Have you seen an increase in IDP Leagues? (1 Viewer)

The league I play in is strongly considering moving to an IDP format. However, there are some owners that simply don't like the idea. Some think its unpopular while others think its too much work. Could some of the IDP vets from Football Guys list the some of the Pro and Cons? I tend to think IDPs are some going to become the standard format for advanced players. Everyone in my league has been playing fantasy football for over 10yrs. IMO, we need to continue challenging ourselves and IDP is a get way to do so.

Pros:  

More players to root for.

More consistent performances than "team defense."

Less info overload means more opportnity for savvy owners to gain edge by skill, the way things used to be.

Wide range of possible scoring systems makes for interesting dynamics in different leagues, and again creates opportunities to benefit from superior knowledge and skill.

Less chance that, when sweating a fantasy outcome during MNF, you get stuck only cheering when one of the two teams has the ball.

More fun!

Cons:

Defensive scoring is not standardized league-wide, making weekly value not only matchup but location dependent.

Too many leagues using small #s of idp with weak scoring relative to offensive players, so it feels like you are in a league with 6 kickers.

Overall for me, the pros vastly outweigh the cons.

Arodin said:

Pros:  

More players to root for.

More consistent performances than "team defense."

Less info overload means more opportnity for savvy owners to gain edge by skill, the way things used to be.

Wide range of possible scoring systems makes for interesting dynamics in different leagues, and again creates opportunities to benefit from superior knowledge and skill.

Less chance that, when sweating a fantasy outcome during MNF, you get stuck only cheering when one of the two teams has the ball.

More fun!

Cons:

Defensive scoring is not standardized league-wide, making weekly value not only matchup but location dependent.

Too many leagues using small #s of idp with weak scoring relative to offensive players, so it feels like you are in a league with 6 kickers.

Overall for me, the pros vastly outweigh the cons.

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Pretty much sums it up for me.....I only play in IDP leagues and have no interest in team D.

Nice post Arodin

for me:

Pros

forces you to learn a lot More players

gives you something to watch/root for in almost every game 

con for me- frustrating when defensive schemes change and make your once valuable player borderline worthless

My advice (IDP vet since 2006) - use at Least the same number of defensive players as offensive and break out DT/DE and CB/S

JoeSteeler said:

My advice (IDP vet since 2006) - use at Least the same number of defensive players as offensive and breakout DT/DE and CB/S

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Excellent advice.  Also try to get the scoring so that the top IDPs at their positions are on par with at least the WR2/RB2 level of offensive players, if not the 1's.

IDP positions tend to run deeper, with less spread top to bottom, compared to offensive positions, so if they don't score enough to differentiate the best from the weakest, you get an effect where the waiver wire guys are almost as good as the low-end starters.  (Similar to how the change from 6pt/passTD to 4pt/passTD reduces the spread between the elite and average QBs.)  A strong IDP scoring system will give big enough rewards for defensive plays that the Rodgers/Luck equivalents stand out vs. the Flacco/Dalton equivalents.

As some have stated, if you are going IDP you need to make it meaningful or it is just another kicker type situation.  You need to make scoring equivalent so that elite players at every position score equivalently so you have more strategy involved and can build a solid team in lot's of different ways.  As someone mentioned previously having equal number of IDP starting positions as Offensive starting positions is a good bench mark.  Starting one or two IDP players is useless. 

For long time fantasy players, IDP is a throw back to the days when info wasn't readily available and you had to do your own research to find advantages.  Now there is so much good information on offensive players that it has increased the luck so much that everyone playing has the same info and you win by getting lucky that your stud players don't get hurt while their's do.  Having IDP helps increase the skill because you have to research and scout and adjust to differing schemes to be able to compete.  In my IDP leagues, most teams are fairly equal on the offensive side and the people that consistently win are the ones that understand and know the defensive side.   

Note, that IDP scoring will be wildly inconsistent depending on your scoring system and it is very difficult to normalize the scoring to make every position similar in value.  The key is to have different scoring per position to make sure that the strengths of each position are weighted so elite players at DL equal elite players at LB equal elite players at DB.  We were able to play around with scoring on MFL and try out different values until we found something that was fairly representative.  We found a big play league (sacks vs tackles is 8 pts to 1pt) helped do that. Also, award points for almost everything, QB hits, hurries, pass defensed, blocked kicks, return yards, sack yards.  The more categories helps the consistency in scoring to make them level to offensive player consistency.

The only Con I have found is that IDP scoring is very inconsistent.  This includes statisticians at each location in how they award tackles vs assists and even sacks.  There are a lot more scoring changes that have significant affects on the fantasy scoring each week that it can change outcomes of the fantasy game on Thursday's when the official scoring comes out.  We started with Monday/Tuesday being official so that didn't happen but eventually caved and use the update on Thursday to adjust to the official scores.  I didn't like it at first but now I don't mind it and it adds a little excitement in close games come Thursday morning when those changes come out.

Bottom line the biggest pro is that it gives you more of the game to watch and root for.  You don't turn to another game when your offensive guy isn't on the field.  I think it also helps you understand and appreciate the total football game a lot more.  Once you adopt IDP's you won't go back.

Gally said:

As some have stated, if you are going IDP you need to make it meaningful or it is just another kicker type situation.  You need to make scoring equivalent so that elite players at every position score equivalently so you have more strategy involved and can build a solid team in lot's of different ways.  As someone mentioned previously having equal number of IDP starting positions as Offensive starting positions is a good bench mark.  Starting one or two IDP players is useless.

For long time fantasy players, IDP is a throw back to the days when info wasn't readily available and you had to do your own research to find advantages.  Now there is so much good information on offensive players that it has increased the luck so much that everyone playing has the same info and you win by getting lucky that your stud players don't get hurt while their's do.  Having IDP helps increase the skill because you have to research and scout and adjust to differing schemes to be able to compete.  In my IDP leagues, most teams are fairly equal on the offensive side and the people that consistently win are the ones that understand and know the defensive side. 

Note, that IDP scoring will be wildly inconsistent depending on your scoring system and it is very difficult to normalize the scoring to make every position similar in value.  The key is to have different scoring per position to make sure that the strengths of each position are weighted so elite players at DL equal elite players at LB equal elite players at DB.  We were able to play around with scoring on MFL and try out different values until we found something that was fairly representative.  We found a big play league (sacks vs tackles is 8 pts to 1pt) helped do that. Also, award points for almost everything, QB hits, hurries, pass defensed, blocked kicks, return yards, sack yards.  The more categories helps the consistency in scoring to make them level to offensive player consistency.

The only Con I have found is that IDP scoring is very inconsistent.  This includes statisticians at each location in how they award tackles vs assists and even sacks.  There are a lot more scoring changes that have significant affects on the fantasy scoring each week that it can change outcomes of the fantasy game on Thursday's when the official scoring comes out.  We started with Monday/Tuesday being official so that didn't happen but eventually caved and use the update on Thursday to adjust to the official scores.  I didn't like it at first but now I don't mind it and it adds a little excitement in close games come Thursday morning when those changes come out.

Bottom line the biggest pro is that it gives you more of the game to watch and root for.  You don't turn to another game when your offensive guy isn't on the field.  I think it also helps you understand and appreciate the total football game a lot more.  Once you adopt IDP's you won't go back.

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Completely agree with this. There is no way I could play in a league now with team defense.

The first league I ever played in was an IDP keeper - I once tried a normal redraft league with team defense and it was just so boring. I don't know how people do it.

It's tough to shift an existing league from TeamD to IDP unless you know you've got a group of die-hards. As you mention, it's for advanced players, but being "advanced" is usually more than most league members tend to be even if they've been doing it for a long time. If you have a good league going you are probably better off keeping that league intact and simply using the current members looking for more as a core for a startup league. It doesn't make a lot of sense to risk ruining a good league by alienating owners with a switch not all support. If it's not done right it'll suck, and dragging some members into it or having to compromise by adding a small (insignificant) number of IDPs to the starting lineup is more likely to fail.

Make sure the Idp points are close to the offensive points. I find then that idp players just as valuable as offensive. Increasing tackles/sacks/int can make it fair. 

Why owners don't want to change is they have no clue anything about IDP players. Since IDP scoring is different in most leagues rankings are too. So owners that do the homework win out. Having IDP players gives owners more ways to build their teams. 

Arodin said:

Pros:  

More players to root for.

More consistent performances than "team defense."

Less info overload means more opportnity for savvy owners to gain edge by skill, the way things used to be.

Wide range of possible scoring systems makes for interesting dynamics in different leagues, and again creates opportunities to benefit from superior knowledge and skill.

Less chance that, when sweating a fantasy outcome during MNF, you get stuck only cheering when one of the two teams has the ball.

More fun!

Cons:

Defensive scoring is not standardized league-wide, making weekly value not only matchup but location dependent.

Too many leagues using small #s of idp with weak scoring relative to offensive players, so it feels like you are in a league with 6 kickers.

Overall for me, the pros vastly outweigh the cons.

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To me the biggest positive with IDP is that there are more players and more ways to win, and it makes the rookie draft a lot more exciting. Whereas late round picks in non-IDP can get a little flat after the first couple rounds you're grabbing the top DE in the 3rd and you can land impact IDP players in the 5th or 6th round which even makes 7-8 round drafts fun.

The biggest negative is for me that individual defensive statistics do a less than optimal job in properly evaluating how good a player is. For DEs, sure, the best players will rise to the top. But at safety, corner and linebacker there are a lot of stat compilers who are poor NFL players but they can be very strong IDP options - at least for a few seasons until they lose their job. I don't hate it...because it makes it interesting and fun, and you feel rewarded for your skills, but it would be better if there were more advanced stats that properly evaluated the performance of a player outside of stats like tackles that are primarily just a result of snaps and role/scheme. I'm a big fan of leagues that reward TFLs and QB hits and stuff like that. But I wish we also scored by mistakes made, like passes allowed and missed tackles, just like we do on offensive with fumbles and interceptions thrown.

And I don't like the way we handle rush OLBs. They become very undervalued in most leagues when compared to their real life value.

But even with all its flaws I love IDP and I hardly join any non-IDP leagues any longer; they're just so stale when compared to IDP.

Louche said:

To me the biggest positive with IDP is that there are more players and more ways to win, and it makes the rookie draft a lot more exciting. Whereas late round picks in non-IDP can get a little flat after the first couple rounds you're grabbing the top DE in the 3rd and you can land impact IDP players in the 5th or 6th round which even makes 7-8 round drafts fun.

The biggest negative is for me that individual defensive statistics do a less than optimal job in properly evaluating how good a player is. For DEs, sure, the best players will rise to the top. But at safety, corner and linebacker there are a lot of stat compilers who are poor NFL players but they can be very strong IDP options - at least for a few seasons until they lose their job. I don't hate it...because it makes it interesting and fun, and you feel rewarded for your skills, but it would be better if there were more advanced stats that properly evaluated the performance of a player outside of stats like tackles that are primarily just a result of snaps and role/scheme. I'm a big fan of leagues that reward TFLs and QB hits and stuff like that. But I wish we also scored by mistakes made, like passes allowed and missed tackles, just like we do on offensive with fumbles and interceptions thrown.

And I don't like the way we handle rush OLBs. They become very undervalued in most leagues when compared to their real life value.

But even with all its flaws I love IDP and I hardly join any non-IDP leagues any longer; they're just so stale when compared to IDP.

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This is a fairly easy fix by adjusting the point scheme to a "big play" league.  We award 8 pts for a sack and 1 pt for a tackle.  This vaults the rush LB's up the leaderboard and makes them very valuable matching their on field importance. 

Gally said:

This is a fairly easy fix by adjusting the point scheme to a "big play" league.  We award 8 pts for a sack and 1 pt for a tackle.  This vaults the rush LB's up the leaderboard and makes them very valuable matching their on field importance. 

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Yes, I'm not sure I would call it a complete fix without any complications, but yes, adjustments to scoring can certainly raise the value of rush OLBs. However, the reason I brought up this aspect is because I would estimate that 80-90%+ of IDP leagues are not using scoring settings that values rush OLBs, so we still have a community problem with this, in my opinion. I'm in a few leagues with "balanced scoring" with DT premium and very specific scoring for each IDP position, but even these leagues leave out the rush OLBs.

I'm in one league on MFL that manually declassifies rush OLBs as DEs, and I was intrigued by this idea, but while this solves the problem of players being moved back-and-forth between DE and LB it causes other "problems". The DEs, and particularly the 3-4 DEs, become less valuable as rush OLBs that drop back in coverage 20% of the time and are more open to run and chase on running plays quite simply produce more stats than a 3-4 DE bogged down in offensive linemen and gap assignments. So where a player like Calais Campbell was rightfully a stud IDP player there are suddenly a bunch of rush OLBs that deflate his value. And another consequence is that the LB position becomes quite much more shallow which further increases the value of a lot of LB stat compilers (the Paul Worrilows of the world). Typically when starting 3 LBs plus a flex the LB position is very deep as you can always pick up a rush OLB if you're in a bind, but in this league there are pretty much zero startable LB options on waivers and a lot of DE options, raising the value of LBs and devaluing DEs.

My biggest wish would be for MFL to start separating rush OLBs from LBs so you would have an EDGE LB designation, or RSLB/RWLB (rush-SLB/WLB) or something. Only then would it be truly possible to fine-tune scoring systems where rush OLBs are properly valued without it causing issues at other positions. The way things are now there will always be some level of whack-a-mole where any change you make to increase rush OLB scoring will cause issues elsewhere as you have to bunch them in with DEs or LBs. The scoring you mention is very sack heavy, most people talk about a 4:1 ratio being big play and you're using an 8:1 ratio. Wouldn't this marginalize ILBs by going too far? It certainly solves the issue of rush OLBs not being valued, but at what expense?

I have yet to see the perfect scoring system for IDP. I'm in leagues run by Wyremski and FFGhost, who both are IDP authorities, and I would say both their scoring systems are really good and fun to play but at the same time they also have issues - if the goal is to try and value all positions in a way that mimics real life value (and I'm not even talking about CBs which are practically impossible to handle in a good way). There are plenty of formats that are fun, and they are fun in different ways - be it chasing tackles or sacks, rigid position requirements or flexibility, position specific premium scoring...they're all fun, but to me the perfect IDP scoring system would necessitate some changes in which stats we focus on and they would need some changes from MFL in which position tools they provide. So some of it is held back by the tools we have available (advanced metrics/scoring and position designations), and some is being held back by our mentality in the IDP community. Generally people tend to prefer scoring formats that stick close to what they are familiar with, so change can be difficult.

Louche said:

Yes, I'm not sure I would call it a complete fix without any complications, but yes, adjustments to scoring can certainly raise the value of rush OLBs.

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There are  going to be "complications" in all systems depending on what you are trying to accomplish.  MFL lets you change scoring and then recalculate the scores from last year so you can see the overall effect.  It's more trial and error but can adjust to see how  it affects other positions and scoring tiers.  Keep changing until you get your desired stratification of scoring. 

Like you said, it is impossible to get "perfect" but you can adjust for your desired outcome.       

I'm a little late to the topic, but I'll echo a lot of what was said.  IDP is sooo much better to play than standard defenses.  There are plenty of pros, and a few cons, but here is my perspective:

1- IDP allows you to build a winning team in so many more ways.  As long as the scoring is equal between offensive and defensive players.  For example, in our league, the top three to five players in each catagory (RB, WR, TE, LB and DB) all average about 50 pts per game.  Outside of scarcity, this makes a trade of Bobby Wagner (LB SEA) for Antonio Brown doable.  We also have found that the person who builds the most solid overall team ends up champ.  Not the guy who drafts two of the top three RB's.  In fact, we had an owner draft both Ezekiel Elliot and Leveon Bell...and ended up in last place because he refused to improve his IDP's.

2- We used to go all out and split out all the options: Defensive Ends and Defensive Tackles, Cornerbacks and Safeties; but what we have found is that the core fun is keeping it simple.  Instead of using individual defensive linemen, we have a Team Defensive Line.  The individual players are either LB's or DB's.  We found that once the first couple of defensive linemen were off the board, it was a crap-shoot in drafting and week-to-week scoring, so that's how we ended up with the team DL.  We also run a Team Offensive Line as well as a Special Teams, and their scoring is different from the individual players.  The top ones average about 75-80 pts per game.  It adds a good dynamic and makes drafting one of them early very viable.

3- It's harder to find good info on IDP's.  We have two good writers in Jene and John, and their are a few others out there, but for each one of them there are a hundred other writers that focus soley on the offensive players.  This is one thing I asked for more of in the survey Joe sent out earlier.

4- It's critical to know what system each team runs and if they have switched in the off-season.  A 4-3 defense will a higher value on certain players than a 3-4 defense will.  And then there are the teams that run mixed...and special packages.  You really do need to do your homework here to have an edge.

5- The landscape changes faster on defense.  Often, you can see the changing of the guard on offense- like an aging WR getting less and less opportunity.  Defensive changes sometimes happen without any warning and finding out why is hard to track down.

6- The old adage is: Talent + Opportunity + Situation = Value.  On offense, Talent is usually the determining factor.  On defense, situation plays a much larger role.  I think a previous poster mentioned that marginal players can sometimes provide inflated stats simply because of the role he plays.  It happens every year and requires a little digging to find those gems.

7- One more thing to add, I have found that it's important to have one or two more defensive starters than offensive starters.  There are more startable DB's and LB's than WR's and RB's.  We have 5 offensive players (6 if you count the QB) and 7 defensive players as starters.

8- Almost forgot, the waiver wire becomes more fun.  We award a single player on Wednesday of each week through blind bidding, then it becomes FC/FS.  Having IDP's allows more top tier talent on the wire.

Those are just some quick and random thoughts.  Good luck and I hope it works out for your league.

Jedi Knight said:

I'm a little late to the topic, but I'll echo a lot of what was said.  IDP is sooo much better to play than standard defenses.  There are plenty of pros, and a few cons, but here is my perspective:

1- IDP allows you to build a winning team in so many more ways.  As long as the scoring is equal between offensive and defensive players.  For example, in our league, the top three to five players in each catagory (RB, WR, TE, LB and DB) all average about 50 pts per game.  Outside of scarcity, this makes a trade of Bobby Wagner (LB SEA) for Antonio Brown doable.  We also have found that the person who builds the most solid overall team ends up champ.  Not the guy who drafts two of the top three RB's.  In fact, we had an owner draft both Ezekiel Elliot and Leveon Bell...and ended up in last place because he refused to improve his IDP's.

2- We used to go all out and split out all the options: Defensive Ends and Defensive Tackles, Cornerbacks and Safeties; but what we have found is that the core fun is keeping it simple.  Instead of using individual defensive linemen, we have a Team Defensive Line.  The individual players are either LB's or DB's.  We found that once the first couple of defensive linemen were off the board, it was a crap-shoot in drafting and week-to-week scoring, so that's how we ended up with the team DL.  We also run a Team Offensive Line as well as a Special Teams, and their scoring is different from the individual players.  The top ones average about 75-80 pts per game.  It adds a good dynamic and makes drafting one of them early very viable.

3- It's harder to find good info on IDP's.  We have two good writers in Jene and John, and their are a few others out there, but for each one of them there are a hundred other writers that focus soley on the offensive players.  This is one thing I asked for more of in the survey Joe sent out earlier.

4- It's critical to know what system each team runs and if they have switched in the off-season.  A 4-3 defense will a higher value on certain players than a 3-4 defense will.  And then there are the teams that run mixed...and special packages.  You really do need to do your homework here to have an edge.

5- The landscape changes faster on defense.  Often, you can see the changing of the guard on offense- like an aging WR getting less and less opportunity.  Defensive changes sometimes happen without any warning and finding out why is hard to track down.

6- The old adage is: Talent + Opportunity + Situation = Value.  On offense, Talent is usually the determining factor.  On defense, situation plays a much larger role.  I think a previous poster mentioned that marginal players can sometimes provide inflated stats simply because of the role he plays.  It happens every year and requires a little digging to find those gems.

7- One more thing to add, I have found that it's important to have one or two more defensive starters than offensive starters.  There are more startable DB's and LB's than WR's and RB's.  We have 5 offensive players (6 if you count the QB) and 7 defensive players as starters.

8- Almost forgot, the waiver wire becomes more fun.  We award a single player on Wednesday of each week through blind bidding, then it becomes FC/FS.  Having IDP's allows more top tier talent on the wire.

Those are just some quick and random thoughts.  Good luck and I hope it works out for your league.

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This is very insightful. Great breakdown. Do you use team LB's an DB's as well? 

agame2323 said:

This is very insightful. Great breakdown. Do you use team LB's an DB's as well? 

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No.  Only for the defensive line.  MFL will let you use team LB's and Team DB's but not at the same time as individual players.  We didn't want to lose the fun of those individual players.  Defensive linemen, on the other hand, are extremely frustrating consitency-wise.  It made sense to keep the team line instead.

Jedi Knight said:

No.  Only for the defensive line.  MFL will let you use team LB's and Team DB's but not at the same time as individual players.  We didn't want to lose the fun of those individual players.  Defensive linemen, on the other hand, are extremely frustrating consitency-wise.  It made sense to keep the team line instead.

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Okay, so I'm confused. So you're using Team Defensive linemen, only? Reading your reply sounds like MFL will NOT allow you to mix team with individuals players. 

Jedi Knight said:

No.  Only for the defensive line.  MFL will let you use team LB's and Team DB's but not at the same time as individual players.  We didn't want to lose the fun of those individual players.  Defensive linemen, on the other hand, are extremely frustrating consitency-wise.  It made sense to keep the team line instead.

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I just don't understand the point of going to IDP and then also using team defense aspects (even if it is just the DL).  The point of going IDP is to choose your players and you are taking 1/3 of the positions away.  You say it's because of the inconsistency of the position......but doesn't that make research and planning more important?  Plus that "inconsistency" is the same for everyone.  Nobody gets an unfair advantage.  I just don't understand why you would go that route.       

agame2323 said:

Okay, so I'm confused. So you're using Team Defensive linemen, only? Reading your reply sounds like MFL will NOT allow you to mix team with individuals players. 

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Sorry for the confusion.  MFL won't let you run both individual LB's AND a team LB, or individual DB's AND a team DB...However, it will allow you to run a TMDL and individual LB's and DB's.  Does that help?

Gally said:

I just don't understand the point of going to IDP and then also using team defense aspects (even if it is just the DL).  The point of going IDP is to choose your players and you are taking 1/3 of the positions away.  You say it's because of the inconsistency of the position......but doesn't that make research and planning more important?  Plus that "inconsistency" is the same for everyone.  Nobody gets an unfair advantage.  I just don't understand why you would go that route.       

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Like I said in my first post, we used to run Individual DL, but made a switch a few years ago.  Part of the reasoning was the inconsistency, part was looking at making the league a bit easier overall.  For some groups, if you make it too complex, it becomes un-fun.  We enjoyed playing with individual LB's and DB's...but did not enjoy individual DL's.  Different strokes and all that.

Jedi Knight said:

Like I said in my first post, we used to run Individual DL, but made a switch a few years ago.  Part of the reasoning was the inconsistency, part was looking at making the league a bit easier overall.  For some groups, if you make it too complex, it becomes un-fun.  We enjoyed playing with individual LB's and DB's...but did not enjoy individual DL's.  Different strokes and all that.

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For me DL is actually the most fun and interesting defensive position as I enjoy researching these guys in the draft and picking up UDFAs that starts to flash in games. Yes, there is more weekly variation (although there is plenty weekly variation at LB and DB as well), but the better players are going to get you those big weeks x number of times throughout the season so as long as you play 3+ DLs there's not THAT much inconsistency. And it's not rocket science to figure out what are good weekly starts; QBs that get sacked a lot get sacked a lot...and teams that get behind and typically end up throwing the ball the entire 4th quarter tend to give away a couple extra sacks. It certainly can be a rewarding position to focus on, as long as DE and DT scoring is appreciated in the scoring system.

One way to make the position more consistent is to also award pts for QB hits, as those are typically more consistent than sacks. But as you say; different strokes. I'm all for leagues doing whatever they please in order to tune the FF experience to their interest.