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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Awesome
- Start date
Shula-holic
Footballguy
As a 49ers fan let me say that there’s hardly anyone at the new stadium to buy concessions so it’s no big loss. What a colossal dumpster fire that stadium is.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Paying customers are the ones driving the owners' decisionmaking on this issue, as you've often said, and I agree.
So setting aside the owners' role here (obviously I wasn't serious with my proposal that they kick out every Baltimore fan), why do the fans collectively tolerate yelling during the national anthem but not silent kneeling or the raising of a fist? What difference does paying vs being paid make? Disrespect is disrespect. If paying money entitles you to disrespect the anthem, does that mean the more money you pay the more disrespectful you can be? Can the people in the luxury suites wipe their ### with the flag mid-anthem with everyone's blessing?
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The Frankman
Footballguy
It's a non-decision that will make no one happy later on. If tons of player stay in the locker room, I can't wait until the first complaint of "I didn't pay money to not see players on the sidelines during the national anthem!" Then the NFL will legislate new rules on players in the locker room during the anthem and all Hell will break loose.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
It's sad that anyone would make a blanket assumption that players who are still in the locker room are protesting.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Jets chairman Christopher Johnson says he’ll pay anthem-related league fines for his players
Two owners so far doing the right thing. That's two more than I would have guessed. One exposing obvious hypocrisy, and one supporting his players. The latter also might turn out to be self-interest, as it makes the team a more attractive option to free agents (like any pro-labor employer policy).
Two owners so far doing the right thing. That's two more than I would have guessed. One exposing obvious hypocrisy, and one supporting his players. The latter also might turn out to be self-interest, as it makes the team a more attractive option to free agents (like any pro-labor employer policy).
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
Has anyone seen the full rule? Wondering if it as limited as "Must stand" or a more comprehensive list of items like the NBA has, which were designed to prevent players from being a distraction or disrespectful. (stand in a dignified position, no gum chewing, no dribbling, etc) The former would come across as trying to avoid a specific behavior (which we know it is) while the latter is more about general environment they want to create. The former would seem to allow alternative forms of protest like raised fist or turning back to the flag and anthem singer. Curious how much thoughtfulness and foresight went into the rule. I also agree with those pointing out staying in the locker room is a form of protest and will get coverage.
Here are the NBA rules:
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/913533564205043712/photo/1?tfw_creator=ColinCBSSports&tfw_site=cbssports&ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbssports.com%2Fnba%2Fnews%2Fnba-commish-adam-silver-expects-players-to-stand-for-anthem-cites-league-rule%2F
Here are the NBA rules:
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/913533564205043712/photo/1?tfw_creator=ColinCBSSports&tfw_site=cbssports&ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbssports.com%2Fnba%2Fnews%2Fnba-commish-adam-silver-expects-players-to-stand-for-anthem-cites-league-rule%2F
squistion
Footballguy
Synthesizer
Footballguy
So players have been kneeling to protest police brutality and racial inequality. I still haven't heard what criteria must be met in order for players to stop protesting.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
"Jobs and Freedom? Could you BE any more vague? Give me some specific action items that would satisfy you or this protest is useless."
-Synthesizer, observing MLK's March on Washington in 1963.
The NBA % is higher and they require all athletes to stand during the National Anthem.
joffer
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Welll....
I almost never disagree with you, Tobias, but in fact, the March on Washington did have a series of specific goals:
Passage of meaningful civil rights legislation;
Immediate elimination of school segregation;
A program of public works, including job training, for the unemployed;
A Federal law prohibiting discrimination in public or private hiring;
A $2-an-hour minimum wage nationwide (equivalent to $16 in 2017);
Withholding Federal funds from programs that tolerate discrimination;
Enforcement of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution by reducing congressional representation from States that disenfranchise citizens;
A broadened Fair Labor Standards Act to currently excluded employment areas;
Authority for the Attorney General to institute injunctive suits when constitutional rights are violated.[44]
My criticism of Kaepernick's protest all along has been similar to Hillary's criticism of the Black Lives Matter movement- no specifics. Now this has nothing to do with his right to protest, or the NFL's stupidity (IMO) in attempting to stop it. But I have to question the ultimate effectiveness of any protest in which there are no specific goals.
squistion
Footballguy
Benjamin Allbright @AllbrightNFL 2h2 hours ago
The NFL Owners: We want this protest conversation thing to die off and focus on football.
The NFL Owners, as intellectuals: I wonder what happens if we pour kerosene on these smoldering embers...
lindsey ok @lindseyyok 1h1 hour ago
The NFL is Top 10 at making an issue 100 times worse than it would be if they just left it alone
The NFL Owners: We want this protest conversation thing to die off and focus on football.
The NFL Owners, as intellectuals: I wonder what happens if we pour kerosene on these smoldering embers...
lindsey ok @lindseyyok 1h1 hour ago
The NFL is Top 10 at making an issue 100 times worse than it would be if they just left it alone
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
So stupid. Forcing your employees to show "patriotism" in a specific way.
joffer
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The NBA has earned a lot of goodwill by allowing its players wide berth to express themselves on social issues. It afford to have this controversy-avoiding policy because the players feel free to express themselves in countless other ways, including before, during and immediately after games, and don't even feel the need to test the policy by violating it. Also pro-labor fans like me don't view the owners as particularly oppressive, for these and other reasons.
The NFL is pretty much the exact opposite of that. Jerry Jones would probably burn Texas Stadium to the ground before letting his players wear "I Can't Breathe" shirts during warm-ups.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Who knows..maybe in the beginning. The first few games of the season they were showing all the players who kneeled...After game 8 or so it kinda fizzled out anyway in terms of players kneeling so it was not covered as much.
squistion
Footballguy
https://www.nflpa.com/Contents/Item/Display/77152
For Immediate Release
May 23, 2018
NFLPA Statement on New Anthem Policy
The NFL chose to not consult the union in the development of this new “policy.” NFL players have shown their patriotism through their social activism, their community service, in support of our military and law enforcement and yes, through their protests to raise awareness about the issues they care about.
The vote by NFL club CEOs today contradicts the statements made to our player leadership by Commissioner Roger Goodell and the Chairman of the NFL’s Management Council John Mara about the principles, values and patriotism of our League.
Our union will review the new “policy” and challenge any aspect of it that is inconsistent with the collective bargaining agreement.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I've always seen/understood the 1963 march to have a much more vague focus, so apologies to @Synthesizer and others if I was mistaken.
Still, that just means I chose a poor example IMO. Kaepernick and others have said what they're protesting and what they'd like to see changed, albeit not in detail. Others have done the same and found success- the women's march, for example, seems to have triggered a wave of women being more active in politics including a jump in female candidates for office, and arguably laid the groundwork for the #metoo movement, even if those goals weren't explicitly stated. The 1968 black power salutes are probably the closest parallel to these protests- that were even more vague in terms of goals, but it set the stage for awareness and athlete activism and is generally seen as an important moment.
timschochet
Footballguy
Just watched an interview with Michael Haden. I really love him. As usual, he expressed my views exactly. He revealed himself as a Steelers fan, and said that he views NFL games as an escape from the serious issues of the day, so he really disapproved of what Kaepernick was doing...until Trump got involved. Now, strictly because of the President's involvement on an issue in which the government has no place, Haden is on the side of the players.
the NBA let Donald Sterling own a team for three decades despite a long history of racist and sexist abuse. ATLANTA — Despite the NFL’s approval of a revised policy that requires players on the field to stand during the national anthem, Jets chairman Christopher Johnson told Newsday on Wednesday that his players are free to take a knee or perform some other protest without fear of repercussion from the team.
League owners unanimously adopted a policy that allows players who don’t want to participate in the anthem to remain in the locker room. Players who do appear on the field for the anthem must stand; if they don’t, their respective club faces a league-issued fine and teams can levy additional fines.
“I do not like imposing any club-specific rules,” Johnson said. “If somebody [on the Jets] takes a knee, that fine will be borne by the organization, by me, not the players. I never want to put restrictions on the speech of our players. Do I prefer that they stand? Of course. But I understand if they felt the need to protest. There are some big, complicated issues that we’re all struggling with, and our players are on the front lines. I don’t want to come down on them like a ton of bricks, and I won’t. There will be no club fines or suspensions or any sort of repercussions. If the team gets fined, that’s just something I’ll have to bear.”
Johnson has been highly critical of the possibility that owners would require players to stand. During the owners meetings in Orlando in March, Johnson told reporters he didn’t feel a change in protocol was necessary. “I know there’s some discussion of keeping players off the field until after the anthem. I think that’s a particularly bad idea . . . I just think that trying to forcibly get the players to shut up is a fantastically bad idea.”
League owners unanimously adopted a policy that allows players who don’t want to participate in the anthem to remain in the locker room. Players who do appear on the field for the anthem must stand; if they don’t, their respective club faces a league-issued fine and teams can levy additional fines.
“I do not like imposing any club-specific rules,” Johnson said. “If somebody [on the Jets] takes a knee, that fine will be borne by the organization, by me, not the players. I never want to put restrictions on the speech of our players. Do I prefer that they stand? Of course. But I understand if they felt the need to protest. There are some big, complicated issues that we’re all struggling with, and our players are on the front lines. I don’t want to come down on them like a ton of bricks, and I won’t. There will be no club fines or suspensions or any sort of repercussions. If the team gets fined, that’s just something I’ll have to bear.”
Johnson has been highly critical of the possibility that owners would require players to stand. During the owners meetings in Orlando in March, Johnson told reporters he didn’t feel a change in protocol was necessary. “I know there’s some discussion of keeping players off the field until after the anthem. I think that’s a particularly bad idea . . . I just think that trying to forcibly get the players to shut up is a fantastically bad idea.”
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
^ That's especially significant since the actual owner, Woody Johnson, is in the Trump administration.
Though if the vote was unanimous, did he still vote for it? Or abstain like York?
ETA- He explains later in the article:
“I seriously struggled with this,” he said of the anthem modifications approved by the owners. “You know my position on the anthem, and you have to understand that the plan we ended up with, due to some serious work in the [meeting] room, was vastly less onerous than the one that was presented to me late last week. In the end, I felt I had to support it from a membership standpoint.”
The fact that Johnson will pay any fines out of his own pocket and not sanction any players who may want to demonstrate during the anthem made it more palatable that he join his fellow owners in approving the anthem protocol.
“Even without those fines, this is going to be tough on the players, and I want a chance to speak with the coaches and other players to get feedback on this policy and to build on the good work and momentum that we have built up on these issues of social justice, on legislation, and all the things that we can do,” he said. “I don’t think that this policy will interfere with that at all.
Though if the vote was unanimous, did he still vote for it? Or abstain like York?
ETA- He explains later in the article:
“I seriously struggled with this,” he said of the anthem modifications approved by the owners. “You know my position on the anthem, and you have to understand that the plan we ended up with, due to some serious work in the [meeting] room, was vastly less onerous than the one that was presented to me late last week. In the end, I felt I had to support it from a membership standpoint.”
The fact that Johnson will pay any fines out of his own pocket and not sanction any players who may want to demonstrate during the anthem made it more palatable that he join his fellow owners in approving the anthem protocol.
“Even without those fines, this is going to be tough on the players, and I want a chance to speak with the coaches and other players to get feedback on this policy and to build on the good work and momentum that we have built up on these issues of social justice, on legislation, and all the things that we can do,” he said. “I don’t think that this policy will interfere with that at all.
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Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Dallas wouldn't get penalized. And they need all the help that they can get so I'm all for itTobiasFunke said:
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
We told you that last year and you disagreed.timschochet said:
Calvitron Johnson
Footballguy
Sinn Fein said:I am officially not going to watch the NFL this season.
Who is with me?
See ya in September.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Those thoughts have been posted here a tontimschochet said:
timschochet
Footballguy
You may see me, but I am not watching any NFL this year.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I kind of have to disagree on this one. ESPN, this past year, actually ran on the crawl across the bottom of their programming who was protesting. On the front page of their website, they also had a section listing the players who protested.squistion said:
So I think it would be widely shown who was doing what.
Agreed. They won't be able to resist reporting. 38% of the country will want to know for sure...
squistion
Footballguy
That is different. That was actually protesting on the field in front of everyone. In the locker room it is out of sight out of mind - it can't be widely shown if no one sees it (which is why the NFL has adopted this new policy). Networks are not going to give updates on that.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
If someone stays in the locker room during the anthem you can bet your ### it will be reported
squistion
Footballguy
Maybe the first week or two, then after that it will be a non-story. You honestly think viewers will be waiting with bated breath for news on who stayed in the locker room? I don't think so.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Okay. But how will you know if they're staying in the locker room as a protest, or if they're in the locker room for another reason?
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I don't think anyone was waiting with baited breath last yr, yet as was posted above, it was reported ad nauseum
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Interesting. I seem to recall people correcting me and making a point that colin wasnt on the field. Funny that all those posts say "squistion likes this"
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Well, unless they have the backyard trots, I can't think of any other reason they'd not come out except as a protest
Joe Summer
Footballguy
You want to be outraged that badly?
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