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Why Did Roman Civilization Fall (and are there any contemporary US parallels)? (1 Viewer)

Bob Magaw

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
Gibbon (not the simian kind) addressed the former question by pounding out the monumental History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

* Contemporary doesn't necessarily connote the current administration. Republicans and Democrats both seem to be plagued by corruption, so as in Rome, some problems may be systemic (in other words, beyond the scope of and not amenable to glib, facile, simplistic partisan answers).

Also worth pointing out that while Rome proper fell considerably earlier, a former part of the Roman Empire, Constantinople, didn't fall for more than a millennium later. So, A) this type of historical analysis is complicated by the fact that there aren't neat demarcation lines that separate one era from another (like Medieval and "Modern"), and B) the "Fall of the Roman Empire" took hundreds of (or depending on how you define it, over a thousand) years - longer than the span of US history and sum total of its existence.

 
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If you simply google the first question, one of the first hits is a good History Channel link that cites eight reasons. There do appear to be some parallels.

* Point taken on nukes.

 
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-fish- said:
Are you really trying to defend your ignorance after all of your pseudointellectual bull####?
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Not at all. Just pointing out that the fall of Rome came about from too many people wasting their time with silly things, such as religion and judging other people's grammar. 

 
Since assassination came up, the History Channel article mentioned 20 Emperors serving in a little over a half century span at one point, usually replacing an assassinated predecessor, and at one point, with the Praetorian Guard even throwing it up (not a vomitorium reference) to the highest bidder. Some of these matters were alluded to in the Ridley Scott film Gladiator, as well as the earlier Samuel Bronkowitz production (also responsible for other historical dramas El Cid, King of Kings/Anthony Mann directed Fall of the Roman Empire, which somewhat overlap, with Richard Harris playing Marcus Aurelius and Juaqin Phoenix his treacherous, incompetent, corrupt son in the former version, and Obiwan Kenobi and the father from Sound of Music their counterparts. Come to think of it, the brutal and oppressive nature of the Roman Empire was also conveyed in Spartacus, as well as movies like Quo Vadis (one of the grand daddies of these massive Roman spectacles), with Peter Ustinov as Nero, and Ben Hur.

The article also mentioned when the nomadic Asiatic armies, the Mongol hordes and Huns swept through Northern Europe, and Visigoths were grudgingly allowed to cross the Danube, they were at times treated with extreme cruelty. In one example, a contemporary Roman historian claimed Romans at times forced the so called barbarians to to trade their children to slavery just for dog food. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
Not at all. Just pointing out that the fall of Rome came about from too many people wasting their time with silly things, such as religion and judging other people's grammar. 
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Perhaps language problems caused a significant amount of problems by trying to assimilate multiple cultures.  And the fact that you don't know basic English isn't grounds for you to attack others.  

 
-fish- said:
Perhaps language problems caused a significant amount of problems by trying to assimilate multiple cultures.  And the fact that you don't know basic English isn't grounds for you to attack others.  
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The purpose of language is communication. If the message is sent and received, even with errors in language, then communication has occurred and the purpose has been achieved. No one in the English speaking world fails to communicate their message by using effect and affect wrong, thus the purpose of my post was met.

Grammar police need to point out the errors of others even when the errors of others don't harm them at all. There's another type of person who is like that too. Christians need to point out the sins of others even when the sins of others don't harm them at all. Both of these kind of people are highly annoying. Your past few posts being a prime example. 

 
I suppose the parallel is that Canada is going to invade us from the north like the Visigoths.  Can't trust those sneaky Canucks.

 
Politician Spock said:
The purpose of language is communication. If the message is sent and received, even with errors in language, then communication has occurred and the purpose has been achieved. No one in the English speaking world fails to communicate their message by using effect and affect wrong, thus the purpose of my post was met.

Grammar police need to point out the errors of others even when the errors of others don't harm them at all. There's another type of person who is like that too. Christians need to point out the sins of others even when the sins of others don't harm them at all. Both of these kind of people are highly annoying. Your past few posts being a prime example. 
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Yes, it's my fault you don't have a command of the language.   You continually spout your positions as if you're authoritative and intellectual, but you constantly expose yourself, which tells me that most likely you're just regurgitating poorly edited blog posts.  Blame others if you wish, or you could actually try to understand what the #### you're saying.   

 
Bob Magaw said:
Since assassination came up, the History Channel article mentioned 20 Emperors serving in a little over a half century span at one point, usually replacing an assassinated predecessor, and at one point, with the Praetorian Guard even throwing it up (not a vomitorium reference) to the highest bidder. Some of these matters were alluded to in the Ridley Scott film Gladiator, as well as the earlier Samuel Bronkowitz production (also responsible for other historical dramas El Cid, King of Kings/Anthony Mann directed Fall of the Roman Empire, which somewhat overlap, with Richard Harris playing Marcus Aurelius and Juaqin Phoenix his treacherous, incompetent, corrupt son in the former version, and Obiwan Kenobi and the father from Sound of Music their counterparts. Come to think of it, the brutal and oppressive nature of the Roman Empire was also conveyed in Spartacus, as well as movies like Quo Vadis (one of the grand daddies of these massive Roman spectacles), with Peter Ustinov as Nero, and Ben Hur.

The article also mentioned when the nomadic Asiatic armies, the Mongol hordes and Huns swept through Northern Europe, and Visigoths were grudgingly allowed to cross the Danube, they were at times treated with extreme cruelty. In one example, a contemporary Roman historian claimed Romans at times forced the so called barbarians to to trade their children to slavery just for dog food. 
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The last paragraph lead to the battle of Adrianople, which was basically the end of the empire. It was just a matter of time at that point. 

BTW, the Mongol hordes were much later in history. It was just the Huns that lead to the great migration of Germanic tribes into the empire in the 4th century. 

 
Yeah there was a never ending stream of idiots and crooks running the place by that point. If there's one similarity between Rome then and the US now, it's the lack of competent leaders. 

 
-fish- said:
Yes, it's my fault you don't have a command of the language.   You continually spout your positions as if you're authoritative and intellectual, but you constantly expose yourself, which tells me that most likely you're just regurgitating poorly edited blog posts.  Blame others if you wish, or you could actually try to understand what the #### you're saying.   
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So you've read a lot of what I post and my affect/effect mistake is the only thing you've raised an issue with. That leaves me one step away from being perfect. Thanks!  :P

 
Politician Spock said:
So you've read a lot of what I post and my affect/effect mistake is the only thing you've raised an issue with. That leaves me one step away from being perfect. Thanks!  :P
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I generally don't bother.   You're a lot like Tim.  You love to post a lot and you don't source your information.  You argue with blog reposts and want people to think you're smart.

The lack of grammar, originality, or the ability to defend your positions betrays you.  I usually don't waste my time.

 
-fish- said:
I generally don't bother.   You're a lot like Tim.  You love to post a lot and you don't source your information.  You argue with blog reposts and want people to think you're smart.

The lack of grammar, originality, or the ability to defend your positions betrays you.  I usually don't waste my time.
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Sent you a pm. thread has been ruined enough. 

 
Bob Magaw said:
Gibbon (not the simian kind) addressed the former question by pounding out the monumental History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

* Contemporary doesn't necessarily connote the current administration. Republicans and Democrats both seem to be plagued by corruption, so as in Rome, some problems may be systemic (in other words, beyond the scope of and not amenable to glib, facile, simplistic partisan answers).

Also worth pointing out that while Rome proper fell considerably earlier, a former part of the Roman Empire, Constantinople, didn't fall for more than a millennium later. So, A) this type of historical analysis is complicated by the fact that there aren't neat demarcation lines that separate one era from another (like Medieval and "Modern"), and B) the "Fall of the Roman Empire" took hundreds of (or depending on how you define it, over a thousand) years - longer than the span of US history and sum total of its existence.
Click to expand...
There is an outstanding podcast on exactly this by Patrick Wyman who received his PhD in history focusing on it.  To your point Bob it's a massive topic to cover and consequently the podcasts are too.   16 parts and counting.....

If you're interested at all I'd suggest checking it out it's called "the fall of Rome".  

 
As one who posted ROME 1460 times at the moments when the Trump victory was called and he was inaugurated, the assumption of inevitable primacy is the connection i see most. The laxity & hubris of personal freedom is murdering citizenship and America is ROME without it.

 
Politician Spock said:
So you've read a lot of what I post and my affect/effect mistake is the only thing you've raised an issue with. That leaves me one step away from being perfect. Thanks!  :P
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Nobody cares, guys. Take it outside.

 
wikkidpissah said:
As one who posted ROME 1460 times at the moments when the Trump victory was called and he was inaugurated, the assumption of inevitable primacy is the connection i see most. The laxity & hubris of personal freedom is murdering citizenship and America is ROME without it.
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Ben Franklin said those who trade freedom for security deserve neither.

 
I had a concentration in archaeology in college... socio-politics aside, there is consistent and cross-cultural parallel between decline of civilaztions and decline of their arts/crafts/building abilities in the archaeological record. I have repeatedly cited reality TV and specifically the kardashian clan along with real housewives as the genesis of our demise. no schtick.

 
El Floppo said:
I had a concentration in archaeology in college... socio-politics aside, there is consistent and cross-cultural parallel between decline of civilaztions and decline of their arts/crafts/building abilities in the archaeological record. I have repeatedly cited reality TV and specifically the kardashian clan along with real housewives as the genesis of our demise. no schtick.
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I've previously heard of the breakdown of common civility, social niceties and morals as a kind of canary in the coal mine as far as looming collapse (if not imminent - again, these things took centuries in the case of Rome proper, and over a millennium if you count Constantinople).

End stage Rome probably wasn't very PC (and maybe thought Christians were snowflakes  :) ).

 
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