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Which franchises would you consider to be "untouchable"? (1 Viewer)

L

Loss By Design

Footballguy
Yes, I realize that every NFL franchise could be relocated to a new city under the right circumstances.  That said, some of the franchises certainly seem to be in more of a symbiotic relationship with their host city/state than others, and only on a cold day in hell would said franchises be relocated.  I'm not talking about moving to a new stadium one city/county over, but like the Raiders moving to Vegas, or the Rams moving (back) to LA.

To get things started, I have 3 groupings:

The Evergreens - It is more likely that I will voluntarily consume feces than these franchises are to relocate

  • Packers
  • Bears
  • Steelers
  • Cowboys
The Bubble - these seem like permanent fixtures today, but for some reason I could see them leaving (this is probably the most controversial bucket)

  • Ravens
  • Seahawks
  • 49ers
Keep Your Ticket Receipt - the owners are probably already eyeing real estate elsewhere (but haven't moved in the last 5 years)

  • Jaguars
  • Texans
Obviously, this list is not complete.  What teams do you think belong in these buckets?  

 
I can't imagine the Patriots or Chiefs moving.  Broncos seem really unlikely too. 

Eta - I'd put the new York football Giants,  the pats and the Chiefs among the evergreen. 

 
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I agree with Oz, there is no way Pats, Chiefs, or Broncos go anywhere.  Can't imagine what would cause the NYG to leave, they have a practically new stadium in the Meadowlands and that seems to always be the big driver for teams that leave...new stadium, new revenue, etc.  OP why do you see the Ravens as a possible mover?

I'd have to see a list of the lowest revenue-generating teams to really have an idea who moves...$$ is the big reason.  Anybody got a list, I'm too lazy to look it up.

 
Lets give the Jaguars are moving a rest already.  The owner isn't investing his own money into the community and its infrastructure with the idea of moving his football franchise anytime soon.

 
Khan owns Fulham, a fairly big time soccer team based in London. The Jags have been one of the teams to play in London and apparently they have explored building a training facility in London.

That doesn't = foolproof evidence, but Jacksonville has to be one of the least desirable markets in the NFL and if the league is hell bent on trying to break into foreign markets then I could see Jacksonville being the team to jump.

If I had to guess, Khan's whole plan was to buy the Jags, move them to London, and then profit from the new market/expanded fanbase/merchandising. I don't think he cares about Jacksonville at all.

However, the NFL doesn't travel well and is little more than a curiosity to foreign audiences. With the concussion issues surrounding the sport, I'm not sure it has a very bright future domestically or abroad. I don't see it ever taking off in Europe. Basketball is a much better investment if you have the money to buy an American sports franchise, as it's a much more intuitive game with greater demonstrated potential to become immensely popular elsewhere.

 
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cdwood said:
Lets give the Jaguars are moving a rest already.  The owner isn't investing his own money into the community and its infrastructure with the idea of moving his football franchise anytime soon.
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I'm not speculating who is moving.  I'm trying to identify the least inseparable city/team combinations, and the most separable combinations.  In my head, there is no Green Bay without the Packers, and vice versa.  The Jaguars, on the other hand, feel like they could exist just about anywhere and the universe wouldn't care.

 
-OZ- said:
I can't imagine the Patriots or Chiefs moving.  Broncos seem really unlikely too. 

Eta - I'd put the new York football Giants,  the pats and the Chiefs among the evergreen. 
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I can't explain why, but I don't get the unbreakable bond feeling between New England and the Patriots.  I could see that franchise existing in a different city after the Kraft-Belichick-Brady sheen has worn off.

 
Chapelboy said:
I agree with Oz, there is no way Pats, Chiefs, or Broncos go anywhere.  Can't imagine what would cause the NYG to leave, they have a practically new stadium in the Meadowlands and that seems to always be the big driver for teams that leave...new stadium, new revenue, etc.  OP why do you see the Ravens as a possible mover?

I'd have to see a list of the lowest revenue-generating teams to really have an idea who moves...$$ is the big reason.  Anybody got a list, I'm too lazy to look it up.
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I don't see them moving.  I just don't see them in the same strata of permanence as Green Bay and Pittsburg.

 
I think the easiest way to tell if a franchise is in danger of moving is to look at their stadium.  Teams with new stadiums that are considered quality venues don't move.  The oldest stadiums (in terms of either being built or not getting a massive renovation) are:

Titans 1999

Browns 1999

Bills 1973

Jaguars 1995

Panthers 1996

Saints 1966

Dolphins 1987

These are the 7 teams that arguably play in older, pre-internet, pre smartphone stadiums that have not had major renovations and could lack amenities and attractions and could be the eventual target of a move.  No matter what their current situation is, an attractive offer of a vastly improved venue could lure any of these teams away. 

Cities that could have a sudden change of heart and offer a brand new grass palace are:  San Diego, Oakland, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, San Antonio, Memphis, Portland, London

 
Riversco said:
I think the easiest way to tell if a franchise is in danger of moving is to look at their stadium.  Teams with new stadiums that are considered quality venues don't move.  The oldest stadiums (in terms of either being built or not getting a massive renovation) are:

Titans 1999

Browns 1999

Bills 1973

Jaguars 1995

Panthers 1996

Saints 1966

Dolphins 1987

These are the 7 teams that arguably play in older, pre-internet, pre smartphone stadiums that have not had major renovations and could lack amenities and attractions and could be the eventual target of a move.  No matter what their current situation is, an attractive offer of a vastly improved venue could lure any of these teams away. 

Cities that could have a sudden change of heart and offer a brand new grass palace are:  San Diego, Oakland, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, San Antonio, Memphis, Portland, London
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Doesnt kc and buffalo have the oldest stadiums in the league now?

 
As the only non-profit, publicly-owned professional team in the United States, the Packers are in their own tier. There's a better chance of Lake Michigan itself relocating to the moon than the Packers moving.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
Doesnt kc and buffalo have the oldest stadiums in the league now?
Click to expand...
KC did just a MASSIVE renovation on their park in 2010 similar to what Green Bay and Chicago did. They spent $375 million.  

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/9/13/1685792/kansas-city-chiefs-to-show-off-new

There is some speculation that the city of KC may want to start planning for a new stadium for both the Chiefs and Royals soon however.  

The Bills did a modest $130 million renovation in 2014 of their venue.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Stadium-renovations-unveiled-at-the-Ralph/3e0952e1-2d2e-4cca-b626-ebe15c52fc4a

 
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The Bills moving would crush this city. They are not moving. Pegula owns 3 of the 4 professional sports teams here (Bills, Sabres, Bandits (lacrosse)). I'm guessing the Bills move back into the city at some point. New Era Field (Rich stadium, The Ralph) is old. But the Bills sell out despite.... Bills tailgating is one of a kind. 

 
Every single franchise could move and every single franchise owner would move for the right price...or their idiot children would once the respected parent dies.  These lists are way too large up top - ego and money make a lot of 'never gonna happens' become fact.

 
Packers are publicly owned, as Onionsack pointed out. His point about Lake Michigan is right.

Dallas isn't moving out of that stadium, either. America's team. It would take or cause a civil war in Texas. That's not hyperbole (I don't think).

NYG are one of the oldest city/team combos with a new stadium. They're not leaving New Jersey unless New York City builds them one in Manhattan. No way. There's almost a better chance of said civil war than that.

Okay, that's hyperbole, but good hyperbole.

 
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Which franchises would you consider to be "untouchable"?
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Baltimore Colts played in and won the title in what was considered the 'greatest NFL game in history'.

The Cleveland Browns dominated post WWII era and had who was considered the 'greatest NFL player of all-time'.  

Don't kid yourself.

No NFL team is untouchable.

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2F68.media.tumblr.com%2Fbebb25429d632ae53b11e532ebb662be%2Ftumblr_mt50ihNrRy1qex0dmo5_250.gif&sp=a6a5b179a826126513a8d1fa411a2fe8

 
Riversco said:
Ford Field opened in 2002.  I think not quite close enough to put on the list.  Maybe in 5-10 years.  
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Sure, but that's hardly untouchable.  I don't think they move but it wouldn't be as shocking as the Giants, Packers, Cowboys, Chiefs, etc. 

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Why are the Chiefs rated so highly on this list?
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Strong fan base, good owner, tradition.  I'm possibly biased after living there 6 years but they're very much part of the culture of two states. That was during the gonzo years, so he might have helped but their tradition is strong. 

 
I'd put the Broncos, Chiefs and Giants on the first list. 

I'd put the Patriots, Seahawks and 49ers on the second list. 

 
When I read this I read it as the franchise leaving the area not just changing stadiums but being in the same general area

Colts going to Indy is an example of leaving the area, Giants moving to Manhattan is the franchise sticking in the same general area.

Evergreen

NYG, Philly, Dallas, Washington, NE, GB, Chicago, Pitt, Balt, Atlanta, SF, Seattle, Denver, KC,

Bubble

NYJ, Miami, Buffalo, Minne, Detroit, Cleve, Cincy, Indy, Tenn, Houston, NO, Carolina, Tampa, Arizona, Rams, Raiders, Chargers

Keep Your Receipt

Jax

 
Dope said:
When I read this I read it as the franchise leaving the area not just changing stadiums but being in the same general area

Colts going to Indy is an example of leaving the area, Giants moving to Manhattan is the franchise sticking in the same general area.
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I read it the same way. I was trying to say a lot of things in two sentences. 

They're New Jersey, which has a different culture than New York. They're not leaving New Jersey. If they left New Jersey for New York, you could argue it's the same move the 49ers made. Same metro area, slightly different vibe.  

It's still not happening. Fetch is never going to happen.  (Mean Girls quote).  

 
Dope said:
When I read this I read it as the franchise leaving the area not just changing stadiums but being in the same general area

Colts going to Indy is an example of leaving the area, Giants moving to Manhattan is the franchise sticking in the same general area.

Evergreen

NYG, Philly, Dallas, Washington, NE, GB, Chicago, Pitt, Balt, Atlanta, SF, Seattle, Denver, KC,

Bubble

NYJ, Miami, Buffalo, Minne, Detroit, Cleve, Cincy, Indy, Tenn, Houston, NO, Carolina, Tampa, Arizona, Rams, Raiders, Chargers

Keep Your Receipt

Jax
Click to expand...
While I can't disagree with your assessment and Jacksonville does seem like the most likely to move next (small market, limited tradition), consider the historical Baltimore Colts and Cleveland Brown franchises have encountered the circumstance to jump ship.  Meanwhile, the nomadic Rams and Raiders will continue to wander the desert for 40 years.

 
DropKick said:
While I can't disagree with your assessment and Jacksonville does seem like the most likely to move next (small market, limited tradition), consider the historical Baltimore Colts and Cleveland Brown franchises have encountered the circumstance to jump ship.  Meanwhile, the nomadic Rams and Raiders will continue to wander the desert for 40 years.
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The Rams case is interesting.  Attendance at Rams games in Anaheim was really low and owner Georgia Frontiere needed money.  She decided to sell a very large stake in the team to Stan Kroneke.  As part of the deal, Kroneke got to make the final call on either staying in LA or moving the St. Louis.  Kroneke chose to move it to St.. Louis because the revenue streams were better.  Eventually he took over control of the team, and then moved it back to LA, again because revenue streams were better.

 
Only one is packers due to ownership constraints.

all others, never say never, once a team sells to a different owner,  you just never know..

 
Loss By Design said:
I can't explain why, but I don't get the unbreakable bond feeling between New England and the Patriots.  I could see that franchise existing in a different city after the Kraft-Belichick-Brady sheen has worn off.
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I know before Kraft there was definite speculation the Pats would move.  But after almost 20 years of being a premier franchise all the kids in New England are growing up with Pats as #1 and everything else a distant second.  Even with other teams in the region winning.  I expect that has been cemented for that generation.  The Red Sox used to always be #1 before this run and that kept all the other teams as secondary even when the Celtics were winning in the 80s.  So I expect even with some futility it will take quite a while for the Pats to move away from #1 status.  My guess is no matter what happens the Pats will remain the top franchise for New Englanders for 15 or 20 years after the run ends.  That's assuming something doesn't kill the NFL before that.  And while the Pats run is probably close to ending.  If Belichick sticks around he might keep them relevant for another 5-10 years even without Brady.  Then again he might retire with Brady.

 
Loss By Design said:
Keep Your Ticket Receipt - the owners are probably already eyeing real estate elsewhere (but haven't moved in the last 5 years)

  • Jaguars
  • Texans
Obviously, this list is not complete.  What teams do you think belong in these buckets?  
Click to expand...
What is your reasoning that the Texans are looking to move?

 
As long as a Kraft walks this earth i doubt The Pats ever leave NE.

The incredible #### Rob Kraft did to buy and keep the Pats from becoming the St. Louis Stallions (sick uniforms btw) is amazing to this day.

 
Run It Up said:
The incredible #### Rob Kraft did to buy and keep the Pats from becoming the St. Louis Stallions (sick uniforms btw) is amazing to this day.
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I'm only 27 so even being from NE (though not a Pats fan) I haven't heard this story. Mind sharing? 

I do remember being a kid and there being speculation that the Pats new stadium would be in Hartford CT.

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
I'm only 27 so even being from NE (though not a Pats fan) I haven't heard this story. Mind sharing? 

I do remember being a kid and there being speculation that the Pats new stadium would be in Hartford CT.
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He was a season ticket holder and huge Pats fan, back in 85 Kraft bought an adjacent property to Foxboro (Was then used for parking, which I believe now is the Revolution stadium?), over the next few years he basically used the adjacent property to pressure the then owner of the Pats Billy Sullivan into bankruptcy after he suffered business failings. Kraft bought Foxboro from him out of Bankruptcy for $25 million, at this point Sullivan sold the Patriots to Victor Kiam in 1988 for $84 million. 

Kiam flipped the Pats to James Orthwein in 92, fully expecting him to uproot the team and move them to St. Louis and become the Stallions, Kraft however had been leasing Foxboro to the Patriots and refused a $75 million buyout of the lease (which ran through 2001). At this point Kraft owned basically all the revenue from Patriots games except for the ticket sales. Slowly choking the current owner out by refusing a buyout of the lease he then offered to outright buy the team for $175 million ($50mil more than the second closest offer), at the time it was a record and was considerably more than what the franchise was valued as. The team was not good, struggled to sell tickets. Most considered it a horrible deal for Kraft, but at this point, unable to move the team till 2001, Orthwein just gave up.

Good video summary 5m27s

 
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wow. I knew there was some shenanigans with going from kiam to kraft, but didnt know the details.

awesome...thanks!!!

 
Honestly that should make the Pats success much more palatable to the average Pats-hating NFL fan. Talk about a fanbase and owner who deserved some success. Great story, thanks for the info.

 
I love how people who couldn't find Jacksonville on a map have no idea about Khan's current involvement with the city.

Sigh.

 
Riversco said:
I think the easiest way to tell if a franchise is in danger of moving is to look at their stadium.  Teams with new stadiums that are considered quality venues don't move.  The oldest stadiums (in terms of either being built or not getting a massive renovation) are:

Titans 1999

Browns 1999

Bills 1973

Jaguars 1995

Panthers 1996

Saints 1966

Dolphins 1987

These are the 7 teams that arguably play in older, pre-internet, pre smartphone stadiums that have not had major renovations and could lack amenities and attractions and could be the eventual target of a move.  No matter what their current situation is, an attractive offer of a vastly improved venue could lure any of these teams away. 

Cities that could have a sudden change of heart and offer a brand new grass palace are:  San Diego, Oakland, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, San Antonio, Memphis, Portland, London
Click to expand...
The Dolphins are investing $400 million in stadium renovations.

 
After Art Modell moved the Browns from that diehard fanbase, I can see most anyone moving, including the Pats and Broncos. 

The only teams I sincerely can't see going anywhere are -

1. The Packers. Because of their unique community ownership. I know community shares aren't controlling shares, but I'd imagine it'd be extremely difficult to move the team. Wasn't this the reason they made that community-owned structure in the first place?

2. The Steelers. The Rooneys have been a powerhouse family in Pittsburgh since the late 19th century. As long as they own the Steelers, that team isn't going anywhere. The only way I could see a move is if the Rooneys suffered such a massive a financial crash that they had to sell the team. Then a move is possible. 

ETA: after reading Run It Up's post, I'll add the Pats as long as Kraft is alive. If he bequeaths the team to his family and they stay as invested, NE could turn into another Steelers-type situation.

 
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Had orthwein moved the pats to st louis, the 2002 realignment might look like this:

afc east: jets, bills, dolphins, jaguars

afc north: steelers, ravens, browns, bengals

afc south: colts, chiefs, stallions, titans

afc west: raiders, chargers, broncos, texans

 
Eagles aren't going anywhere. 

Started in 1933. Big sports town, and football is #1.

And they sell out even when they're terrible.

 
Riversco said:
Had orthwein moved the pats to st louis, the 2002 realignment might look like this:

afc east: jets, bills, dolphins, jaguars

afc north: steelers, ravens, browns, bengals

afc south: colts, chiefs, stallions, titans

afc west: raiders, chargers, broncos, texans
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why would the Chiefs go into the South and the Texans West?  Sure it could have happened but is there a reason to make it more likely?  

Jags in the south, ravens in the east, colts in the north starts to make more sense IMO, but this is a conversation for another time.

 
GregR said:
What is your reasoning that the Texans are looking to move?
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Would like to hear this reasoning too, because it's about as close to a non-zero chance in the near future as you can get except for the long time staples like the Packers, Cowboys, Steelers, etc. Maybe if McNair dies, but you could say that a lot of teams become a whole lot shakier on this topic if their owner dies.

 
I don't see the Redskins going anywhere. Even as much as I hate Snyder, I can't seem him moving them. He's been a fan of the team since childhood and the team has been in DC for 80+ years now.

 
-OZ- said:
why would the Chiefs go into the South and the Texans West?  Sure it could have happened but is there a reason to make it more likely?  

Jags in the south, ravens in the east, colts in the north starts to make more sense IMO, but this is a conversation for another time.
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proximity. KC is closer to the other South teams than Houston is. 

 
My list...

Never, Ever's
Green Bay
Chicago
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia 
Kansas City
Dallas

Never
New England
Seattle
49ers
NYG
Denver
Miami (If they moved they'd move within FL IMO)
NYJ
Washington

Pack Your Bags?
Jacksonville - I just see them being primed for London by the owner
Tennessee - The home town pride is just not there as it is in other cities. TEN is a college football state, I don't really see them embracing NFL. I loved the experience when I went there but I'd be surprised if they stayed there forever. 
Buffalo (sad because historically I'd like to put them in the Never Ever's, but if they can't get a stadium built they could move). I'd say they might be the most likely on this list to relocate. 
Carolina - I guess if anyone in that division would move it'd be them. Not sure I see it happening.
Detroit- maybe not within the next 2-3 years but we could be talking about them moving in 5-8 or so. 
Cleveland- moved once because they were awful. Same city, same problems. 
 

 
I saw the Seahawks' name come up a few times. Of course, anything is possible, but curious as to the reason why people think this franchise is one that could move.

In my time here over the last 10 years, I've come to appreciate that Seattle is a football town, through and through. Seahawks are seen as the first true pro franchise in Seattle, forming in 76 -- while the Mariners came just a year later, and while the Seattle Metropolitans won the Stanley cup in 1917 as part of the pre-NHL hockey days, I don't think anyone really remembers the Metropolitans here, and aside from 7 or so years in the late 90s/early 2000s when the Mariners were good, pretty much fair-weather baseball fans that get many more butts in seats when the Sox or the Jays come to town compared to Mariner fans.

The fanbase here was fine with letting the Sonics go (not that I blame them given the demands for public funds ot buy a new arena), an NHL franchise in the area keeps getting rumors but never true serious action, and, as mentioned, the Mariners aren't the main draw or passion.

So that leaves the NFL as the true die hard pro sport in the area, and would be hard to imagine the support for the team not being there, when they have been through some really dark, poor years to the last 5-10 years of excellence where their popularity has only grown.

Throw in a billionaire owner in Paul Allen, who also seems to covet the team and take an interest in keeping the team, a relatively new stadium that packs people in for all home games, and all together, would be really surprising if Seattle was ever in danger of leaving Seattle. 

 
Buckna said:
GregR said:
What is your reasoning that the Texans are looking to move?
Click to expand...
Would like to hear this reasoning too, because it's about as close to a non-zero chance in the near future as you can get except for the long time staples like the Packers, Cowboys, Steelers, etc. Maybe if McNair dies, but you could say that a lot of teams become a whole lot shakier on this topic if their owner dies.
Click to expand...
Yes, it makes little sense to me.  The franchise started out valued around #5 or so amongst NFL franchises. That doesn't happen with an expansion team because it is in an undesirable market.

15+ years later they are currently #9 in the Forbes list after a couple of the teams who just got new stadiums finally moved past them. They are #7 in revenue. They are in the #8 TV market. Despite a pair of 2-14 seasons and a decade to make the playoffs, they've sold out every single home game. Their stadium is still in the upper half of the league in terms of age, and top ten in seating capacity.

They got high marks for the hosting of the recent Super Bowl which was in large part due to the city's large investments since the previous decade's Super Bowl here (which had not gotten good reviews). The stadium has continued to see upgrades, including a new field and the biggest video screens in the NFL until Jackonsville topped them with their last upgrade.

I won't say they might not ever consider leaving. If there's a perfect storm of conditions like happened with Bud Adams sure, they could look to leave some day.

Saying they have been looking to leave already seems so off the wall it needs some explanation, @Loss By Design

 
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