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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (9 Viewers)

sho nuff said:
That’s not what I asked you.  You made an accusation that someone was called a racist simply for disagreeing.  This claims has been made before as well and was bogus.  Try backing up your accusation as others have been asked to do.
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Meh...I'm sure next time sommer is around he'll tell us what he meant and then I'll be proven wrong. Until then ...

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Meh...I'm sure next time sommer is around he'll tell us what he meant and then I'll be proven wrong. Until then ...
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Yes...until then you will make baseless accusations and then provide nothing when asked to back that up.

Same as others who have been asked the same question.

 
Koya said:
It stuck out to me, too... which is why I brought it up as BS.  This was never about "millions of black americans killed in the streets" so not sure how it ever changed from "that" to something else.  Which I described above. :shrug:  
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I wasnt saying it was about that. That was the point I was making. It went from being about the black people being killed each year by cops to now people say it is about unequal treatment all the way around of black people. I used your millions quote to show that obviously that is the part you hopped on board with, otherwise you wouldnt have said millions. It was a poorly worded point. Make more sense now? 

 
Koya said:
Appreciate the response.  Because many do indeed avoid responding to direct questions and look to avoid and then obfuscate rather than engage legitimately. Since you do seem willing to engage here, then kindly let me know just what you meant below:

1. What do you mean by people like me? 

2. How do you have any knowledge about how long I have paid close attention to these issues? It's been years before Trump was anything more than a failing narcissistic real estate guy who most every legitimate financial and banking source ceased doing business with because of both his failures and shady dealings.  

Finally - you keep claiming the "cause" is ever changing. It's not. It's a recognition of a serious inequity (a series of ingrained inequities, some at the gravest level) in a county that should strive to do better. Our founding ideals certainly set the bar far, far higher than we are achieving.  You made an outrageous and just patently false comment about how this is not about millions of african americans being killed by police in the streets.  What kind of ridiculous hyperbole is that? No one has made that claim, and it demonstrates to me a complete lack of understanding of the real underlying issues. To me, it's pretty apparent what this is about, because you don't need to have a degree in sociology to know our system is screwed up, favors those in power, and part of that equation is historic and systematic racism.

That's not arguable.  Not by anyone with two eyes and basic cognition and objectivity.  Now, how to we ADDRESS the issues?

I don't know - you know what I DO know though?

Because of freakin' Kaep, you and I are talking about it.  Touche Kaep, even if I don't agree with the platform.  Let's be honest, between Goodell's recent statements, and finally some new focus on this issue, including for example the new dialogue in the NFL I mentioned above, it seems to be working.

And if we further some better and more constructive dialogue about race, enable police to better do their job and be protected while the communities they serve see the same result? I'll take some uncomfortable moments and guys taking a knee when many of us are grabbing a cold beer or pissing one out before the action starts. 

The faux outrage on this by people who all but wipe their asses with American Flag toilet paper just says it all, imo. 
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Response to #1. I will confess it was meant as an insult. I meant it to describe what I consider to be the "Online super citizens brigade." Probably doesn't help explain, but I don't feel like explaining it further right now since I am in a sour mood due to the annoying car repair work I have been doing today. Happy to do so another day. 

Response to #2. Perhaps I misunderstood you then. It seemed like you were saying you were against these protests, or at least the method, but now you have changed to fully support based on how you are seeing other people react to them. If I read that wrong, my bad. 

As far as the fact that we are talking about it, that is overrated. We arent even talking about the right things and nobody is really doing anything about it, and that goes for most of the NFL players too. Not all, but most. Some of those guys do some pretty great, targeted things. A lot of them contribute to the problems in this country though more than they contribute to solutions. Kneeling is easy. It is especially easy when you attempt to argue that you aren't being disrespectful.  

Tim started a thread about things that can actually be done. It didn't get too much participation and very few actual suggestions or ideas. Everybody just wants to complain that the system is broken. There are certainly some issues in some places(mostly due to people) with the system, but it is not broken. If it was broken that thread would have all sorts of exact laws or policies being brought up and exactly what needs to be changed. About the only laws brought up to change were drug laws.

Instead what you get are the results touted as proof the system is broken. Blacks only make up 6% of the student population at major universities but are 15% of the total population at that age, must be racism! That stat is meaningless, yet you see universities get pressured and new programs put in place and the gap remains or widens. 

Why do you think that is? 

 
KCitons said:
This is what I thought you meant, but I wanted to be make sure. Don't take this as anything but information. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or I would have posted before now. But I think it's warranted at this time. 

I took a job a few months back working for a non-profit that helps people. Most of them are black families. I was pursuing another job with a large bank at the same time I was interviewing with this organization. The bank job would have paid a lot more. It would have kept me in my comfort zone. In my previous job, I worked mostly with executive types in a corporate environment. I had limited interaction with people and really didn't care. I did my job and went home.  But, I made the decision that at this point of my life it's not just about money. So, I took the job with the non-profit.

Fast forward to a few weeks back. I was recruited by Paypal for a fraud position. One of the top 3-4 companies that I have always wanted to work for. I turned them down because for the first time in quite a while I was happy and I've been doing very well in my current role. Well enough that they gave me another department to manage a couple of weeks later. With it came a raise. I turned down half the raise and asked them to put it towards hiring more people to accomplish our mission. It may sound corny, but the personal changes I've felt over the past 3 months is worth more than anything monetary. Contrary to what posters here may think, I now have more compassion for those less fortunate. I can see the difference that change can make. I'm working longer hours. Not because I have to, but because I want to. 

The bolded above is wrong. I could lash out and turn it on everyone else in this thread by asking what are you doing to make things better. But, to be honest it doesn't matter. Each person has to find their own path. I would only hope that they take the time to get to know someone before they make assumptions. 
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nice post.  thank you.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Of course I stand by them. Backbone? It doesn't require backbone to stand behind magic football board posts, I find that concept kind of silly. 

This protest started with Colin on his rump as a middle finger to the flag. This protest started about police killing black men. His initial comments and doubling down with the pig socks make that quite clear. 

Those aren't palatable positions to most people. So the message started to morph. He started kneeling so people could try and say kneeling isn't disrespectful to the flag, which is a stupid argument to make since if it wasn't disrespectful it wouldn't be a freakin protest. People then started to speak on broader concepts, but it still really didn't get tons of traction and was dwindling since it is pretty obvious that kneeling is in fact disrespectful to the flag. Enter Trump. Now all of a sudden people are so understanding of the need to protest? As if it was some awakening and it caused them to do all sorts of new research on the matter? 

Your own words show the message had to be modified before it became more palatable to you.  

We both know millions of innocent black americans are not being murdered in the streets by police so you are obviously now speaking of different issues than what Colin was originally. There are, what 33k ,total killed by guns each year? It also doesn't make any logical sense that people's reaction to the protest is what made you understand the protest. The protest either stands on its own merit, or it doesn't. 

I also refuse to believe that Trump sticking his nose in the matter hasn't swayed your opinion. If you can honestly say it hasn't, I will concede that part of it. 

And again to be clear, I am not some flag and anthem die hard. I have openly admitted to leaving the room when the anthem comes on to go finish food prep, or any other last minute prep before the game. If I had a hat on at home, I likely wouldn't take it off.I have also said I wish they would get rid of the whole procedure.  I do stand at the stadium and obviously take my hat off there too. Not because I feel some amazing moving experience or deeper meaning. I just do it to be polite to any possible veterans around me. I have also said that these protests, unless they take up segments of the game, would never make me stop watching. 

All I ask is that people be honest about this. I mean the anthem itself is about the flag. It is right there in the damn name of the song. There is a long standing procedure for how to behave and in case you didn't know what that was the PA announcer reminds you and you can see people around you doing it. If you make a conscious choice to do otherwise, for whatever reason you choose, it is being disrespectful. 

Some people, like Colin, think disrespecting the flag is necessary to make a point. I am fine with that. You just cant have your cake and eat it too. You cant tell people that are upset about the flag or anthem that they are wrong and it isn't disrespectful and say they are just turning their back on the issues. That is twisting the message, which has obviously occurred.
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perfect or dang close.

 
Kaepernick has not filed a lawsuit.  He has filed a grievance.  I don't see any reason why it would influence the Cardinal's behavior and if it did, it would be bad for the NFL's position.  I don't do much labor and employment, but I'm sure bigbottom would confirm that  retaliating against an member of the bargaining class for using the internal grievance procedure is generally considered a no-no. 

 
If not for his ill-advised lawsuit, would Kaep be working out for the Cardinals this week?
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The Cardinals already have 2 backups with experience as NFL starters, so they're not very likely to be bringing in another quarterback.

Nonetheless, I agree that Kaepernick's grievance was filed prematurely. I think he would have had a stronger case if he waited until 5-6 additional teams needed replacement quarterbacks.

 
I support the player's who want to kneel but this grievance is silly.  It doesn't take collusion for 32 owners/GMs to each independently make the obvious decision that signing a below average player that is a massive media distraction isn't a good move.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Kaepernick has not filed a lawsuit.  He has filed a grievance.  I don't see any reason why it would influence the Cardinal's behavior and if it did, it would be bad for the NFL's position.  I don't do much labor and employment, but I'm sure bigbottom would confirm that  retaliating against an member of the bargaining class for using the internal grievance procedure is generally considered a no-no. 
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You mean legally or logically? 

 
Seems like the kneeling is fizzling out or they are not covering it as much anymore.
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This week there were 9 players who knelt and 11 who sat, plus there were 4 others who remained in the locker room during the anthem.

That's still quite a bit more than the number of players who protested before Trump started making an issue of it.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I support the player's who want to kneel but this grievance is silly.  It doesn't take collusion for 32 owners/GMs to each independently make the obvious decision that signing a below average player that is a massive media distraction isn't a good move.
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It only takes two teams for there to be any collusion in the NFL.

 
parasaurolophus said:
You mean legally or logically? 
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Neither.  I don't think putting any stock in him filing a complaint would be a rational decision.  That doesn't mean that Kaepernick has an easy grievance to prove.  He doesn't.  But it's impossible to prove without some discovery.  I mean, the very act of filing a grievance could be held against you the next time there's an opening, then the grievance system is just a giant fraud. 

We've reached a place where a lot of the perceived justifications may still be true in the eyes of some front offices but they're no longer very rational.  At this point, players are going to be asked about teams not signing Kaepernick (such as anytime a Hundley or a Stanton lays an egg).  He's already a "distraction."  And players are already kneeling.  The earth keeps spinning.  So Kaepernick kneeling wouldn't seem particularly divisive on team chemistry.  Every team is already having that conversation.

So the only possible reason to not sign him would be because you don't think he's good enough.  Well, he's certainly not a top 15 QB.  But he certainly wouldn't seem to be out of the top 45 or so either.  Those guys typically have jobs.  A bunch of teams may be independently acting irrationally.  That certainly isn't out of the question.  But it's also not crazy to wonder about concerted action. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Arizona already said they aren't interested in a free agent and will stick with Stanton and Gabbert.  Nothing to see here with the bogus collusion charges.
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I don't know why it's so important to not just see reality for what it almost surely is...

There absolutely is "some" level of collusion in terms of teams not wanting to bring Kaep into the fold - when he is clearly a better option than at least 15+ backups (and possibly most backups).

Now, that doesn't mean it technically rises to the "legal definition" and certainly doesn't mean there's enough to prove anything.  But you have to be a pretty dull bump on a log to look at the full scenario and conclude "oh, definitely no collusion"

Because the facts don't back that up, at all.
 

Why do you or others feel it's necessary to back the NFL's perspective here? I mean, it's obvious there's some effort to not bring Kaep into any camp, but in the end, he also "asked for it" if you want to say that. At the least, it's part of the responsibility of taking a stand, one that knowingly upset a good number of people.  But why people feel it's necessary to get the NFL's back is beyond me.

It would seem a lot more genuine to say that the NFL likely did have SOME level of collusion between/among owners, and that Kaep deserves what he got, and either way it can't and won't be proven. What's so wrong with that, FAR more likely scenario?

 
Joe Summer said:
This week there were 9 players who knelt and 11 who sat, plus there were 4 others who remained in the locker room during the anthem.

That's still quite a bit more than the number of players who protested before Trump started making an issue of it.
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16 of them from just two teams: Seattle and San Fran.   And since the 49ers are 0-6 nothing they do matters.  It's largely a non-issue across the league anymore, few and far between.

 
tonydead said:
16 of them from just two teams: Seattle and San Fran.   And since the 49ers are 0-6 nothing they do matters.  It's largely a non-issue across the league anymore, few and far between.
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If it’s such a non issue...why does the President still spend time on it?

 
Koya said:
There absolutely is "some" level of collusion in terms of teams not wanting to bring Kaep into the fold - when he is clearly a better option than at least 15+ backups (and possibly most backups).
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I think I'll just quote the HOF'R Quarterback Troy Aikman again:  Would Colin, having to learn the offense and being out of football as many week as he has, be any better of an option than Hundley?  Probably not.

That completely ignores the media circus that would follow him.  And it's not collusion to include that in your evaluation.  

 
Let's face it, Colin would have to be as good as Brady or Rodgers before any team would want to put up with the media circus.  

 
sho nuff said:
That’s not what I asked you.  You made an accusation that someone was called a racist simply for disagreeing.  This claims has been made before as well and was bogus.  Try backing up your accusation as others have been asked to do.
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If I'm not mistaken there is a whole 1500+ page thread on Trump...that anybody who voted for him is racist.

 
tonydead said:
I think I'll just quote the HOF'R Quarterback Troy Aikman again:  Would Colin, having to learn the offense and being out of football as many week as he has, be any better of an option than Hundley?  Probably not.

That completely ignores the media circus that would follow him.  And it's not collusion to include that in your evaluation.  
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All fair points - but I stand by my contention.  If someone really doesn't think at some point Jerry and some of his buds had discussions on this to the point of saying f that no way we're gonna pick him up, I have a bridge to sell them in a Brooklyn.

And, even if what you say is completely true, difficult to believe as that may be, still don't see the need to defend the owners as if not doing so means you are suddenly ok with Kaep and his form of protest / message. 

 
Koya said:
All fair points - but I stand by my contention.  If someone really doesn't think at some point Jerry and some of his buds had discussions on this to the point of saying f that no way we're gonna pick him up, I have a bridge to sell them in a Brooklyn.

And, even if what you say is completely true, difficult to believe as that may be, still don't see the need to defend the owners as if not doing so means you are suddenly ok with Kaep and his form of protest / message. 
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:tinfoilhat:

 
tonydead said:
Reinforcing the message of patriotism that apparently 30 of the 32 teams have received loud and clear.  
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I'd suggest jingoism and focus on the protest itself rather than the real underlying issues that harm millions of Americans is not Patriotism.  Especially using the bully pulpit of what should be a unifying position not one used to further divide and chastise.

But thats just me.

 
tonydead said:
Reinforcing the message of patriotism that apparently 30 of the 32 teams have received loud and clear.  
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How surprised are we that one of the 2 that still don't get it is the 49ers who remain divided and lost, thanks Colin. So weird you don't have a job.  :lmao:

 
Ditka Butkus said:
If I'm not mistaken there is a whole 1500+ page thread on Trump...that anybody who voted for him is racist.
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It's 2500 pages.

And for those that can't understand that voting for and especially still supporting Trump doesn't mean you are racist - but undoubtedly means you support a racist.

And a business fraud.

And an admitted serial sexual harasser.

And a bully who literally makes fun of people with physical disabilities like an immature 12 year old.

And proven habitual liar (honestly, quite possibly the greatest liar in the public realm no hyperbole)

So, supporting Trump doesn't make you racist. Or a fraud. Or a sexual harasser. Or a bully. Or a habitual liar.

It does mean you support a man who is all these things, and own with it everything that follows. 

Just own it - we aren't calling his supporters racist because they support him (many are and can be called as such for other reasons sadly), we are just saying they support one, and support the causes he stands for - along with the pattern of behavior he has shown for decades. 

So there - you and anyone else isn't a racist because you support trump.

Now own that you support one and a man of such low character as to check each box above.

 
Koya said:
It's 2500 pages.

And for those that can't understand that voting for and especially still supporting Trump doesn't mean you are racist - but undoubtedly means you support a racist.

And a business fraud.

And an admitted serial sexual harasser.

And a bully who literally makes fun of people with physical disabilities like an immature 12 year old.

And proven habitual liar (honestly, quite possibly the greatest liar in the public realm no hyperbole)

So, supporting Trump doesn't make you racist. Or a fraud. Or a sexual harasser. Or a bully. Or a habitual liar.

It does mean you support a man who is all these things, and own with it everything that follows. 

Just own it - we aren't calling his supporters racist because they support him (many are and can be called as such for other reasons sadly), we are just saying they support one, and support the causes he stands for - along with the pattern of behavior he has shown for decades. 

So there - you and anyone else isn't a racist because you support trump.

Now own that you support one and a man of such low character as to check each box above.
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Great!... glad you cleared that up

 
Koya said:
Dude, the 49ers dot suck because they are divided.  They just suck.
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Sure that's all, word around the league is coaches and GM's are seeing a trend towards QB's that are distractions and divide their teams instead of focusing on winning football games. CK truly is a pioneer, his phone should be ringing off the hook any minute now! :lmao:

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Neither.  I don't think putting any stock in him filing a complaint would be a rational decision.  That doesn't mean that Kaepernick has an easy grievance to prove.  He doesn't.  But it's impossible to prove without some discovery.  I mean, the very act of filing a grievance could be held against you the next time there's an opening, then the grievance system is just a giant fraud. 

We've reached a place where a lot of the perceived justifications may still be true in the eyes of some front offices but they're no longer very rational.  At this point, players are going to be asked about teams not signing Kaepernick (such as anytime a Hundley or a Stanton lays an egg).  He's already a "distraction."  And players are already kneeling.  The earth keeps spinning.  So Kaepernick kneeling wouldn't seem particularly divisive on team chemistry.  Every team is already having that conversation.

So the only possible reason to not sign him would be because you don't think he's good enough.  Well, he's certainly not a top 15 QB.  But he certainly wouldn't seem to be out of the top 45 or so either.  Those guys typically have jobs.  A bunch of teams may be independently acting irrationally.  That certainly isn't out of the question.  But it's also not crazy to wonder about concerted action. 
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its a little different to file a grievance against a different employer as opposed to pretty much an entire industry. Going to go out on a limb and say this isn't something that happens very often. I worked with union employees for 8 years and I never even heard of an applicant filing a collusion grievance. There definitely wasn't any specific language in the contract regarding collusion either.   

Your other arguments are very presumptuous as well. 

1. You have zero clue(as do I) if he would make a good backup QB. Plenty of on the field evidence shows he isn't a guy that has a great grasp of the passing game that could help the starter. A backup QB's job is not just to play when the starter can't.  

2. You have zero clue(as do I) what he would do to team chemistry. There is at least one scenario we know of where he didn't exactly behave like a player very good for chemistry. Not too common for QB's to get in an on the field fight with a defensive player. 

3. Big difference between getting a few token questions about if you are signing Kaep or not vs. having Colin on your roster and week in and week out fielding questions as well as knowing that the player you signed will be spending a decent amount of his time answering those questions. 

As far as teams behaving irrationally, that seems like a silly thing to say because the guy that was QB for a team that hasn't finished better than 29th in passing offense since 2012(when Alex Smith threw just as many passes as he did and they finished a whopping 23rd) doesn't have a job as QB. 

 
GoBirds said:
Sure that's all, word around the league is coaches and GM's are seeing a trend towards QB's that are distractions and divide their teams instead of focusing on winning football games. CK truly is a pioneer, his phone should be ringing off the hook any minute now! :lmao:
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If he divided the team so much then why was he voted the winner of the Len Eshmont award by his teammates for being courageous and inspirational?

 
GoBirds said:
Sure that's all, word around the league is coaches and GM's are seeing a trend towards QB's that are distractions and divide their teams instead of focusing on winning football games. CK truly is a pioneer, his phone should be ringing off the hook any minute now! :lmao:
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Uh, I only said the 49ers suck. :shrug:  

 
Koya said:
I don't know why it's so important to not just see reality for what it almost surely is...

There absolutely is "some" level of collusion in terms of teams not wanting to bring Kaep into the fold - when he is clearly a better option than at least 15+ backups (and possibly most backups).

Now, that doesn't mean it technically rises to the "legal definition" and certainly doesn't mean there's enough to prove anything.  But you have to be a pretty dull bump on a log to look at the full scenario and conclude "oh, definitely no collusion"

Because the facts don't back that up, at all.
 

Why do you or others feel it's necessary to back the NFL's perspective here? I mean, it's obvious there's some effort to not bring Kaep into any camp, but in the end, he also "asked for it" if you want to say that. At the least, it's part of the responsibility of taking a stand, one that knowingly upset a good number of people.  But why people feel it's necessary to get the NFL's back is beyond me.

It would seem a lot more genuine to say that the NFL likely did have SOME level of collusion between/among owners, and that Kaep deserves what he got, and either way it can't and won't be proven. What's so wrong with that, FAR more likely scenario?
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I don't think it's collusion if each individual team is coming to their own conclusion that he isn't worth signing.  If they can prove more, then that's fine but to assume it's fact is jumping to conclusions.  

First off, we should remember he was always more of a running QB when successful with SF so he isn't just a plug in type backup or spot starter for a team.  What he does well would require you changing your entire scheme and personnel.

More importantly though, everyone is just forgetting that he wasn't exactly a good locker room presence in SF, which judging from the amount of protesters on the team should have been the most hospitable locker room for him to be in.  There were reports well before he left the 49ers that he would have meals by himself instead of with his teammates and some saw him as aloof and/or arrogant.  I've always been a 49ers fan and I wanted him to succeed.  But it's revisionist history to think everything was just fine with him in SF when he opted out.  He opted out because he was going to be released otherwise, granted that was partially a scheme fit.  However, there were rumblings well before that he was not a leader in the locker room, which is what you need from your quarterback, so he likely would have been released even without the change in head coach/scheme.

 
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Dickies said:
If he divided the team so much then why was he voted the winner of the Len Eshmont award by his teammates for being courageous and inspirational?
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Your fallback is an award voted on by 49ers players, not a league award? 

I think you can handle the math, if you divide a team and have half the players buying into your drama then the others that are there to play football spread their votes over others that are there for football how does that break down? 

They sure did play inspired last year didn't they.  :X

 
Ditka Butkus said:
Great!... glad you cleared that up
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Just admit that it Does mean you support someone who is all those things.

That's the thing, it's disingenuous to highlight the "get" part of this discussion and purposefully leave out the "give" part.

And I don't find it particularly admirable for folks to purposely avoid the parts of a discussion they may not really like, but are fair game and good points none the less.

Admit it or not, we know that those who support Trump are ok with those things, at least to the degree they'd both vote for him and continue to support him even knowing he is all those things. 

 
Koya said:
I'd suggest jingoism and focus on the protest itself rather than the real underlying issues that harm millions of Americans is not Patriotism.  Especially using the bully pulpit of what should be a unifying position not one used to further divide and chastise.

But thats just me.
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Let's look a the guys on the other side of the argument shall we?:

Meshawn Lynch:  Suspended for coming off the bench and making contact with the ref.  A guy whose signature move is grabbing his nut sack when he crosses the goal line.

Michael Bennett:  Falsely makes a claim of police profiling in Las Vegas.

Sheldon Richardson:  lol, pick one; 140+ mile an hour police chase.

Rueben Foster: Failed drug test at combine.

Marquis Goodwin: Suspended a full year by USADA for doping.

Shall I go on?

These are the guys you want to represent the underlying issues of America?  No, it's just a bunch of selfish thugs that haven't properly grown up.  Guys like this will always think they are owed something.

 
tonydead said:
Let's look a the guys on the other side of the argument shall we?:

Meshawn Lynch:  Suspended for coming off the bench and making contact with the ref.  A guy whose signature move is grabbing his nut sack when he crosses the goal line.

Michael Bennett:  Falsely makes a claim of police profiling in Las Vegas.

Sheldon Richardson:  lol, pick one; 140+ mile an hour police chase.

Rueben Foster: Failed drug test at combine.

Marquis Goodwin: Suspended a full year by USADA for doping.

Shall I go on?

These are the guys you want to represent the underlying issues of America?  No, it's just a bunch of selfish thugs that haven't properly grown up.  Guys like this will always think they are owed something.
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Who said anything about wanting any individuals to specifically represent the underlying issues.

My much bigger concern are the underlying issues themselves! 

 
Koya said:
Just admit that it Does mean you support someone who is all those things.

That's the thing, it's disingenuous to highlight the "get" part of this discussion and purposefully leave out the "give" part.

And I don't find it particularly admirable for folks to purposely avoid the parts of a discussion they may not really like, but are fair game and good points none the less.

Admit it or not, we know that those who support Trump are ok with those things, at least to the degree they'd both vote for him and continue to support him even knowing he is all those things. 
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Well I didn't vote for him... but there are things that I certainly support...I learned a long time ago that all people of power have ####ed somebody over to get there.

 
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GordonGekko
Newsweek: "Democrats Have Forgotten The Working Class. It Will Cost Them" (7/14/22 14:39 PST)
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