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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Awesome
- Start date
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
I'm well aware Tannehill's stats aren't as good as Kaep's this year. Tannehill is also a rookie, not a 2nd year player. He played QB how many games in college? A season and a half? He has a lot to learn. He also plays on a team that had one of the worst offenses in the league the previous year. His #1 WR is Brian Hartline. Come see me in 2-3 years and let's see who the better QB is.'drummer said:
goldenchild
Footballguy
Wasn't Tannehill the unquestionable starter throughout training camp (serious question as I don't follow the Dolphins closely). There is a big difference between someone in Tannehill's position vs. someone thrown into the starting gig mid-season, and a couple months before the post-season, 2nd year or not. This would actually hurt your argument in comparing Tannehill vs. Kaep (i.e. Kaep was able to perform just as well or better despite not having a full off-season camp as the bonifide starting QB).
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
I don't think he was the unquestioned starter throughout training camp. I think they made that decision sometime during the preseason, but not from the get go. Kaep's had 2 whole training camps, an entire offseason, and a full year to take everything in. I would definitely not say his situation is harder than Tannehill's. You didn't even address the personnel difference.
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goldenchild
Footballguy
So now you want to highlight the personnel difference, but you want to overlook it when you try to compare Alex vs. GB with Kaep vs. GB ? C'mon maaaan :michaelirvingvoice:
butcher boy
Footballguy
He came in under a lot more pressure. Coming in and starting for a Superbowl contender a month before the playoffs is no small undertaking.
CalBear
Footballguy
And he's, at best, the fourth-best rookie in his class. How often does the fourth-best QB in a class become a solid starter?
You think the fact that he didn't play much QB in college is a factor in his favor? How is that working out for Cassell and Sanchez? He has one of the best pass-catching RBs in the league, as well as a decent TE. Kaepernick doesn't have any WRs (other than an over-the-hill Moss) who did anything before this year, either.
I'm sure that any of the other rookies would have done better in Miami, and so would Kaepernick have.
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
So Crabtree is garbage now? Or I suppose you think Kaepernick made him into the player he is? Vernon Davis is one of the 3 most talented tight ends in the league. Delanie Walker is probably the 2nd best 2nd tight end on any team behind Aaron Hernandez. Kaepernick has a dominant run game to lean on. Reggie Bush is a decent weapon, but that is ALL Tannehill has. Fassano is a middle of the road TE. Please don't try and compare him to Davis. Are you going to say Hartline is better than Crabtree now?
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
You don't think there's pressure playing QB in the NFL? Players at this level are supposed to thrive on pressure. And how was there pressure on Kaep? If he failed, no biggie, Alex comes back the next game. Even if there were "more pressure" that doesn't equate to a more difficult situation.
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
What are the major changes? Manningham is out. As I said, Kaep can blame himself for that, since he's the one that double pumped a left him out to dry. Kyle Williams? Kendall Hunter? They're backups. These are not game altering personnel changes. It'd be a different story if he didn't have Gore/Davis/Crabtree (the 3 biggest weapons on offense). Green Bay has had injuries too. A Rod had a full strength Greg Jennings in Week 1, not one that is coming off hernia repair surgery. You can't say that either side has any really key players out. You're just making excuses for Kaep.
goldenchild
Footballguy
I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm merely pointing out inconsistencies with your comparisons. I agree that Smith was done dirty, but after listening to weeks and weeks of sports talk on this topic alone ad nauseam, I'm in the camp of "coaching staff and management know more than us arm chair quarterbacks and that's why they pay them the big bucks". Time to move on.You keep holding grudges... meanwhile, I'm going to remain f-ing stoked for Saturday night football where I'll be in those stands hoping for Kaep's SUCCESS, instead of anxiously waiting for the possibility of posting "I told ya so" on Sunday morning.
drummer
Footballguy
He's trolling. I can sniff them out miles away.I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm merely pointing out inconsistencies with your comparisons. I agree that Smith was done dirty, but after listening to weeks and weeks of sports talk on this topic alone ad nauseam, I'm in the camp of "coaching staff and management know more than us arm chair quarterbacks and that's why they pay them the big bucks". Time to move on.You keep holding grudges... meanwhile, I'm going to remain f-ing stoked for Saturday night football where I'll be in those stands hoping for Kaep's SUCCESS, instead of anxiously waiting for the possibility of posting "I told ya so" on Sunday morning.
I own them both in several leagues, but lets not forget that RT was a top 10 QB pick -- and most draft evaluators didn't have an issue with him being taken there. The guy has a ton of upside.I personally prefer CK, but I would be far from shocked to see RT get a #1 WR this year and make a jump similar to what Josh Freeman did in his second year.'Norcalhoya said:not sure if serious...
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Buffaloes
Footballguy
sure, I was talking about the analysis, though.I own them both in several leagues, but lets not forget that RT was a top 10 QB pick -- and most draft evaluators didn't have an issue with him being taken there. The guy has a ton of upside.I personally prefer CK, but I would be far from shocked to see RT get a #1 QB this year and make a jump similar to what Josh Freeman did in his second year.'Norcalhoya said:
A bit harsh on CK, but I'd also content that RT has greater potential as a pure thrower. CK obviously gives you more with the legs. RT throws a great ball.sure, I was talking about the analysis, though.I own them both in several leagues, but lets not forget that RT was a top 10 QB pick -- and most draft evaluators didn't have an issue with him being taken there. The guy has a ton of upside.I personally prefer CK, but I would be far from shocked to see RT get a #1 QB this year and make a jump similar to what Josh Freeman did in his second year.'Norcalhoya said:
drummer
Footballguy
What analysis? If all you put under Kaep is "faster and harder" then you are scouting Bree Olsen, not Kaep.sure, I was talking about the analysis, though.I own them both in several leagues, but lets not forget that RT was a top 10 QB pick -- and most draft evaluators didn't have an issue with him being taken there. The guy has a ton of upside.I personally prefer CK, but I would be far from shocked to see RT get a #1 QB this year and make a jump similar to what Josh Freeman did in his second year.'Norcalhoya said:
CalBear
Footballguy
Before this year, Crabtree's best season was 874/4. Pretty similar to Davone Bess who had 820/5.
Vernon Davis had the following TE finishes in his career before this year: 22, 14, 26, 1, 3, 8. That's not what one of the three most talented TEs in the league looks like. (Tony Gonzalez in the last 6 years: 3, 1 5, 8, 4, 3).
Walker has never had more than 29 receptions or 344 yards. Before this year he had just one season with more than 1 TD. Do you think his line of 21/344/3 really made a huge difference in Kaepernick's performance?
I'm going to say that Hartline on SFO with Kaepernick at QB would produce more than he did in Miami with Tannehill, and that Crabtree in Miami with Tannehill would have produced less than he did.
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
You didn't answer my question. Who's the better wr, crabtree or Hartline? I think crabtree would outproduce hartline if they switched spots. Crabtree was a top 10 pick who had motivation/attitude issues early and nagging injury issues throughout his NFL career. Walker is a young player coming on. You can't use stats to sandbag his ability. V Davis is not a top 3 TE TALENT wise right now? Gronk, graham, then davis. Top 5 at worst if you want to throw hernandez and gonzalez in there.
CalBear
Footballguy
Hartline went for 1083/1. Crabtree went for 1105/9. If they switched spots, Hartline would go up and Crabtree would go down. It'd probably be a wash.
Walker is 28 years old, in his seventh year in the league. He's never done anything as a receiver.
He finished 8th last year with Smith at QB, and 15th this year with the two QBs splitting. That's playing all 16 games. I don't see how you could possibly rank him above Graham, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Gonzalez, Witten, or Gates, all of whom have outperformed him two years in a row, many with fewer than 16 games played. Davis is fast and strong. He's not particularly good at running routes or controlling his body and his hands are among the worst in the league.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
VD on Atl would be scarier than Brady/Grok or Brees/Graham
CalBear
Footballguy
Again, there's really no evidence that he's better than those guys. For chrissakes, he missed a goalpost dunk this year, don't you think that says something about his body coordination? He came into the league with a 42" vertical.
mr roboto
Footballguy
I have another TE to sell you based on athletics. Finley. Want him?
VD is a much better TE at every facet of the game than Finley.
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
You would take Antonio Gates over Vernon Davis in REAL football right now? 32/32 GMs would disagree with you, regardless of age. I still feel like Walker is just now coming into his own. He has the talent to be a decent starting TE. Finally, you still didn't say who the better WR is. I'm pretty sure 32/32 GMs would take Crabtree over Hartline too. Stats are a valuable tool, but Dez Bryant didn't have great stats prior to this year. Is he not very good either? He only had 2 100 yd receiving games before this year. He's terrible right?'CalBear said:
CalBear
Footballguy
I think Gates is more talented than Davis, and I think 32/32 GMs would agree with me. That some might take Davis over Gates is merely a function of Gates' age and injury history. Even with injuries, he's finished ahead of Davis the past two years. He's scored at least seven touchdowns, nine years in a row; Davis has only managed that twice in seven seasons.
Feel that all you like. When he tops 350 receiving yards, call me.
Crabtree is probably better than Hartline, but he's not a great receiver. The Dez Bryant comparison is silly; Bryant went for 928/9 in his second year in the league, which put him at #19 among WRs, despite being injured and missing one game entirely and parts of two more. Crabtree went for 741/6 in his second year in the league, and 874/4 in his third. He hadn't cracked the top 32 in fantasy scoring (despite missing no games) before 2012. If he's so great, and Smith is so great, why did Crabtree suck for three years?
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Strongly disagree to this. You keep citing fantasty rankings and stats, as if they are the ultimate determinant on who is a more talented player. When you have players that play in different teams/offenses, its not as simple as comparing stats. Basically, if Gates were on SF and Vernon was in SD, I bet Vernon would have outperformed him every single year.
CalBear
Footballguy
I cited the fact that Davis doesn't run great routes, doesn't have great body control, and has terrible hands. Gates is a record-setting, future Hall of Fame tight end, and Vernon Davis is just a big fast guy.
RBM
Footballguy
Wow, short memories. People forgetting how awesome Gates was. He changed the way defenses played the Chargers. He was as dominant a tight end as we have seen.
drummer
Footballguy
Gates is what Davis should be and more. That's what the expectation of Davis was. In fairness though, Davis hasn't really played with the best QB's in SF, and never had a real good WR to ease things up. You look at each year in stats, but those don't really reflect the situation, like when Mike Martz was OC and basically just used him as a blocker to which he has honed that skill very well.
Manster
Footballguy
My gut is tellin me that the 9ers come out and run the ball, dink and dunk, and set up for the big plays. I think Harbaugh is gonna put Kaep in a position to succeed. And, they are gonna wanna keep Rodgers off the field obviously. 9ers pull out a close one.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
I would agree with you that Gonzo still has some fuel, and Gonzo is a great pass catcher which makes up for his declining physical tools; but VD would run circles around Gonzo on the track nd weight room. It would be impossible to cover VD with White and JJones on the outside.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
baring a huge injury (ala RGIII) I am going to be all over this kid next yr, especially early in the off-season. People are down on him after the Seattle game and I'm going to buy.
CalBear
Footballguy
It is absolutely true that Davis would beat Gonzo in the track and weight room, now and when he first joined the NFL. Track speed and bench press reps aren't what make a great TE; that's the fallacy that led the Niners to take Davis way too high in the first place. As I've said a number of times, he doesn't run good routes (he's often not where he's supposed to be on the field), he doesn't adjust his body to the ball very well (one of the great qualities of guys like Gonzo and Gates), and his hands are terrible. I don't care if you can run like a gazelle and bench press a pregnant Holstein, if you don't have those qualities you won't be a great TE, which is why Davis isn't one.
5Rings
Lurker
dont Gunz on Kaep, dude.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Oof.
Shawnky
Footballguy
Yeah, Montana and Brady have never thrown a pick in the playoffs.Nice TD run though.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I meant....Oof! In a good way, of course...
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Alex Smith could have made that run....
cstu
Footballguy
People thought it would take a while a for him to learn to read NFL defenses and he had an long throwing motion.
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