Awesome.
We surrendered. Otoh we also lay claim to one of the single greatest, most defiant military wins in US history. It's complicated.Awesome.
Of course, New Orleans didn't have to suffer the wrath of Sherman; it was occupied early in the war and thus saved from starvation and destruction. This fact has had a lasting effect on the psychology of this city.
I remember those discussions. We had them here, and I remember having a hard time intellectually defending the removal of those flags but not the removal of other monuments. I -- I asked about Jefferson. I remember. We were assured by the left that it wouldn't happen; that people would be reasonable and let it go. "Slippery slope fallacy," they claimed.The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there. Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof? Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next? Will the Left look to remove statues? Replace the $2 and $20 bills? Change street names? Mascot names? Where does it end?
This was done to the St. Joan of Arc statue, and Andrew Jackson is also on the demand list. Actually there is a longer list, I think this is just some:The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there. Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof? Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next? Will the Left look to remove statues? Replace the $2 and $20 bills? Change street names? Mascot names? Where does it end?
Street names
Palmer Avenue
Calhoun Street
General Taylor Street
Claiborne Avenue
Galvez Street
Jefferson Davis Parkway (Mayor Mitch Landrieu has also called for Jefferson Davis Parkway to be renamed after recently retired Xavier University president Norman Francis).
General Ogden Street
Ulloa Street
Tulane Avenue
Governor Nicholls Street
Poydras Street
Forshey Street
General Early Street
Robert E. Lee Boulevard
Beauregard Avenue
Walker Street
Mouton Street
Bragg Street
Lane Street
Polk Avenue
Slidell Street
Lee Street
Beauregard Drive
General DeGaulle Drive
School names:
Tulane University
Henry W. Allen Elementary
McDonogh 35 College Preparatory High School
KIPP McDonogh 15 School for the Creative Arts
ReNEW McDonogh City Park Academy
Lusher Charter School
Lusher Charter Elementary School
Hospital names:
Touro Infirmary
Tulane Medical Center
Monuments:
P.G.T. Bureaugard, at the City Park entrance near Esplanade Avenue.
Jefferson Davis at Canal Street and Jefferson Davis Parkway.
Rev. Abram Joseph Ryan at Jefferson Davis Parkway and Banks Street.
Confederate Brig. Gen. Albert Pike monument at Tulane Avenue and Jefferson Davis Parkway.
Henry Clay at Lafayette Square.
World War 1 Memorial arch at 3800 Burgundy Street (Take 'Em Down NOLA cites the segregation of names of black soldiers from the names of white soldiers as a reason for wanting this monument's removal).
Andrew Jackson monument in Jackson Square.
Justice Edward Douglass White in the 400 block of Royal Street.
Bienville monument at Conti and Decatur and North Peters streets.
Battle of Liberty Place monument near the foot of Iberville Street.
John McDonogh statue at Lafayette Square.
Robert E. Lee at Lee Circle.
It ends when something inappropriate is done.The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there. Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof? Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next? Will the Left look to remove statues? Replace the $2 and $20 bills? Change street names? Mascot names? Where does it end?
I just don't think in our current political climate that the slippery slope exists.It ends when something inappropriate is done.
Actually I don't agree at all with what they're doing today, but I really reject the slippery slope argument, as always. Each incident should be looked at by itself, not in terms of what worse might happen later.
I always disliked that World War II poem "First They Came". It starts, I think, with "First they came for the Jews"- well that should have been the end of the ####### poem right there! Full stop. Why are we going on to line number two?
Well, then you know there's one idiot in the crowd. You can certainly conclude that.This was done to the St. Joan of Arc statue, and Andrew Jackson is also on the demand list. Actually there is a longer list, I think this is just some:
No, the group that is promoting this also feels that French and Spanish symbols like the fleur de lis are racist, even the icon on the Saints' logo and on the city flag.Well, then you know there's one idiot in the crowd. You can certainly conclude that.
Slippery slopes are a reality Tim. Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it. Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope (goodness what an erotic sentence that was!).It ends when something inappropriate is done.
Actually I don't agree at all with what they're doing today, but I really reject the slippery slope argument, as always. Each incident should be looked at by itself, not in terms of what worse might happen later.
I always disliked that World War II poem "First They Came". It starts, I think, with "First they came for the Jews"- well that should have been the end of the ####### poem right there! Full stop. Why are we going on to line number two?
Oh, colonialism and the like. Well, pure reason tells you the French and Spanish had colonies, and they generally weren't white.No, the group that is promoting this also feels that French and Spanish symbols like the fleur de lis are racist, even the icon on the Saints' logo and on the city flag.
Higgs was there, too in those debates.Slippery slopes are a reality Tim. Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it. Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope.
The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history. It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia. I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
Was he saying that?I just don't think in our current political climate that the slippery slope exists.
That is a funny, tragic comment about that poem, tim. Full stop. But you know what they're saying. They're saying that a group traditionally dispossessed of rights and land should be defended, lest other categories and rights be denied.
I was going to ask, but generally tim is on top of that and I hate to correct him because then I'm usually wrong.Communists was first in poem. Not the Jew's.
Socialists was second
Thanks. Same thing though.Communists was first in poem. Not the Jew's.
Socialists was second
Nothing. I support that.Was he saying that?
The pastor who wrote that poem was a full blown Nazi until the Lutheran church got attacked. His message, it always seemed to me was, "Hwy don't let this happen to other people because it might happen to you." That always seemed rather cowardly to me. How about "Don't let this happen to other people because it's wrong and it shouldn't happen to other people"? What's wrong with that message?
I don't ever recall making a prediction on what would or would not happen. And I've been against this from the beginning.Slippery slopes are a reality Tim. Rockaction is right - he and others in here warned about it. Tobias, you and others said it wouldn't happen, and quicker than a bride's nightie coming off on her wedding night we saw immediate slipping and sliding down the slope (goodness what an erotic sentence that was!).
The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history. It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia. I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
Not literarily or even metaphorically.Thanks. Same thing though.
My apologies then. The memory ain't what it used to be.I don't ever recall making a prediction on what would or would not happen. And I've been against this from the beginning.
I agree to an extent but I would argue that the Right does this as well. I think it's unwise to allow ideology to rewrite history on either side, and we always need to be careful about that.The Left has a long history of wanting to manipulate language and history. It's a natural outgrowth of their dominance in academia. I think you have a big blind spot to this reality.
What I meant is that it was wrong to come for the Communists. Full stop. Poem can end there.Not literarily or even metaphorically.
Instead of starting with religion -- or race, if you want to look at it that way -- it starts with the purely political.
Unless you viewed it as self-defense.What I meant is that it was wrong to come for the Communists. Full stop. Poem can end there.
No. People can take responsibility for their own actions (and overreactions).With regard to what's happening today, I believe that this is mainly the fault of racists who have attempted to use the memories of the Confederacy (particularly the battle flag) to propagate their disgusting beliefs. This has led to a reaction by well-meaning people to regard all reverence for the Comfederacy as racist.
It's a bad reaction, though well-meaning. The Confederacy DID have heroes. Those heroes DO deserve to be revered. And even the scoundrels (on both sides) deserve to be remembered as well. Because this is one of the great things about us as a nation, the way we look at our history and our willing to self-criticize. These statues should NOT be removed.
But fair.As an aside, rockaction, it would be incorrect to regard Communists in Europe during the 1920s and 30s, especially in Germany, as "purely political". They were very much a community of people, including kids whose parents were Commies, with organizations, picnics, communal events, sporting events, etc. Like a fraternal club. Minor point, but...
Yes I was. And I was strongly in favor of taking down the flag, even if it meant trekking down a slippery slope. But where does it become unreasonable?Higgs was there, too in those debates.
That's why I started the Why I Am A Conservative thread. Because pure reason leads to places like this. Hayek was wrong, Burke right.
I never had a good answer in those debates. I sort of knew this would happen once that did, though, and was wondering where it would end.Yes I was. And I was strongly in favor of taking down the flag, even if it meant trekking down a slippery slope. But where does it become unreasonable?
It's a fascinating debate. I'm always intrigued with history and the importance of symbols (like statues and flags) in human culture. I honestly don't know where a line should be drawn here. Maybe where it becomes apparent that it's being done more for power than a sincere wish to remove something that is really causing harm?
Are you kidding?And I'm sorry it's happening in SID's NO. We're debating it in the abstract, and he has to live it.
Sorry, man.
You know, a lot of people don't ask the question "Did the Battle of New Orleans have to happen?" People never think about that.Andrew Jackson's best moment.
Fair. I'm a little distracted right now, too. But if you love history and your city, you hate to see something like this happen.Are you kidding?
Guy has got the best music and food in this country on a daily basis. What more could somebody want? I can't wait to visit.
He does have to deal with a bad football team that's getting worse though...