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Battle of New Orleans: will there be bloodshed today? (1 Viewer)

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If history guides us, then if there is bloodshed it'll take place about 2 weeks after the statues are removed...

 
I don't mind leaving those statues in place, but I want new statues put up of Professor Longhair, Dr. John, and Randy Newman. 

 
Awesome. 

Of course, New Orleans didn't have to suffer the wrath of Sherman; it was occupied early in the war and thus saved from starvation and destruction. This fact has had a lasting effect on the psychology of this city. 
We surrendered. Otoh we also lay claim to one of the single greatest, most defiant military wins in US history. It's complicated.

 
The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there.  Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof?  Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next?  Will the Left look to remove statues?  Replace the $2 and $20 bills?  Change street names?  Mascot names?  Where does it end?

 
The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there.  Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof?  Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next?  Will the Left look to remove statues?  Replace the $2 and $20 bills?  Change street names?  Mascot names?  Where does it end?
I remember those discussions. We had them here, and I remember having a hard time intellectually defending the removal of those flags but not the removal of other monuments. I -- I asked about Jefferson. I remember. We were assured by the left that it wouldn't happen; that people would be reasonable and let it go. "Slippery slope fallacy," they claimed.  

Nope. Not a chance. This was going to happen -- is going to happen. Slavery is our national embarrassment, a compromise we made with the devil to get the Constitution ratified and thirteen states in the Union.

 
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The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there.  Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof?  Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next?  Will the Left look to remove statues?  Replace the $2 and $20 bills?  Change street names?  Mascot names?  Where does it end?
This was done to the St. Joan of Arc statue, and Andrew Jackson is also on the demand list. Actually there is a longer list, I think this is just some:

Street names

Palmer Avenue

Calhoun Street

General Taylor Street

Claiborne Avenue

Galvez Street

Jefferson Davis Parkway (Mayor Mitch Landrieu has also called for Jefferson Davis Parkway to be renamed after recently retired Xavier University president Norman Francis).

General Ogden Street

Ulloa Street 

Tulane Avenue 

Governor Nicholls Street

Poydras Street

Forshey Street

General Early Street

Robert E. Lee Boulevard


Beauregard Avenue

Walker Street

Mouton Street

Bragg Street 

Lane Street

Polk Avenue

Slidell Street

Lee Street 

Beauregard Drive 

General DeGaulle Drive

School names: 

Tulane University 

Henry W. Allen Elementary 

McDonogh 35 College Preparatory High School 

KIPP McDonogh 15 School for the Creative Arts 

ReNEW McDonogh City Park Academy

Lusher Charter School 

Lusher Charter Elementary School

Hospital names: 

Touro Infirmary 

Tulane Medical Center  

Monuments:

P.G.T. Bureaugard, at the City Park entrance near Esplanade Avenue.

Jefferson Davis at Canal Street and Jefferson Davis Parkway.

Rev. Abram Joseph Ryan at Jefferson Davis Parkway and Banks Street. 

Confederate Brig. Gen. Albert Pike monument at Tulane Avenue and Jefferson Davis Parkway.

Henry Clay at Lafayette Square.

World War 1 Memorial arch at 3800 Burgundy Street (Take 'Em Down NOLA cites the segregation of names of black soldiers from the names of white soldiers as a reason for wanting this monument's removal).

Andrew Jackson monument in Jackson Square.

Justice Edward Douglass White in the 400 block of Royal Street.

Bienville monument at Conti and Decatur and North Peters streets.

Battle of Liberty Place monument near the foot of Iberville Street.

John McDonogh statue at Lafayette Square.

Robert E. Lee at Lee Circle.

 
The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there.  Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof?  Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next?  Will the Left look to remove statues?  Replace the $2 and $20 bills?  Change street names?  Mascot names?  Where does it end?
It ends when something inappropriate is done.

Actually I don't agree at all with what they're doing today, but I really reject the slippery slope argument, as always. Each incident should be looked at by itself, not in terms of what worse might happen later. 

I always disliked that World War II poem "First They Came". It starts, I think, with "First they came for the Jews"- well that should have been the end of the ####### poem right there! Full stop. Why are we going on to line number two? 

 
It ends when something inappropriate is done.

Actually I don't agree at all with what they're doing today, but I really reject the slippery slope argument, as always. Each incident should be looked at by itself, not in terms of what worse might happen later. 

I always disliked that World War II poem "First They Came". It starts, I think, with "First they came for the Jews"- well that should have been the end of the ####### poem right there! Full stop. Why are we going on to line number two? 
I just don't think in our current political climate that the slippery slope exists. 

That is a funny, tragic comment about that poem, tim.  Full stop. But you know what they're saying. They're saying that a group traditionally dispossessed of rights and land should be defended, lest other categories and rights be denied.  

 
With regard to what's happening today, I believe that this is mainly the fault of racists who have attempted to use the memories of the Confederacy (particularly the battle flag) to propagate their disgusting beliefs. This has led to a reaction by well-meaning people to regard all reverence for the Comfederacy as racist. 

It's a bad reaction, though well-meaning. The Confederacy DID have heroes. Those heroes DO deserve to be revered. And even the scoundrels (on both sides) deserve to be remembered as well. Because this is one of the great things about us as a nation, the way we look at our history and our willing to self-criticize. These statues should NOT be removed. 

 
It ends when something inappropriate is done.

Actually I don't agree at all with what they're doing today, but I really reject the slippery slope argument, as always. Each incident should be looked at by itself, not in terms of what worse might happen later. 

I always disliked that World War II poem "First They Came". It starts, I think, with "First they came for the Jews"- well that should have been the end of the ####### poem right there! Full stop. Why are we going on to line number two? 
Slippery slopes are a reality Tim.  Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it.  Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope (goodness what an erotic sentence that was!).

The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history.  It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia.  I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.

 
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No, the group that is promoting this also feels that French and Spanish symbols like the fleur de lis are racist, even the icon on the Saints' logo and on the city flag.
Oh, colonialism and the like. Well, pure reason tells you the French and Spanish had colonies, and they generally weren't white.  

What symbols exactly are okay? Does a question like that betray that I'm old and afraid of change?  

 
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Slippery slopes are a reality Tim.  Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it.  Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope.

The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history.  It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia.  I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
Higgs was there, too in those debates. 

That's why I started the Why I Am A Conservative thread. Because pure reason leads to places like this. Hayek was wrong, Burke right.   

 
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I just don't think in our current political climate that the slippery slope exists. 

That is a funny, tragic comment about that poem, tim.  Full stop. But you know what they're saying. They're saying that a group traditionally dispossessed of rights and land should be defended, lest other categories and rights be denied.  
Was he saying that? 

The pastor who wrote that poem was a full blown Nazi until the Lutheran church got attacked. His message, it always seemed to me was, "Hwy don't let this happen to other people because it might happen to you." That always seemed rather cowardly to me. How about "Don't let this happen to other people because it's wrong and it shouldn't happen to other people"? What's wrong with that message? 

 
Was he saying that? 

The pastor who wrote that poem was a full blown Nazi until the Lutheran church got attacked. His message, it always seemed to me was, "Hwy don't let this happen to other people because it might happen to you." That always seemed rather cowardly to me. How about "Don't let this happen to other people because it's wrong and it shouldn't happen to other people"? What's wrong with that message? 
Nothing. I support that.  

 
Slippery slopes are a reality Tim.  Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it.  Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope (goodness what an erotic sentence that was!).

The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history.  It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia.  I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
I don't ever recall making a prediction on what would or would not happen. And I've been against this from the beginning. 

 
Ol' Landrieu said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't take the statues
'Til we waited for night skies

 
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The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history.  It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia.  I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
I agree to an extent but I would argue that the Right does this as well. I think it's unwise to allow ideology to rewrite history on either side, and we always need to be careful about that. 

 
Not literarily or even metaphorically. 

Instead of starting with religion -- or race, if you want to look at it that way -- it starts with the purely political. 
What I meant is that it was wrong to come for the Communists. Full stop. Poem can end there. 

 
As an aside, rockaction, it would be incorrect to regard Communists in Europe during the 1920s and 30s, especially in Germany, as "purely political". They were very much a community of people, including kids whose parents were Commies, with organizations, picnics, communal events, sporting events, etc. Like a fraternal club. Minor point, but...

 
With regard to what's happening today, I believe that this is mainly the fault of racists who have attempted to use the memories of the Confederacy (particularly the battle flag) to propagate their disgusting beliefs. This has led to a reaction by well-meaning people to regard all reverence for the Comfederacy as racist. 

It's a bad reaction, though well-meaning. The Confederacy DID have heroes. Those heroes DO deserve to be revered. And even the scoundrels (on both sides) deserve to be remembered as well. Because this is one of the great things about us as a nation, the way we look at our history and our willing to self-criticize. These statues should NOT be removed. 
No.  People can take responsibility for their own actions (and overreactions).

 
As an aside, rockaction, it would be incorrect to regard Communists in Europe during the 1920s and 30s, especially in Germany, as "purely political". They were very much a community of people, including kids whose parents were Commies, with organizations, picnics, communal events, sporting events, etc. Like a fraternal club. Minor point, but...
But fair.  

I would say, though, that those communities were largely based on political ideology and societal upheaval and revolution.  

 
Higgs was there, too in those debates. 

That's why I started the Why I Am A Conservative thread. Because pure reason leads to places like this. Hayek was wrong, Burke right.   
Yes I was.  And I was strongly in favor of taking down the flag, even if it meant trekking down a slippery slope.  But where does it become unreasonable?

It's a fascinating debate.  I'm always intrigued with history and the importance  of symbols (like statues and flags) in human culture.  I honestly don't know where a line should be drawn here.  Maybe where it becomes apparent that it's being done more for power than a sincere wish to remove something that is really causing harm?

 
Yes I was.  And I was strongly in favor of taking down the flag, even if it meant trekking down a slippery slope.  But where does it become unreasonable?

It's a fascinating debate.  I'm always intrigued with history and the importance  of symbols (like statues and flags) in human culture.  I honestly don't know where a line should be drawn here.  Maybe where it becomes apparent that it's being done more for power than a sincere wish to remove something that is really causing harm?
I never had a good answer in those debates. I sort of knew this would happen once that did, though, and was wondering where it would end. 

It seems like tim is arguing what you're arguing -- that if it's used for power, then you can expect the reaction we're seeing. 

I personally don't know, which is a cop out. I wouldn't really want those flags over my state capitol building. That's why I love Anthony Hecht's lines about human nature and politics: If there is order in all that anarchy...It takes a finer mind that mine to see it. 

 
And I'm sorry it's happening in SID's NO. We're debating it in the abstract, and he has to live it.  

Sorry, man.  

 
And I'm sorry it's happening in SID's NO. We're debating it in the abstract, and he has to live it.  

Sorry, man.  
Are you kidding? 

Guy has got the best music and food in this country on a daily basis. What more could somebody want? I can't wait to visit. 

He does have to deal with a bad football team that's getting worse though...

 
As long as it ends there (removal of Confederate statues).  Where it really gets ridiculous is when the Left starts going after the founding fathers.  That's when you start cutting into the bone.

 
Are you kidding? 

Guy has got the best music and food in this country on a daily basis. What more could somebody want? I can't wait to visit. 

He does have to deal with a bad football team that's getting worse though...
Fair. I'm a little distracted right now, too. But if you love history and your city, you hate to see something like this happen. 

If you love public spaces and the statues and your culture -- which is distinct -- then it's tough to watch vandals take down that which are used to seeing.  A beignet probably doesn't cut it that day. 

 

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