What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Is poverty a disease? (1 Viewer)

How the ever loving #### is lack of money a disease? We need to stop with the wars on abstract ideas and everything being a disease. I have a disease called Iaman#######itis. Someone please donate.

 
Poverty is the result of dozens of social pathologies, not the least of which is low expectations. Another problem is that it is expensive to be poor.

Almost anyone has the capability to improve his economic standing but the pathologies in their environment frequently overcome the ability. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This was a good article, thanks.  The author makes a lot of strong points and I hope all you "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" types will read it.  But I don't think a semantic debate over the word "disease" is especially important.

 
Losing is a disease... ...as contagious as bubonic plague... ... attacking one... ... but infecting all. Ah, but curable.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
This was a good article, thanks.  The author makes a lot of strong points and I hope all you "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" types will read it.  But I don't think a semantic debate over the word "disease" is especially important.
Click to expand...
even if you don't subscribe to pull yourself up by bootstraps,  there are some behaviors all of us could modify to improve our financial standing, even if you're "poor".   

 
I stopped reading when I realized it was 35 pages and the author doesn't feel financially secure pulling in 700K a year. 

 
RokNRole said:
http://m.nautil.us/issue/47/consciousness/why-poverty-is-like-a-disease

Is it a disease dooming the majority to be stuck in it for their entire lives or do people need to exercise personal responsibility and pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

Is it truly possible for everyone to overcome it if they want to?
Click to expand...
I came from projects to solid middle class.  I had a lot of help along the way (parents who cared, military, and a really good mentor) but it's possible.

 
When the author discussed his story he said he was "lucky" to get out of poverty and that without that luck he wouldn't have had the chance.  He also said that he was willing to do anything to get out of that lifestyle so he did something about it.  I agree there is some "luck" involved but he had a huge hand in making his "luck" happen.  He reached out.  He pursued avenues that helped get him out of the drug/poor situation he was in.    Those that don't have that drive to improve their situation will never get the "luck" needed to get out.  Complaining that it is unfair and only the "lucky" ones get our will never improve their situation. 

It takes a drive and willingness to work hard to make your "luck" happen.  Those that have it can succeed.  Those that don't won't. 

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
How the ever loving #### is lack of money a disease? We need to stop with the wars on abstract ideas and everything being a disease. I have a disease called Iaman#######itis. Someone please donate.
Click to expand...
I think they are comparing its effects to a disease because poverty driven stress rewires the brain.

Nobody is suggesting it's a disease in true medical terms.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
And I wouldn't call poverty a disease but it is definitely a cycle that is incredibly difficult to break out of, and increasingly difficult every year as we systematically dismantle the social safety.

 
I definitely acquired a position with my company due to luck.

But it's my hard work that led to a promotion and being with the company for almost 3 years.

 
Gally said:
When the author discussed his story he said he was "lucky" to get out of poverty and that without that luck he wouldn't have had the chance.  He also said that he was willing to do anything to get out of that lifestyle so he did something about it.  I agree there is some "luck" involved but he had a huge hand in making his "luck" happen.  He reached out.  He pursued avenues that helped get him out of the drug/poor situation he was in.    Those that don't have that drive to improve their situation will never get the "luck" needed to get out.  Complaining that it is unfair and only the "lucky" ones get our will never improve their situation. 

It takes a drive and willingness to work hard to make your "luck" happen.  Those that have it can succeed.  Those that don't won't. 
Click to expand...
If you don't start out in poverty, though, you can sometimes reach a similar level of success with a lot less drive, willingness to work hard, or luck.  One of the things mentioned in the article is about how one #### up can basically just ruin the life of a kid in poverty.  Middle class and rich kids can #### up plenty of times and still come out OK.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
If you don't start out in poverty, though, you can sometimes reach a similar level of success with a lot less drive, willingness to work hard, or luck.  One of the things mentioned in the article is about how one #### up can basically just ruin the life of a kid in poverty.  Middle class and rich kids can #### up plenty of times and still come out OK.
Click to expand...
That depends on what they ####ed up.

 
I re-read the article looking for holes in the theory.  I have a few thoughts.

Here is his central thesis: "We’ve learned that the stresses associated with poverty have the potential to change our biology in ways we hadn’t imagined. It can reduce the surface area of your brain, shorten your telomeres and lifespan, increase your chances of obesity, and make you more likely to take outsized risks."

I think, in general that the statement is correct. But do you think the stresses of poverty are greater now than they were in the past?  Do you think the stresses of being poor in 2017 are worse than they were in 1900?  Do we have to deal with the stresses of smallpox or unclean drinking water like we did in the past?  Is it really just as stressful now as in years past when a family living in a sod house on the prairie had to wonder if they would eat if a drought ruined their crops and cattle?  Or the stresses of living in a crime and disease infested tenement building in a New York City slum? 

How did so many people get out of poverty in days past and create the great middle class we have enjoyed in the post-war years if the stresses of poverty created conditions that made us less able to make good decisions?

Someone mentioned the social safety net.  There was no federal or even state social safety nets before the early part of the 20th century.  Stats.  Haven't we as a society made enormous strides in alleviating the stresses of poverty that he mentioned with our social programs?  Shouldn't the trillions in spending have reduced the stress and therefore reduced the inability to escape from it?   

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
If you don't start out in poverty, though, you can sometimes reach a similar level of success with a lot less drive, willingness to work hard, or luck.  One of the things mentioned in the article is about how one #### up can basically just ruin the life of a kid in poverty. 
Click to expand...
I grew up poorer than Guddu from the movie "Lion".  Blaming poverty for the lack of opportunity is lazy and dishonest.

Full disclosure, I'm good looking and white, which I do not discount as part of my journey.

 
worrierking said:
I re-read the article looking for holes in the theory.  I have a few thoughts.

Here is his central thesis: "We’ve learned that the stresses associated with poverty have the potential to change our biology in ways we hadn’t imagined. It can reduce the surface area of your brain, shorten your telomeres and lifespan, increase your chances of obesity, and make you more likely to take outsized risks."

I think, in general that the statement is correct. But do you think the stresses of poverty are greater now than they were in the past?  Do you think the stresses of being poor in 2017 are worse than they were in 1900?  Do we have to deal with the stresses of smallpox or unclean drinking water like we did in the past?  Is it really just as stressful now as in years past when a family living in a sod house on the prairie had to wonder if they would eat if a drought ruined their crops and cattle?  Or the stresses of living in a crime and disease infested tenement building in a New York City slum? 

How did so many people get out of poverty in days past and create the great middle class we have enjoyed in the post-war years if the stresses of poverty created conditions that made us less able to make good decisions?

Someone mentioned the social safety net.  There was no federal or even state social safety nets before the early part of the 20th century.  Stats.  Haven't we as a society made enormous strides in alleviating the stresses of poverty that he mentioned with our social programs?  Shouldn't the trillions in spending have reduced the stress and therefore reduced the inability to escape from it?   
Click to expand...
I'm not sure you should use "the stress of unclean drinking water" as an example when we just went through the whole Flint Michigan thing but point taken.

I don't know how to quantify whether being poor has become more or less stressful since many years ago.  A lot of poor kids today are growing up in homes with only one parent or no parents.  That seems like a change from the past that might add more stress.  Threats of violence seem more prominent.  I don't think it's an easy question to answer.

 
worrierking said:
How did so many people get out of poverty in days past and create the great middle class we have enjoyed in the post-war years if the stresses of poverty created conditions that made us less able to make good decisions?
Click to expand...
Many of the career opportunities available for the under-educated have evaporated over time.  Factory and unskilled labor jobs are not as plentiful as they were in the past, and those jobs that are available are fought over tooth and nail.

We have transitioned to a service based economy, and many people simply refuse to alter their attitude and embrace the new normal.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I'm not sure you should use "the stress of unclean drinking water" as an example when we just went through the whole Flint Michigan thing but point taken.

I don't know how to quantify whether being poor has become more or less stressful since many years ago.  A lot of poor kids today are growing up in homes with only one parent or no parents.  That seems like a change from the past that might add more stress.  Threats of violence seem more prominent.  I don't think it's an easy question to answer.
Click to expand...
I think what has happened is that the theory is only partially correct.  He identifies poverty as being the cause of the stress, but it's not poverty itself, but the social pathologies that create poverty (single-parent homes, addiction, abuse etc.) that also cause the stress.  He attributes the stress to the symptom, not the cause. 

How do so many Asian poor people come to the US and thrive?  Shouldn't coming from extreme poverty in Vietnam make you unable to make wise decisions, even in the United States? How do they do so well?  The answer is that they have intact, strongly-formed families that provide the emotional support, strong moral base, educational foundation and work ethic that allow them to do well.  Some or all of those important factors and potentially many others are missing in many poor families in our society.  That's why I believe that poverty is a result of social pathologies, not governmental policies.

I think the theory has merit and studying poverty in a science-based way is important to solving the problems.

 
wikkidpissah said:
Hopelessness, negligence are communicable, parent-to-child especially, and can certainly endemicize poverty
Click to expand...
Add duty, expecations, and knowing one's place to that. A lot of my wife's students are Latinas. She tells me she gets calls from parents all the time telling her to stop putting visions of college in their heads because they won't be able to find a husband.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Christo said:
Add duty and knowing one's place to that. A lot of my wife's students are Latinas. She tells me she gets calls from parents all the time telling her to stop putting visions of college in their heads because they won't be able to find a husband.
Click to expand...
That's social, though, just as cultivating dominance issues are in males and things like "apple syndrome" (red on the outside, white on the inside) which i encountered in my work with AmerIndians. Up to about five years of age, at least three, conditions like those i cited have an impact on whether a child thrives in many physiological ways.

 
Statorama said:
I grew up poorer than Guddu from the movie "Lion".  Blaming poverty for the lack of opportunity is lazy and dishonest.

Full disclosure, I'm good looking and white, which I do not discount as part of my journey.
Click to expand...
I've always felt like white men shouldn't be poor and/or struggling. 

When I see a homeless white man, I look at them and think "what a waste of white skin." 

 
I don't think that poverty is a disease, but there is a substantial correlation between financial success and intelligence.  There has been a lot of research into this over the past 15 years or so and while many don't like to admit it not all people are created equal with regards to intelligence.  Nurture does play a role but unless you are born with the inherent ability to be intelligent no amount of schooling or training is going to make you more intelligent.  This does not mean that your future is determined at birth, but many people are not starting life with the biological tools to succeed.  This was masked for most of our history as manual labor had value.  As the technology improves manual labor has less and less value.  

A study was done that measured the mean IQ of several different groups of society with the following results

Homeless -  Avg IQ ~80

Welfare recipients - Avg IQ 92

Median American - Avg IQ 100

Self Made Millionares - Avg IQ 118

Self Made Billionares - Avg IQ 133

source https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/02/11/the-incredible-correlation-between-iq-income/

Charles Murray has also written a couple books on this and the impact that it has on our society.  I highly recommend them as they are both very interesting.

The Bell Curve: Inteligence and class structure in America

Coming Apart

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Do you at least have a window office?
Click to expand...
I have a 3 room office all to myself with several windows, kitchenette and bathroom which includes a slop sink

 
Last edited by a moderator:
abbottjamesr said:
I don't think that poverty is a disease, but there is a substantial correlation between financial success and intelligence.  There has been a lot of research into this over the past 15 years or so and while many don't like to admit it not all people are created equal with regards to intelligence.  Nurture does play a role but unless you are born with the inherent ability to be intelligent no amount of schooling or training is going to make you more intelligent.  This does not mean that your future is determined at birth, but many people are not starting life with the biological tools to succeed.  This was masked for most of our history as manual labor had value.  As the technology improves manual labor has less and less value.  

A study was done that measured the mean IQ of several different groups of society with the following results

Homeless -  Avg IQ ~80

Welfare recipients - Avg IQ 92

Median American - Avg IQ 100

Self Made Millionares - Avg IQ 118

Self Made Billionares - Avg IQ 133

source https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/02/11/the-incredible-correlation-between-iq-income/

Charles Murray has also written a couple books on this and the impact that it has on our society.  I highly recommend them as they are both very interesting.

The Bell Curve: Inteligence and class structure in America

Coming Apart
Click to expand...
See we should take some of the IQ from those lucky high IQ people and share it.  It's only fair. 

 
MarvinTScamper said:
See we should take some of the IQ from those lucky high IQ people and share it.  It's only fair. 
Click to expand...
That's actually how I run my business right now.  Been blessed to do well and started out with nothing.  Just trying to give back the rest of the way.

 
Even if the govt mandated everyone earns 100k year, no exceptions, there would be some people that are busier than others.  Part of that is genetic, some learned.  There's no easy answer here

 
worrierking said:
I re-read the article looking for holes in the theory.  I have a few thoughts.

Here is his central thesis: "We’ve learned that the stresses associated with poverty have the potential to change our biology in ways we hadn’t imagined. It can reduce the surface area of your brain, shorten your telomeres and lifespan, increase your chances of obesity, and make you more likely to take outsized risks."

I think, in general that the statement is correct. But do you think the stresses of poverty are greater now than they were in the past?  Do you think the stresses of being poor in 2017 are worse than they were in 1900?  Do we have to deal with the stresses of smallpox or unclean drinking water like we did in the past?  Is it really just as stressful now as in years past when a family living in a sod house on the prairie had to wonder if they would eat if a drought ruined their crops and cattle?  Or the stresses of living in a crime and disease infested tenement building in a New York City slum? 

How did so many people get out of poverty in days past and create the great middle class we have enjoyed in the post-war years if the stresses of poverty created conditions that made us less able to make good decisions?

Someone mentioned the social safety net.  There was no federal or even state social safety nets before the early part of the 20th century.  Stats.  Haven't we as a society made enormous strides in alleviating the stresses of poverty that he mentioned with our social programs?  Shouldn't the trillions in spending have reduced the stress and therefore reduced the inability to escape from it?   
Click to expand...
I don't know about all the health issues as it seems intuitively obvious that less money = more health problems.

But I don't think anyone is saying it's as bad in 2017 as it was in 1900, as y'know the average life expectancy in 1900 was 47 for a white male (33 for an african american male), but that doesn't mean it's great now.

Yes there is a semblance of a social safety net but it has been systematically dismantled or access to it has been intentionally obfuscated since Reagan's famous 1976 almost entirely misrepresented "Welfare Queen" speech (but it was creative and it stuck), to make entry into the system both confusing and ultimately not really helpful for much more than temporarily staying afloat in many circumstances. It should provide the ability to get out of poverty entirely and stop using the system.

While circumstances are entirely different as we has far more capacity for new industrial manufacturing jobs in 1900 than in 2017, people rose out of poverty then the same way they do now with effort, advantages and luck (not necessarily in that order). Effort can only take you so far, if effort was all it took our poverty problem would be far less significant than it is today. Of course there are true examples of "by the bootstraps success" (incidentally that term originally was meant to reference something that was literally impossible) the vast majority benefit from far more support than they realize from good, stable families, access to better resources, and good old fashioned "right-place-right-time" or "it's not what you know, it's who you know" luck.

 
tommyboy said:
Even if the govt mandated everyone earns 100k year, no exceptions, there would be some people that are busier than others.  Part of that is genetic, some learned.  There's no easy answer here
Click to expand...
If everyone were making the same salary then everyone is effectively making $0

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

snellman
Collectively, A thread to celebrate our kids Non-Athletic accomplishments.
Replies
44
Views
913
snellman
snellman
DJackson10
Got hurt after I left work 3 weeks ago and my employer is giving me a hard time since the issue
2 3
Replies
101
Views
3K
DJackson10
DJackson10
GordonGekko
Is There A Widespread Growing Mental Health Crisis For Both Adult Men And Teenage Boys? (27/30)
2
Replies
52
Views
2K
Ilov80s
Ilov80s

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top