83M bill.  The Rams left St Louis on the hook for over $100M in debt on the dome.  All those PSLs the Raiders pushed when they moved back here quickly became essentially worthless and are now completely worthless.  Now they go to Vegas so they can sell more PSLs and when that money dries up and the honeymoon is over they will be on to the next city to #### them over.  Perfect team name.

 
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I don't think anyone questions that spring training baseball is booming.  Parks are full and ticket prices are way up from 5-10 years ago.  But we're talking about 15-20 home dates over five weeks in February in March. 

The Cubs opened a new publicly funded spring training stadium in Mesa, AZ this year replacing a 20 year old ballpark.  It'll cost taxpayers $100M part of which will be offset by the city selling off other city-owned land.  Details of the deal are here.  The economic value to the city is debatable but the Cubs are making out like bandits.

 
I think public financing of stadiums can make sense in some isolated cases where it is part of a neighborhood revitalization project and it can create a lot of additional foot traffic and otherwise spur economic development in the area -- Camden Yards is a good example of that.

But I don't see a stadium just off the already well-developed Las Vegas strip for a football team that plays 8 home games a year doing that.

 
$53 million: Approximate amount each NFL owner will make from Rams, Chargers & Raiders relocation fees.

 
Don Quixote said:
I think public financing of stadiums can make sense in some isolated cases where it is part of a neighborhood revitalization project and it can create a lot of additional foot traffic and otherwise spur economic development in the area -- Camden Yards is a good example of that.

But I don't see a stadium just off the already well-developed Las Vegas strip for a football team that plays 8 home games a year doing that.
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Would make more sense for the team to pay for it while still revitalizing the neighborhood.  Look at the SF GIants.  Yes SF had to pay for infrastructure around the park, but every city is on the hook for that on top of the cost of the ballpark.

 
tommyGunZ said:
I actually feel worse for Vegas taxpayers than Oakland fans.  $950M in public money for stadiums, while at the same time there is a huge Vegas school budget deficit and big cuts coming?  Just insane.  
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If you just took the $950 million, and gave it to the people, wouldn't that be more then the jobs? (You know what I mean!)

 
Dickies said:
Would make more sense for the team to pay for it while still revitalizing the neighborhood.  Look at the SF GIants.  Yes SF had to pay for infrastructure around the park, but every city is on the hook for that on top of the cost of the ballpark.
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Sure, but not all teams will do that if they are getting better offers from other cities. Going back to my Camden Yards example, Baltimore had lost the Colts not long before that because they refused to pay for public financing of a stadium for them, and there was a real fear that the Orioles would leave too. I think Baltimore/Maryland helping to pay for Camden Yards made sense in that scenario.

 
Don Quixote said:
Sure, but not all teams will do that if they are getting better offers from other cities. Going back to my Camden Yards example, Baltimore had lost the Colts not long before that because they refused to pay for public financing of a stadium for them, and there was a real fear that the Orioles would leave too. I think Baltimore/Maryland helping to pay for Camden Yards made sense in that scenario.
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If no cities offer any teams anything then the problem is solved.

 
Dickies said:
Alameda County still has $83M left on the Coliseum "upgrade" that was done to bring the Raiders back to Oakland.  They are an organization that wipes it's ### with it's fans and the general public.  Glad to see them go, but wish we could stick them with the $83M bill.  The Rams left St Louis on the hook for over $100M in debt on the dome.  All those PSLs the Raiders pushed when they moved back here quickly became essentially worthless and are now completely worthless.  Now they go to Vegas so they can sell more PSLs and when that money dries up and the honeymoon is over they will be on to the next city to #### them over.  Perfect team name.
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I sympathize as a one time Houston Oiler fan. The city of Houston still has like $32M on its books from renovations done to the Astrodome, from nearly 30 years ago! Bud Adams thumbed his nose and still up and moved the team a few years after the renovations were done.

 
Dickies said:
If no cities offer any teams anything then the problem is solved.
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It seems difficult to assume that all cities will band together like that.  But that would not stop teams moving anyway, since it would then just be about maximizing gate and TV revenue. What would have stopped the O's from moving to the DC area, which has three times the population size in its metro area and had no team back then?

 
Buckna said:
I sympathize as a one time Houston Oiler fan. The city of Houston still has like $32M on its books from renovations done to the Astrodome, from nearly 30 years ago! Bud Adams thumbed his nose and still up and moved the team a few years after the renovations were done.
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Houston still ponied up public financing for new homes for the Texans, Astros and Rockets.

 
Dickies said:
If no cities offer any teams anything then the problem is solved.
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Even better is when the state offers things, and then a bunch of people who get literally no benefit foot the bill.

The guillotine of whether or not the Bills would move hung over the city for about a decade until Ralph Wilson died.  At that point, it was all up in the air, though Ralph's wishes were clear that he wished to keep the team here.  You should've seen the state officials falling all over themselves to ensure that the team stayed here.  Governor Cuomo, Chuck Schumer, they did not want to see NY state's only NFL team leave the state on their watch.  Can you imagine the PR disaster?

The Bills have something like 6-7 years left now on their lease of New Era Field from the county.  After that, all bets are off.  The ownership group has very strong ties here and I wouldn't expect them to move.  The NFL owners are heavily nudging the ownership group to finance a new stadium.  There are rumblings that the state government has promised funds would be available from the state coffers.  Buffalo is pretty poor; we collectively receive significant tax subsidization from NYC/downstate taxpayers.  Well, even better, in a few years Otis' state taxes will help finance a brand spanking new downtown stadium, the team will jack up prices and institute PSLs, a lot of current ticketholders will be priced out, and your average Bills game will become another sad overly-corporate sanitized football experience.  At least that's what I'm envisioning.  But hey, politicians will love to point to that shiny new toy on the waterfront that gets used 20 times a year, I'm sure.

 
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Don Quixote said:
It seems difficult to assume that all cities will band together like that.  But that would not stop teams moving anyway, since it would then just be about maximizing gate and TV revenue. What would have stopped the O's from moving to the DC area, which has three times the population size in its metro area and had no team back then?
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We'll hopefully see more votes against public funding like what happened in San Diego.  This still doesn't prevent the back room deals that are made with minimal public involvement; case in point, the new Braves stadium in Cobb County.

 
Quez said:
I'm amazed the amount of people that show up for meaningless baseball.  Maybe we should just let the Rays go and turn Tampa Bay area into a Spring Training Mecca.
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:hophead:

Actually spring ball and minor league games are more fun than the other 162. Imo.

Dickies said:
If no cities offer any teams anything then the problem is solved.
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Similar logic can apply to dating, jobs, etc.  

 
Don Quixote said:
It seems difficult to assume that all cities will band together like that.  But that would not stop teams moving anyway, since it would then just be about maximizing gate and TV revenue. What would have stopped the O's from moving to the DC area, which has three times the population size in its metro area and had no team back then?
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O's have a bigger fanbase in Baltimore.  Oakland is a big city and when you factor in the surrounding areas is a much bigger market than many NFL teams, but can't fill the seats.  Population doesn't mean everything.  The Raiders are a team that has already moved out of Oakland and has been threatening to leave for years while putting a mediocre team on the field on Sundays.  The fact anyone goes to their games at all tells me their fanbase is really good here, but their actions actively piss off everyone else that is not a rabid fan and actively deter casuals from buying tickets.

 
Eephus said:
We'll hopefully see more votes against public funding like what happened in San Diego.  This still doesn't prevent the back room deals that are made with minimal public involvement; case in point, the new Braves stadium in Cobb County.
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Yeah, and the same thing happened with the Giants many years ago.  Luckily, MLB stepped in there to stop their move to Tampa.

 
Dickies said:
O's have a bigger fanbase in Baltimore.  Oakland is a big city and when you factor in the surrounding areas is a much bigger market than many NFL teams, but can't fill the seats.  Population doesn't mean everything.  The Raiders are a team that has already moved out of Oakland and has been threatening to leave for years while putting a mediocre team on the field on Sundays.  The fact anyone goes to their games at all tells me their fanbase is really good here, but their actions actively piss off everyone else that is not a rabid fan and actively deter casuals from buying tickets.
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If they had moved to DC, they would have a bigger fan base in DC.  According to the Forbes listing of value of MLB teams, the Nationals are well above the Orioles now.

I agree that population does not mean everything. As I said, it will just be about where the owners can maximize gate and TV revenue.  If there was no public funding available anywhere, maybe that would be Oakland for the Raiders; maybe it would be elsewhere. 

 
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Don Quixote said:
Yeah, and the same thing happened with the Giants many years ago.  Luckily, MLB stepped in there to stop their move to Tampa.
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This is the part that aggravates me the most.  The Giants are way better off having stayed put and paid for their own stadium than they would be if Tampa bought them a stadium.  

 
Who cares what Jamele Hill thinks. She's just another blowhard at ESPN that knows NOTHING about sports (see lebaturd, stugotz). That station has really scraped the bottom of the barrel to fill airtime.

 
If I understand it correctly, the funding for the stadium will be coming from a 'hotel tax' on visitors to the city, not the residents.

A room tax increase dedicated to funding the state’s $750 million contribution toward building a 65,000-seat stadium to house a National Football League began collection March 1.
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