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How can you trade with owners with unreasonable player value impressions? (1 Viewer)

I

Ironman2131

Footballguy
I'm just curious how other people would approach this situation.  It's a specific, but for this purpose consider it to be referencing any other owner who seems confused about player value.

I'm in a contract-based dynasty league where I have very good starters but am lacking depth.  I was in the market for a backup QB and reached out to a few teams, once of which has Winston (2 year contract), Rivers (1), and Flacco (3).  I have Luck and his bye week lines up with Winston, so I asked about Flacco or Rivers.  To facilitate this deal, I would be willing to trade some combination of WRs (my starters are Brown, Evans, and Jordy, so DeVante Parker, Garcon, and Treadwell are the key pieces of any deal) and maybe a draft pick.  However, no specifics were discussed.

He responded that he didn't like any of the WRs I had mentioned (keep in mind, if the season started now he would probably start Cobb, Travis Benjamin, and maybe Will Fuller), but he would trade Rivers or Flacco for Evans.  His rationale that this was a fair deal was that all three guys are "startable".  Obviously I wasn't going to do a trade like that.  After some back-and-forth, he admitted that maybe Evans was too much, but that he feels Flacco has value comparable to Hilton because there are fewer starting QBs than starting WRs.

Anyway, it doesn't look like anything is going to get done, and I responded with a simple explanation of VBD (just explaining that our league starts 36 WRs and only 12 QBs, so top RBs/WRs are more valuable than guys like Flacco), but I was curious how other people act.  It's a friendly league, and I would rather the other owners continue to improve to increase competition, but I also see the point of keeping in mind his preference for QBs and using it down the road to try and trade him a marginal QB for a real asset.

And if you need/want more details about the specifics of the league, I'm happy to provide them.  Although this is meant more as a general example than anything specific.

 
I just don't send this owner offers anymore unless they specifically line up with his reasoning and let you take advantage of it.

 
I'm sure he'd value your QB a whole lot less. I don't mind differing values but guys who always value their guys higher than the norm and your guys lower are annoying

 
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I just ask them if they would really consider that offer if I offered it to him.  Then whatever his reply is I ignore as I am done with that conversation.  He can come back with a real offer if he's interested.

 
Good replies. There is a reality too that some owners just aren't good candidates for trades. It sucks but that's reality. The biggest thing I see helping is to keep it purely "business". Don't let it get personal.

J

 
Been playing FF and FBB for over 20 years.  One thing that remains constant is that owners will always over value their own players.

Then there is this fear that they are getting fleeced no matter what the offer is.  One guy in our league would be both of these things.  One time as a joke I called him on the phone and offered him Peyton Manning in his prime when he was throwing 40-50 TDs a year and was my top pick for a journeyman RB..he said "I am going to have to think about it awhile"    The guy was rotating between Jason Campbell and David Garrard at the time and he just could not say yes..

I was never going to make the trade but just offered it to see his reaction.

 
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I needed a dynasty QB. An owner that has lately been in the bottom third of the league has Luck, Rodgers and Ben. I tried for months and he wouldn't budge on moving any of them. It gets to a point where it isn't worth your time. 

 
Ironman2131 said:
I'm just curious how other people would approach this situation.  It's a specific, but for this purpose consider it to be referencing any other owner who seems confused about player value.

I'm in a contract-based dynasty league where I have very good starters but am lacking depth.  I was in the market for a backup QB and reached out to a few teams, once of which has Winston (2 year contract), Rivers (1), and Flacco (3).  I have Luck and his bye week lines up with Winston, so I asked about Flacco or Rivers.  To facilitate this deal, I would be willing to trade some combination of WRs (my starters are Brown, Evans, and Jordy, so DeVante Parker, Garcon, and Treadwell are the key pieces of any deal) and maybe a draft pick.  However, no specifics were discussed.

He responded that he didn't like any of the WRs I had mentioned (keep in mind, if the season started now he would probably start Cobb, Travis Benjamin, and maybe Will Fuller), but he would trade Rivers or Flacco for Evans.  His rationale that this was a fair deal was that all three guys are "startable".  Obviously I wasn't going to do a trade like that.  After some back-and-forth, he admitted that maybe Evans was too much, but that he feels Flacco has value comparable to Hilton because there are fewer starting QBs than starting WRs.

Anyway, it doesn't look like anything is going to get done, and I responded with a simple explanation of VBD (just explaining that our league starts 36 WRs and only 12 QBs, so top RBs/WRs are more valuable than guys like Flacco), but I was curious how other people act.  It's a friendly league, and I would rather the other owners continue to improve to increase competition, but I also see the point of keeping in mind his preference for QBs and using it down the road to try and trade him a marginal QB for a real asset.

And if you need/want more details about the specifics of the league, I'm happy to provide them.  Although this is meant more as a general example than anything specific.
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The bolded is all you should really come out of this with. He's obviously not a good candidate for this deal so its time to move on to a different owner.

Some people just have crazy ideas of an assets worth. Which is fine. its actually one of the reasons I love FF, each league is like its own little free market micro economy. The people who thrive in these environments are the ones who adjust best to the market and take advantage of it when they see an opportunity. Trying to change someones idea of their valuation of an asset is usually pretty hard, and usually a self defeating thing. It just never comes off well in a conversation. Showing interest in an asset and in the same conversation trying to sell the other owner on why he isnt really that valuable, but you still want him. Just easier to let them over value imo

 
In my league there's a guy who views all of his players as amazing, and all other players as overrated.  A couple years ago I offered 2 top 15 RBs for a top 5 TE.  I understand if you don't want to trade, but his response was "I don't want guys you're just going to cut."  This is a dynasty league with deep benches... pretty much no one gets cut.

Over the years people have offered tons for his players or picks, but he never trades.  He won the league the first year, with Peyton, Jordy, Jamaal Charles and TY Hilton. Since then he's been bottom 3 every year.  The moral is, don't be that guy who doesn't trade.

 
One other basic rule is understanding if you're in this for the long haul, trades have to be fair. Win - Win isn't a catchphrase. If you plan on being around for a while, a lopsided trade is poison. Nobody likes to feel dumb if they're taken advantage of. The guy that is just looking to embarrass people by stealing players is the guy that won't have anyone to trade with.

J

 
Pwingles said:
or pass. or take it. def dont post about it publically tho
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Over your head but no need to dig up an old thread about an obnoxious trader I guess


If a guy over-values his players then you move on. In my league it can be quite boring because literally maybe 2-3 (including myself) of 12 guys are open to trades. Everyone else is just looking for the lopsided trade in their favor. It's frustrating but it puts more emphasis on WW pick ups, which is where I flourish. So it works to my advantage. I've offered a lot of very fair trades and only had 3 accepted ever in the 5 seasons this particular league. What's really frustrating is when the owners that are very vocal and open to discussing trade options just aren't a good match for me for making a trade (they want a WR, but I am thin at WR sort of deal... or I have a great backup QB and their QB is just fine). 

 
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Dr. Dan said:
Over your head but no need to dig up an old thread about an obnoxious trader I guess


If a guy over-values his players then you move on. In my league it can be quite boring because literally maybe 2-3 (including myself) of 12 guys are open to trades. Everyone else is just looking for the lopsided trade in their favor. It's frustrating but it puts more emphasis on WW pick ups, which is where I flourish. So it works to my advantage. I've offered a lot of very fair trades and only had 3 accepted ever in the 5 seasons this particular league. What's really frustrating is when the owners that are very vocal and open to discussing trade options just aren't a good match for me for making a trade (they want a WR, but I am thin at WR sort of deal... or I have a great backup QB and their QB is just fine). 
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ha, not over my head, i was referencing a post of his from said topic

 
Pwingles said:
ha, not over my head, i was referencing a post of his from said topic
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The point of referencing the thread was the fact that he proposed garbage for robinson. similar to this thread where you have someone who over or under values particular players. But whatever. Guess you had to be there. 

 
That's fantasy football. I've changed tactics the last few years and traded a lot, 30 + trades last year and 40 + this year (8 of 10 leagues). I use a few methods to determine value including how much I'm willing to overpay. Some owners want to consistently pay only 30 cents on a dollar of the trade value. Others, are very reasonable. I keep track of both types of owners.  The 30 cents on a dollar types, I ignore.

 
Around this time last year my league-mates were complaining that I wasn't considering "fair" trades for David Johnson.

 
I'd rather someone make an official offer and then I can counter or decline. The discussion can take place now that I know what you want and what you're thinking. I'm not a fan of vague inquiries. If you want a player make me an offer and we can go from there. But that's just me. ?

 
 You need to change your paradigm here.  Any time you fail to make a deal, you failed. They didn't.  He is who he is,  and it's not your job top change that.  You're competing against these guys and part of that is learning who they are. Some guys have wild valuations on players. That doesn't mean you should buy the guy they overvalue.   Talk to him, find out who he really likes including guys on other teams.  Talk to the owners from other teams and see if you can buy his guy for two dollars and sell him for five. Maybe the guy with Sterling Shepard would trade him for Treadwell and Parker,  and this kid loves Shepard. 

Speaking of which, in a contract league, I wouldn't give anything of value for Parker,  Treadwell or Garcon, either.   They're not totally worthless but they're late round redraft picks. They're decent dynasty flyers but in contract leagues you don't get to keep them when they pan out.  

Obviously flacco for Evans or Hilton straight up is silly, but you're on opposite sides of a chasm here.

Plus you have luck,  brown,  Evans and jordy.  Not sure what your other guys look like,  but when you have a loaded roster and a glaring flaw like needing a bye week qb, you're not going to get any sweetheart deals.

So my advice would be talk to the guy.  You know,  like friends. Have fun talking about your mutual hobby and maybe it works out.  And reach out elsewhere for cheap deals now while you can.  Otherwise just wait for august.  If there's buzz around any off your guys you'll be able to buy a cheap qb easily. If not, watch the waiver wire,  and keep checking around for bargains.  It's May. Not even mid May. There's time. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
he's @Mavis now
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Is this a thing? Im sure they can IP check it or something to ease your mind. What do I win If I'm not Hoffman, will you never post here again? Sounds good to me. Joe, can you check that for us? Does seem pretty random for you to mention me in your random discussion, is there an obsession and a page stalking I should know about?  :P

 
Just hit reject and don't bother wasting time teaching them or trying to get them to stop. Unless you see them make some fair deals with others, or they send you a good offer you just can't deal with them. They are looking to rip people off and that's the only reason they send trades.

 
Joe Bryant said:
One other basic rule is understanding if you're in this for the long haul, trades have to be fair. Win - Win isn't a catchphrase. If you plan on being around for a while, a lopsided trade is poison. Nobody likes to feel dumb if they're taken advantage of. The guy that is just looking to embarrass people by stealing players is the guy that won't have anyone to trade with.

J
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Agreed. We have a guy that was taken in a trade and now, he rejects everything. I have Freeman, he has Coleman. After unsuccessfully prying Coleman from him, I asked what he would give for Freeman. He's not interested in making any moves at this time. "At this time" has been about three years. 

 
I know this is kinda redraft related, but I always hate the owners who won't trade with you because you're giving them players on your bench for one of their starters. Just because someone is on my bench, doesn't mean they won't help your team and/or better than your current starters.

 
Mavis said:
Is this a thing? Im sure they can IP check it or something to ease your mind. What do I win If I'm not Hoffman, will you never post here again? Sounds good to me. Joe, can you check that for us? Does seem pretty random for you to mention me in your random discussion, is there an obsession and a page stalking I should know about?  :P
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somebody else mentioned you, well the former you.

 
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MattFancy said:
I know this is kinda redraft related, but I always hate the owners who won't trade with you because you're giving them players on your bench for one of their starters. Just because someone is on my bench, doesn't mean they won't help your team and/or better than your current starters.
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Those are not smart or good owners. 

 
Ironman2131 said:
I'm just curious how other people would approach this situation.  It's a specific, but for this purpose consider it to be referencing any other owner who seems confused about player value.

I'm in a contract-based dynasty league where I have very good starters but am lacking depth.  I was in the market for a backup QB and reached out to a few teams, once of which has Winston (2 year contract), Rivers (1), and Flacco (3).  I have Luck and his bye week lines up with Winston, so I asked about Flacco or Rivers.  To facilitate this deal, I would be willing to trade some combination of WRs (my starters are Brown, Evans, and Jordy, so DeVante Parker, Garcon, and Treadwell are the key pieces of any deal) and maybe a draft pick.  However, no specifics were discussed.

He responded that he didn't like any of the WRs I had mentioned (keep in mind, if the season started now he would probably start Cobb, Travis Benjamin, and maybe Will Fuller), but he would trade Rivers or Flacco for Evans.  His rationale that this was a fair deal was that all three guys are "startable".  Obviously I wasn't going to do a trade like that.  After some back-and-forth, he admitted that maybe Evans was too much, but that he feels Flacco has value comparable to Hilton because there are fewer starting QBs than starting WRs.

Anyway, it doesn't look like anything is going to get done, and I responded with a simple explanation of VBD (just explaining that our league starts 36 WRs and only 12 QBs, so top RBs/WRs are more valuable than guys like Flacco), but I was curious how other people act.  It's a friendly league, and I would rather the other owners continue to improve to increase competition, but I also see the point of keeping in mind his preference for QBs and using it down the road to try and trade him a marginal QB for a real asset.

And if you need/want more details about the specifics of the league, I'm happy to provide them.  Although this is meant more as a general example than anything specific.
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I think this is the part you need to key on.  Sometimes there just isn't a good match to make a deal because the players you are willing to part with aren't players the other guy wants at all.  Even though those guys would be an improvement on his WR corps they are players he doesn't like so he isn't going to trade for them. 

It is really hard to discuss a deal when the other side doesn't have any constructive dialogue to help see what he wants or what he perceives he needs.  Rather than offer up specific players maybe ask first where he perceives his weakness to be and if there is anyone off your roster that he would be interested in to fill that hole.  Then you at least have a starting point.

I also have a few owners that I will never inquire about a specific player because the moment I do that player instantly becomes a top 5 scorer in the league.  So I find out what players aren't in his plans and then go back to the strategy of asking him if he has interest in any of my players.

Dialogue is key in any negotiation.  Then you must have the ability to realize when there just isn't a deal to be made. 

 
Gally said:
I think this is the part you need to key on.  Sometimes there just isn't a good match to make a deal because the players you are willing to part with aren't players the other guy wants at all.  Even though those guys would be an improvement on his WR corps they are players he doesn't like so he isn't going to trade for them. 

It is really hard to discuss a deal when the other side doesn't have any constructive dialogue to help see what he wants or what he perceives he needs.  Rather than offer up specific players maybe ask first where he perceives his weakness to be and if there is anyone off your roster that he would be interested in to fill that hole.  Then you at least have a starting point.

I also have a few owners that I will never inquire about a specific player because the moment I do that player instantly becomes a top 5 scorer in the league.  So I find out what players aren't in his plans and then go back to the strategy of asking him if he has interest in any of my players.

Dialogue is key in any negotiation.  Then you must have the ability to realize when there just isn't a deal to be made. 
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More and more leagues are played with anonymity and less familiarity than in the past.  Back in the early days, you knew your leaguemates more personally and likewise knew their personalities, player tastes, and most importantly trade habits...today, you have to spend quite a bit of time engineering the perfect trade in online leagues, high stakes leagues, etc.  because you have to spend more time getting to know the other owners.  I think that's a big factor nowadays in not being able to finalize deals.

 
Da Guru said:
Been playing FF and FBB for over 20 years.  One thing that remains constant is that owners will always over value their own players.
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There's some valid theory behind this that it helps to remember.  The reason everyone "overvalues" their guy is because they paid to get them in the first place because they were worth "more" than the guy he passed for him.  Of course they like him otherwise they wouldn't have gotten him.  I don't draft player I hate, and I frequently overdraft players others may have had lower because of certain traits I value.  So when a guy drafts Mike Williams at 1.01 you shouldn't be surprised if he asks for 1.01 type value.  He may not have that value to you, but he sure does to the other guy.

 
I will usually still always try to deal with these owners and make a fair offer but if we are just way off I quickly move on.  I tend to do this with good owners as well.  If you start with what you feel is a reasonable offer and the other owner values the players involved a lot different than you odds are you will never reach a deal so move on to plan B.

 
Something I learned selling cars many moons ago. When the value of the car exceeds the price by $1 then the customer will buy it. In theory and in most league's scoring a starting QB (Flacco) is a better commodity than a WR (Hilton). You need to do the work and have a dialogue to establish his value level. He may not see it for any number of reasons ("It's MY guy, so he must be good", "QBs score more points", "Hilton's a little guy and I think apt to get broke, that's why I like Evans better", etc). You need to find out what his true objection is and see what you can do to overcome it (Hilton may be little but he can bench press more than Garcon"). Either build the value in the offer you already think is fair (Sports Illustrated and ESPN both think Parker is going to blow up this year") and give him a link. Or show him how Flacco not sitting on his bench is a good thing for him because it frees up a contract slot for that rookie QB he covets but can't sign because he already has 3 QBs.

Trading prep is no different than the hours of draft prep and lineup angst we do. You get out of it what you put in. If your trade offer is I'll give you player x for  player Y and you move on because he balks, then you're wasting your own time as well as his and the trade you eventually do make will be a second or third tier one rather than the one you initially wanted to begin with.

I'm not saying some guys just don't and won't get it, but pass thee guy up because you feel he's unreasonable. In his mind, he's not. You just gotta find out why you have different opinions of the trade's value.

just my :2cents:

 
Hankmoody said:
There's some valid theory behind this that it helps to remember.  The reason everyone "overvalues" their guy is because they paid to get them in the first place because they were worth "more" than the guy he passed for him.  Of course they like him otherwise they wouldn't have gotten him.  I don't draft player I hate, and I frequently overdraft players others may have had lower because of certain traits I value.  So when a guy drafts Mike Williams at 1.01 you shouldn't be surprised if he asks for 1.01 type value.  He may not have that value to you, but he sure does to the other guy.
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Right.  If you DON'T think a player has value, or at least "potential", why is he on your roster?  So, accepting this, you need to offer enough to "improve" someone's roster overall.  When somebody comes to me with a lowball offer, I wonder if he has any clues whatsoever.  In fact, if an offer is "even", I don't see any reason to improve his team while mine goes nowhere -- it IS a competition after all.  So...  maybe making complicated trades would provide a more reasonable avenue.  That is, weighing a major improvement at WR in exchange for two minor improvements for an opponent MIGHT be easier to complete than a one-for-one.

 
Da Guru said:
Been playing FF and FBB for over 20 years.  One thing that remains constant is that owners will always over value their own players.
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I always knew this was the case also. In my case, it would happen right after the auction - in my experience, as soon as an owner drafts a player their value goes up by 10%-20% vs. what it was pre-draft, even if you use the valuation from the same owner.

I didn't know why this was, until I read Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics by Richard Thaler. Here's what he says,

"People are more likely to keep what they start with than to trade it, even when initial allocations were done at random. The result [of a study] could not be any stronger or clearer."

"Those who start out with some object will tend to keep it, while those who don't have such an object won't be that keen to buy one"

"The [...] experiments show that people have a tendency to stick with what they have, at least in part because of loss aversion. Once I have that mug [an object they were using for an experiment], I think of it as mine. Giving it up would be a loss. And the endowment effect can kick in very fast"

I thought it was cool he scientifically proved what I anecdotally knew to be true :-) BTW, if you can stand to read the whole book, there are other useful FF truisms in there that can be put to good use.

 
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Just be patient. Eventually the values being wacky will work in your favor and you'll get a steal. Just stay in contact with these owners and be respectful of their janky values so that it's not your leaguemates that get the chance to pounce on a good deal when it presents itself, it's you.

 
Dr. Dan said:
The point of referencing the thread was the fact that he proposed garbage for robinson. similar to this thread where you have someone who over or under values particular players. But whatever. Guess you had to be there. 
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yeah, i got the point of it when you posted it, I was trying to join in on the joke and then someone forgot the punchline or something

 
Trading is not easy.nor should it be. Is the fun not the discussion. 

Depending on league rules, I would not be interested in the 3 guys you offered for Flacco either. But I also like Flacco who is a target in redraft for me. Maybe they make WR better but maybe I am not thinking these guys make me playoff contender anyways and hurt draft spot.

communication though is key but I have yet to ever play in a league with all owners like you or me. But these leagues would have lots of trade banter but how many trades would really go down. I played in a league with my brother for 20 years. How many trades. Total of 5. How many talks. Thousands. We think very much alike and sometimes difference was one round pick.  I agree we all overrate our players. Why we own. Great point on that. Why trading has been tough. League position is another. Easier when one is rebuilding and other is in winning mode. Even harder when both are winning mode. So many factors

in this scenario, I am good with him not wanting any of the three Wr's. He did tell you that which is good. Maybe you want to know why but that is upto you to ask. So him coming back for the moon is okay also. Maybe he is really letting you know who he thinks would help his team. Of course would have been better if he said, I would be interested in one of these three and what plus Flacco would get a deal done. Where would you have gone than

Really all about good communication and than keeping channels open. We can't all see eye to eye in the end. The trade negotiation is the fun part in the end. Have to keep this in mind. 

 
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