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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (5 Viewers)

timschochet said:
I don’t think that’s their job. Their job is to “get them clicks”. 

Harvey Weinstein probably gave tons of money to charity (I’m guessing, I don’t know.) if he had, do you think this should be reported? I don’t. It’s irrelevant. 
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Harvey Weinstein took repeated actions over many years that showed his true character.  In the case of McNair, we are discussing an 80 year old man who spoke a long used phrase, on one occasion, that had one incorrect word in it.  Many people are saying it was intentional or showed his character.  I think looking at it in the context of his other deeds is relevant if you truly want to try and determine what was in his heart.  I don't know that it's necessarily the media's responsibility to report that.  But the media these days always reports things with one slant or the other and keeps everyone divided in their respective corners.  There's rarely any context to any story these days.

 
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timschochet said:
That’s your answer? What does that have to do with my point? 
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Because the discussion is about Kaepernick, kneeling, owners, and the NFL.  If you want to have false narratives with some political figure have at it but no I'm not going to engage that.

You asked me one question about the tweet I posted.  I answered it. You disagree and clearly aren't open-minded so move along.  I am.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Because the discussion is about Kaepernick, kneeling, owners, and the NFL.  If you want to have false narratives with some political figure have at it but no I'm not going to engage that.

You asked me one question about the tweet I posted.  I answered it. You disagree and clearly aren't open-minded so move along.  I am.
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I was tempted to answer this post with a  :lmao:  but of course that would be rude. Let’s just say that your definition of “open-minded” seems to be far removed from mine. 

 
timschochet said:
I was tempted to answer this post with a  :lmao:  but of course that would be rude. Let’s just say that your definition of “open-minded” seems to be far removed from mine. 
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Cool story, Tim.  I'm sure your  :lmao:  with passive aggressive words attached is way better than just a  :lmao: .  I'm sorry you have so much trouble with differing opinions.  I already told you that yes in the context of the McNair story I think the full story about the guy should be reported.  You're free to disagree but go ahead and turd up another thread if you want.  Enjoy the games today.   :thumbup:

 
Shula-holic said:
I don't know that it's necessarily the media's responsibility to report that.  But the media these days always reports things with one slant or the other and keeps everyone divided in their respective corners.  There's rarely any context to any story these days.
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I don’t think the significant differences that you pointed out between Weinstein and McNair, while certainly large, are relevant to my argument. But I wanted to focus on this part of your post. I think this is largely true, but it’s a function of television news, rather than the media deliberately trying to push a narrative, as I believe Rambling Wreck is trying to imply. TV news is about headlines. They’re never going to offer a complete context for most stories. Yet on the other hand we live in a society today where everybody has immediate access to all of the information on any subject we could name. So the full context is there for anyone who wants to seek it out. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Cool story, Tim.  I'm sure your  :lmao:  with passive aggressive words attached is way better than just a  :lmao: .  I'm sorry you have so much trouble with differing opinions.  I already told you that yes in the context of the McNair story I think the full story about the guy should be reported.  You're free to disagree but go ahead and turd up another thread if you want.  Enjoy the games today.   :thumbup:
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What I was trying to do, RW, was to ascertain from you whether or not you thought it was the media’s role to provide full context in all of its reporting- that’s why I brought up Weinstein. You refused to answer the question and called me closed minded out of nowhere. I haven’t insulted you in the least. Now you’re accusing me of “turding” up the thread. You’re the one who’s chosen to make this personal. 

 
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timschochet said:
I don’t think the significant differences that you pointed out between Weinstein and McNair, while certainly large, are relevant to my argument. But I wanted to focus on this part of your post. I think this is largely true, but it’s a function of television news, rather than the media deliberately trying to push a narrative, as I believe Rambling Wreck is trying to imply. TV news is about headlines. They’re never going to offer a complete context for most stories. Yet on the other hand we live in a society today where everybody has immediate access to all of the information on any subject we could name. So the full context is there for anyone who wants to seek it out. 
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Perhaps.  It's naive for anyone to think that news reporters ever didn't have their own political slant.  But when you think back to the 80's or 90's and compare to today, you could find coverage that was a lot more down the middle.  I agree that was an era when all the other information wasn't available on the internet.  But I don't think very many people on either side truly seek out the truth and proper context with these stories.  I'm obviously someone who leans conservative.  I live in a state however that is about to elect Roy Moore to the Senate.  I'm not going to be a part of that.  But there are so many people here who won't look for themselves to see if these reports about him are true.  They'll say these stories are made up, exaggerated, whatever.  I'm using that example as how it can happen on the right, but it happens on the left as well.

 
Shula-holic said:
Perhaps.  It's naive for anyone to think that news reporters ever didn't have their own political slant.  But when you think back to the 80's or 90's and compare to today, you could find coverage that was a lot more down the middle.  I agree that was an era when all the other information wasn't available on the internet.  But I don't think very many people on either side truly seek out the truth and proper context with these stories.  I'm obviously someone who leans conservative.  I live in a state however that is about to elect Roy Moore to the Senate.  I'm not going to be a part of that.  But there are so many people here who won't look for themselves to see if these reports about him are true.  They'll say these stories are made up, exaggerated, whatever.  I'm using that example as how it can happen on the right, but it happens on the left as well.
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Great post, and I agree with much of it. But I would point out that, regarding those people who won’t look up stories about Moore- would reporting them on the news make any difference? Wouldn’t they just assume that the news was part of the “liberal media” and not to be trusted? I don’t think the people you describe can be reached because they’re not willing to be reached. 

And of course you’re right that happens on the left as well. But I’m not convinced that’s relevant to the McNair case. Or to how people view Kaepernick for that matter. Both of these guys, while public figures, are not politicians. Their newsworthiness, outside of pure sports, are going to be only when they do something controversial or negative. Positive stuff isn’t news, though it may make for a puff piece on one of the NFL shows before the next game. 

 
squistion said:
Well, the press has no problem dredging up all the negative things that have been done, so it is arguable that for consistency, the good things should also be mentioned to help give us some overall perspective on past actions that may or may not reflect on their character.

In Kaep's case, the $800k he has donated to various organizations that focus on helping their communities has been either ignored or dismissed by his critics as being irrelevant to the kneeling protest issue. With that in mind, I am not sure I see how McNair's philanthropy mitigates how he views the players on his team.
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How exactly does McNair view his players? McNair screwed up one word of a cliché that has been around forver and now he is anti-player?

I don`t know what McNair feels about anything...not one of us knows how he feels about anything.

 
Da Guru said:
How exactly does McNair view his players? McNair screwed up one word of a cliché that has been around forver and now he is anti-player?

I don`t know what McNair feels about anything...not one of us knows how he feels about anything.
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Absolutely true. 

 
Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 4h4 hours ago

Though #Texans owner Bob McNair did apologize to players yesterday, it did not go over well.

I’m told to expect some form of protest today

 
Da Guru said:
How exactly does McNair view his players? McNair screwed up one word of a cliché that has been around forver and now he is anti-player?

I don`t know what McNair feels about anything...not one of us knows how he feels about anything.
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There is a bit more to it than that. A few pages back Duane Brown talked about McNair's remarks to the team after Obama was elected, which ranked him a bit and this from Adam Schifter:

Ian Rapoport‏ @RapSheet 4h4 hours ago

#Texans LT Duane Brown held out this season & a key reason was his feelings

on owner Bob McNair’s personal views, I’m told. This didn’t help

 
timschochet said:
Great post, and I agree with much of it. But I would point out that, regarding those people who won’t look up stories about Moore- would reporting them on the news make any difference? Wouldn’t they just assume that the news was part of the “liberal media” and not to be trusted? I don’t think the people you describe can be reached because they’re not willing to be reached. 

And of course you’re right that happens on the left as well. But I’m not convinced that’s relevant to the McNair case. Or to how people view Kaepernick for that matter. Both of these guys, while public figures, are not politicians. Their newsworthiness, outside of pure sports, are going to be only when they do something controversial or negative. Positive stuff isn’t news, though it may make for a puff piece on one of the NFL shows before the next game. 
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I agree many who vote for Moore wouldn't be reached.  We actually do get some negative Moore stories here and many here don't believe them or think for whatever reason Moore was justified in breaking his oaths in the past. 

But I think relating that back to the Kaepernick/McNair situations is why people are dug in so hard.  Especially when it comes to the kneeling during the anthem, people have already decided how they believe, just like often times they decide to blindly believe in a candidate for office.  I don't believe dialogue is going to change anyone's mind, at least not very many people. 

The NFL's issue is for those who disagree with kneeling during the anthem, while many have decided to boycott, not watch as much, whatever you want to call it, there are still some who feel it's not the right way to protest who do still watch the games.  I'm actually someone who falls into this camp.  As this drags on and becomes saturated in politics, the share of those people who either decide to not watch for a period of time or become totally apathetic to the league grows.  To me as a businessman, apathy from a customer is the worst thing that can happen.  If a consumer is upset at you, you can take steps to repair that relationship.  That's regardless of what caused the issue, who was at fault, etc.  But when someone is truly apathetic, there's no regaining that previous connection. 

I truly don't remember a sports league in this type of long term peril at damaging its relationship with its fans.  The MLB players' strike of 1993 is the closest thing I can remember to it.  MLB did lose a lot of fans, but percentage wise I don't think it was near as bad as this is going to end up.  It was also not a political issue.  MLB didn't have the danger of an extremist divide in politics fracturing its fan base.  Further, the strike eventually had to come to an end so that healing process could begin.  This situation has no end in sight, nor obvious path to ending it in the future.  It appears this is an open ended situation that's going to continue to suffocate the league's share of fans.

 
Shaun King‏ @ShaunKing 2h2 hours ago

Spoke w/ several players for the @HoustonTexans this AM.

They are planning a protest for today. Many said they really didn’t want to play.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Bet the house on the Seahawks today. Teams rarely play well when distracted by stuff like this. 
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I dunno, it can cut both ways, sometimes teams can be more focused, although I wouldn't count on it here and I am certainly not that comfortable starting Hopkins (although I have no other viable alternatives in that league).

 
squistion said:
Shaun King‏ @ShaunKing 2h2 hours ago

Spoke w/ several players for the @HoustonTexans this AM.

They are planning a protest for today. Many said they really didn’t want to play.
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When I started my first job at Ford my boss who ended up VP of American Operations was a first class doosh to everyone in our department.  Many days I really did not want to go to work just because of him.  Then I realized I liked my job and was getting paid pretty good to do a job even thought I hated him. Plus I just bought a new car and my first home and I needed a paycheck.

 
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Da Guru said:
When I started my first job at Ford my boss who ended up VP of American Operations was a first class doosh to everyone in our department.  Many days I really did not want to go to work just because of him.  Then I realized I was getting paid pretty good to do a job even thought I hated him. Plus I just bought a new car and my first home and I needed a paycheck.
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:yes:  

Players talking to Shaun King probably doesn't help the situation either, since he is known for making mountains out of mole hills.  He is the textbook definition of a race baiter. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
:yes:  

Players talking to Shaun King probably doesn't help the situation either, since he is known for making mountains out of mole hills.  He is the textbook definition of a race baiter. 
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I really hate this term. I don't know anything about Shaun King, but I do know that 90% of the time anyone uses the term "race-baiter", it's misapplied and unjust.

 
I believe that "race-baiting" is a term used, mostly by white conservatives, to attack blacks who dare to speak candidly about racial issues in this country.

 
timschochet said:
I really hate this term. I don't know anything about Shaun King, but I do know that 90% of the time anyone uses the term "race-baiter", it's misapplied and unjust.
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And it seems only used to describe those advocating racial equality for AAs or speaking about issues of concern to the black community.

 
Da Guru said:
When I started my first job at Ford my boss who ended up VP of American Operations was a first class doosh to everyone in our department.  Many days I really did not want to go to work just because of him.  Then I realized I was getting paid pretty good to do a job even thought I hated him. Plus I just bought a new car and my first home and I needed a paycheck.
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Yeah, that’s totally the same as the relationship between an NFL player and the team owner who is a big Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump donor and has a history of racially insensitive behavior.  The problem is the player isn’t sucking it up enough.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Yeah, that’s totally the same as the relationship between an NFL player and the team owner who is a big Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump donor and has a history of racially insensitive behavior.  The problem is the player isn’t sucking it up enough.
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How many of us haven't had a boss in the past whose political leanings weren't our own?  He's free to sit out if he wants and forego his game check just as any employee would be free to do the same.  

 
timschochet said:
What I was trying to do, RW, was to ascertain from you whether or not you thought it was the media’s role to provide full context in all of its reporting- that’s why I brought up Weinstein. You refused to answer the question and called me closed minded out of nowhere. I haven’t insulted you in the least. Now you’re accusing me of “turding” up the thread. You’re the one who’s chosen to make this personal. 
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No you asked me that question and I answered.  It wasn’t good enough for you so you presented a false narrative that has zero to do with the thread or the person I’m discussing.  I chose to pass on that and you  :lmao:  me.  Which is fine just don’t act like I didn’t answer your question that was relevant to the topic 

 
Da Guru said:
When I started my first job at Ford my boss who ended up VP of American Operations was a first class doosh to everyone in our department.  Many days I really did not want to go to work just because of him.  Then I realized I was getting paid pretty good to do a job even thought I hated him. Plus I just bought a new car and my first home and I needed a paycheck.
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This is similar to the posts that occur every time there is a police shooting of a young black man: "When I was stopped by the police, I followed all the instructions, and was respectful, and they let me go."

You aren't one of them. It's not the same.

 
timschochet said:
This is similar to the posts that occur every time there is a police shooting of a young black man: "When I was stopped by the police, I followed all the instructions, and was respectful, and they let me go."

You aren't one of them. It's not the same.
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And here's the disconnect that the sides dug in will never get by.  Police shootings can be debated and especially individual cases like Philando Castille many people who might even be to the right on this issue could agree to discuss and examine.  But an NFL player if he truly feels his owner is this bad has a lot better financial standing to walk away from his job than the average employee.  There's a large segment of the population, who is never going to feel sorry for him because he's working for a boss who supported a different candidate or misspoke a word in his 80's.  We are really at a perilous time moving forward of ever functioning as a united society if we can't even work and get along with someone whose views differ from our own.

 
Shula-holic said:
And here's the disconnect that the sides dug in will never get by.  Police shootings can be debated and especially individual cases like Philando Castille many people who might even be to the right on this issue could agree to discuss and examine.  But an NFL player if he truly feels his owner is this bad has a lot better financial standing to walk away from his job than the average employee.  There's a large segment of the population, who is never going to feel sorry for him because he's working for a boss who supported a different candidate or misspoke a word in his 80's.  We are really at a perilous time moving forward of ever functioning as a united society if we can't even work and get along with someone whose views differ from our own.
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Other than right after Pearl Harbor and 9/11, when has it been any different. As Yankee23fan has pointed out many times in this forum, we have NEVER functioned as a unified society. Yet somehow we manage to muddle through.

 
timschochet said:
This is similar to the posts that occur every time there is a police shooting of a young black man: "When I was stopped by the police, I followed all the instructions, and was respectful, and they let me go."

You aren't one of them. It's not the same.
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How are you  relating the shooting of someone by a cop to playing or not playing a football game for pay?

 
squistion said:
Shaun King‏ @ShaunKing 2h2 hours ago

Spoke w/ several players for the @HoustonTexans this AM.

They are planning a protest for today. Many said they really didn’t want to play.
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Excellent. Punish Patriotism because you'r e angry at your employer? If they refused to play, it would cost them a paycheck. Kneeling has no effect on the players or owner. 

 
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Da Guru said:
How are you  relating the shooting of someone by a cop to playing or not playing a football game for pay?
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I'm not. I'm relating your response to the responses we read when that happens. It also reminds me of during the Hillary email scandal when people wrote, "If I did what she did, I'd be arrested!"

My point is that you're not an African-American NFL football player. Your circumstances are VERY different from those. Your personal job experiences do not apply (neither do mine, or anyone here.)

 
Da Guru said:
How exactly does McNair view his players? McNair screwed up one word of a cliché that has been around forver and now he is anti-player?

I don`t know what McNair feels about anything...not one of us knows how he feels about anything.
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Exactly. We don't know the relationships between him and his staff so we should all reserve judgement. 

 
timschochet said:
I'm not. I'm relating your response to the responses we read when that happens. It also reminds me of during the Hillary email scandal when people wrote, "If I did what she did, I'd be arrested!"

My point is that you're not an African-American NFL football player. Your circumstances are VERY different from those. Your personal job experiences do not apply (neither do mine, or anyone here.)
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And those players also didn't serve in the military. 

If only there was a player that also served in the military. Oh wait........

 
KCitons said:
Excellent. Punish Patriotism because your angry at your employer? If they refused to play, it would cost them a paycheck. Kneeling has no effect on the players or owner. 
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As much as I've criticized the kneeling as counterproductive, it is NOT "punishing patriotism." Actually, protesting the National Anthem in such a public, disrespectful fashion could be considered an act of patriotism. That's how I see it.

 
timschochet said:
I'm not. I'm relating your response to the responses we read when that happens. It also reminds me of during the Hillary email scandal when people wrote, "If I did what she did, I'd be arrested!"

My point is that you're not an African-American NFL football player. Your circumstances are VERY different from those. Your personal job experiences do not apply (neither do mine, or anyone here.)
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Everybody works for a paycheck..regardless of the amount in that way we are all the same.

 
KCitons said:
And those players also didn't serve in the military. 

If only there was a player that also served in the military. Oh wait........
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There was one and he got killed by friendly fire and the military tried to hide it. Then the NFL hijacked him name and image for self promotion and good PR despite his family saying he never would have wanted that.

 
KCitons said:
Turn on the tv. Showing players kneeling instead of concentrating on the National Anthem is taking away from Patriotism.
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Remember people view this differently. I see it as expressing patriotism in a different way. To be American is to have the right of protest. It's fundamental imo.

 
Da Guru said:
Everybody works for a paycheck..regardless of the amount in that way we are all the same.
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African-Americans who are in a public position often feel a responsibility, beyond the issue of their paycheck, to take actions that they believe in the cause of justice and equality for the African-American community as a whole. I would suggest that neither you nor I, as white people, have ever felt such a responsibility, and therefore we cannot relate to their decision-making.

 
One of things I am most proud of about America is that it's a place that allows voices of dissent to be heard. It allows for protest of authority and it respects the minority.

 
KCitons said:
Exactly. Are you taking into account that both sides have a point of view. If you do, then you have to agree that this angers people. It's not uniting people.
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I agree completely. Which is part of the reason that I oppose this form of protest.

That being said, I continue to object to your use of terminology. It is not punishing patriotism.

 
I've never bought the patriotism angle in regards to the anthem and the military, Some in the military think you should stand for the anthem; some in the military do not have a problem if you do not stand. As always, it is not as black and white as some would have us believe.

Ultimately, and I believe I have said this before, if you are on company time and your boss requires you to do something that is more than reasonable, you do it, or suffer the consequences.  I support the right of everyone to peacefully protest on their own time.  When you are an company time, if your employee doesn't want you to do it, you either don't do it or deal with the fall-out. 

 
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