Need Some FBG feedback/advice for vacation time protocols at your place of employment. (1 Viewer)

Hey All-- Two things before I get started here. First of all--thank you in advance to any of you that take the time to respond to this thread with their feedback/advice and experience in this topic.  Secondly--I'm not one to start many threads and I understand that this is a pretty bland topic-- and I apologize for that.  

Without going too far into detail--here is my situation.  I am the manager of a small but very busy business.   I don't handle scheduling at all--with the exception of marking my own vacation time requests on a calendar months in advance.  I've been working at the same place for 24 years and I get four weeks of paid vacation every year.  I think that's pretty normal to good for that many years of employment.   I'm also the only employee that gets paid via salary as I put in far more than 40 work hours per week.  

The rest of the staff (5 other people) gets paid hourly and have been working there for various amounts of time. One employee has been with us for 12+ years(close to a full time worker), another employee for 5+ years (although she only works 1-2 days per week), another employee  has worked there 4 years (he's a full time worker) and two newbies that have been working there for less than 2 years each (both part time).   The issue is that we have always been accommodative to everybodies schedule requests--but this year the number of vacations being taken by various employees are really leaving us shorthanded.  We have part time employees taking 2-6 week long vacations simultaneously and it's really putting lots of pressure on the skeleton crew that is left to work.   Because of this--we are thinking about imposing vacation protocols that prevent this from happening in the future. 

What I'm asking for is what your experience is in regards to how you handle vacation requests at work. Do you limit how many people can take time off simultaneously--and if so--how is priority determined?  Does seniority play a role?  Do you have limits in regards to how long vacations can be?  How many weeks of vacation is appropriate/typical for employees (based on part time/full time+years of employment) in your experience?  Are their strategies or protocols at your workplaces that seem to be effective in handling this dynamic?...etc. Any type of advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated!!

I don't have anything to offer about vacation policies. I just wanted to offer that professional organizations generally don't refer to their female employees as gals and girls anymore. Just a thought, do with it what you want.

My wife used to work at a Wells Fargo branch and they'd have a signup sheet for vacations at certain points in the year. It started with the more senior employees who got first dibs and then ended up with the lower level employees. 

Coming from a corporate background I always thought it was BS for it to be so restrictive but I guess it makes sense for retail. 

Drunken Poster said:

I don't have anything to offer about vacation policies. I just wanted to offer that professional organizations generally don't refer to their female employees as gals and girls anymore. Just a thought, do with it what you want.

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That's a fair point--and perhaps I was too conversational in how I worded things. In reality the gender of the employees doesn't play a role so I did edit the post to remove that from the equation.  Good catch and I do appreciate you taking the time to point it out. 

2 six week long vacations simultaneously and they are part time?

Dude I'm a government guy who believes in taking time away from work, and I'd tell them to not bother coming back.  You have a business to run, they are off slapping asses and kite flying leaving you short-handed. 

IMO you advertise and try to fill their jobs immediately, and go from there. 

Drunken Poster said:

I don't have anything to offer about vacation policies. I just wanted to offer that professional organizations generally don't refer to their female employees as gals and girls anymore. Just a thought, do with it what you want.

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Hoes? 

Sleep with their significant others while they're away. (Didn't want to be sexist)

jvdesigns2002 said:

That's a fair point--and perhaps I was too conversational in how I worded things. In reality the gender of the employees doesn't play a role so I did edit the post to remove that from the equation.  Good catch and I do appreciate you taking the time to point it out. 

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I have a relationship with a small business who's employees are 90% women, so maybe I'm a bit sensitive; gal/girl comes off as patriarchal 

Vacations are hard for a small business, especially only 5 people. Seniority first followed by first-come-first-served given required staffing? Management covers as necessary?

Scoresman said:

My wife used to work at a Wells Fargo branch and they'd have a signup sheet for vacations at certain points in the year. It started with the more senior employees who got first dibs and then ended up with the lower level employees. 

Coming from a corporate background I always thought it was BS for it to be so restrictive but I guess it makes sense for retail. 

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Thank you for the time and feedback. We are thinking about somehow implementing seniority into the mix when it comes to prioritizing vacation time requests. We were thinking about possibly just having the most senior member mark their first vacation request on the calendar, followed but he second most senior person--third most senior, fourth most senior, fifth most senior--and then start the rotation again--but even that could have some flaws and shortcomings. 

Drunken Poster said:

I have a relationship with a small business who's employees are 90% women, so maybe I'm a bit sensitive; gal/girl comes off as patriarchal 

Vacations are hard for a small business, especially only 5 people. Seniority first followed by first-come-first-served given required staffing? Management covers as necessary?

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No offense taken to your point about my use of the word gal/girl when it comes to this topic--they were poorly chosen on my part--so no need to further explain why you pointed it out. I'm in full agreement with you there.  

We actually do implement a few of the ideas that you mention.  I'm basically management--and I absolutely cover shifts for when employees are on vacation--and do it happily and proudly.  Our employees are hard workers and I certainly don't want to imply that they don't give it their all at the workplace.  The biggest challenge is that some of the part time employees feel like they can take massive amounts of vacation time under the general excuse of "it shouldn't be that big of a deal because I'm not getting paid for it"--but in reality--it effects the business very negatively. We generally need 3 people working to be our most effective and efficient--and when 2 or 3 people are on vacation at the same time--it really effects the workload, and the  stress levels and the effiency of the store in general.   For example--one of our newbie hires--who is doing a fantastic job--just returned from a 2 week long vacation--and just today requested another 3 week vacation during our busiest time of the year--even though a senior employee has already requested a few days off during that same period of the year.   We generally don't like telling employees that they aren't approved for vacation requests--but it also seems fairly ridiculous to me that a newer part time employee finds it reasonable to expect 5-6 weeks of vacation time per year.   However--my gut instinct to whats normal in the work force these days might not be in tune with reality--as I've been in the same place for 24 years.    This is why I'm asking for feedback.  In any case--thank you for your time and feedback. 

You have been an employee at this company for 24 years?

Send an email to the owner and tell them when you are taking your vacation.

That's it.

The part-timers and recent hires can go pound sand.

Teddy Stickles said:

You have been an employee at this company for 24 years?

Send an email to the owner and tell them when you are taking your vacation.

That's it.

The part-timers and recent hires can go pound sand.

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Lol.  I love your post. Diplomacy must flow through your veins.  Lol.    Thank you for taking the time. 

First come, first serve.  No overlapsies.

How many hours more than 40 do you work?  Haven't you seen the lawyer commercials about unfair overtime practices?  You should probably sue.

Oh and vacation?  Those are for the lazy. 

Seniority absolutely plays a role - but also consider relative worth.  If you have a high performer, keep them happy first and that my mean they jump the line when it comes to seniority.  If you have a low performer, bump them to the back of the line.  And robots.  Replace any part timers with robots because they don't require vacation.

I don't like seniority policies for the reason Mr. Know-It-All mentions but also you want to keep the option open of using your discretion.  I'll give you an example.  The most popular day for employees to request off where I work is the day after Thanksgiving.  Let's say I have a well-performing new employee that wants that day off because their family is driving several states away to have Thanksgiving with ailing Grandma who might not make it to the next year.  However, a more senior employee wants it off to go shopping.  It's pretty obvious who should be allowed off.

I don't have experience with so many part-timers.  One thing I was surprised to read was the tenures.  Usually I think of part-time, retail jobs as high-turnover, low skill and relatively easily replaced.  If this isn't the case for you, you may have to be more flexible to retain them.  

Drunken Poster said:

I don't have anything to offer about vacation policies. I just wanted to offer that professional organizations generally don't refer to their female employees as gals and girls anymore. Just a thought, do with it what you want.

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You come in here with some condescending, self-righteous PC  ?  C'mon, man, take it to your Snowflakes Anonymous meeting instead.  There really was no point in you saying this.

Back to the subject - I know when i worked retail for 13 years it was first come, first serve regardless of position.  If we could accommodate multiple vacations we would but the first person who signed up got priority.   People just asking for time off - mostly part timers because they didn't have a lot of vacation time (if any) - were only accommodated if it did not interfere with any other approved vacations and it didn't hurt the business.  

So in the case of part timers, I agree with @Doctor Detroit on this - if they don't like it that they can't take off whenever they want then you should find someone else.  And it's also not fair to put extra stress on the other employees because you're trying to be accommodating.  The business should always come first.

I just want to point out that it's not "vacation" time for people that haven't earned it - it's really just requesting time off.  To the employee they are going on vacation but to the business it is just an employee asking to take off.  So in reality that is a lower priority than someone who is actually taking vacation they have earned and this should absolutely weigh in any decision making about vacations/time off.  I'm not saying that someone with an un-approved vacation could, at any time, bump someone who already submitted an approved time-off request, but if they both come to you at the same time then the person with the vacation would have a higher priority.

I also agree with @Juxtatarot that, as a business, you have the discretion to change things up if necessary for out of the ordinary situations.

Thanks for the responses so far. In general- all of the employees perform well. With that being said- the more experienced workers (who also happen to be full time or close to full time workers) do have a lot more on their plates when it comes to their duties. One of our primary purposes for coupling our staff with 2-3 extra part time workers was to allow for flexibility in time off/vacations for the full timers.  We've generally accommodated everybodies vacation requests in the past because we've never had anybody abuse our open door vacation request system. We now have a couple hard working part timers that think it's reasonable to ask for and mark themselves off for 6-8 weeks of vacation per year.  Because of this- we are considering leaving the policy "open door"- but to create a maximum limit to how much time off a part timer requests off- and to prohibit employees from marking themselves off at times that have already been marked off by others. 

At your workplaces- how many weeks of vacation time do most part timers get annually? I think this information is important.

I work at a law office with less than 20 employees. Your post is timely because vacations have been an issue. We really don't have a direct policy on vacations other than that sufficient notice is required and, if you're leaving, you're expected to line up coverage of your duties. I've noticed that there are some employees who never vacation, and a couple who exploit the lack of policy. The latter has us considering actually instituting a policy of a certain number of paid vacation/sick days per year with any further time off to be unpaid and cleared ahead of time. This is mainly for staff who are paid hourly. 

I always allow whomever scheduled first to take priority.The only time that I will reconsider is if someone is taking time off for an event they can't control, such as a kids/grandkids graduation or a major family reunion. I've also never heard of part timers getting a vacation.

UncleZen said:

I always allow whomever scheduled first to take priority.The only time that I will reconsider is if someone is taking time off for an event they can't control, such as a kids/grandkids graduation or a major family reunion. I've also never heard of part timers getting a vacation.

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I think in a lot of union shops they do, but it's based on their average hourly week of work.  For example, if they only average 16 hours a week as a part timer then on the 1st anniversary of their hire date they would have accrued 16 hours (2 days) of vacation.  It's really up to the business but, IMO, in no way should a part timer earn more hours of vacation than they actually put in on a weekly basis.

But, again, it's really up to the business but I think what I specified is pretty standard if vacation is offered to part time employees at all.  Companies are under no obligation to offer vacation at all to anyone if they don't want to.  Although, that would probably be a bad business decision.

Stop being a cheapskate and hire full time workers instead of continuing to part time America!

I manage a staffing/scheduling team at a very large bank/finance company, and attend conferences regularly that speak to these types of questions.  Non-exempt employees at my business get 5 weeks, but some only get 2 or 3.  You didn't mention if your employees have separate sick days or if they are all part of your "PTO Bucket", so consider that as well.

Most importantly, know the laws in your state.  There are no Federal laws that require you to give vacation.  That is an agreement between the employer and employee.  Usually states have a Department of Labor website that you can reference, and most states are very lenient.  One of the toughest is California.

Second, when you do establish a policy, stick to it.  Where you get into trouble is when there is disparate treatment OUTSIDE the policy.  So whether you do a vacation "bid" based on seniority, performance, or even a weighting between the two (which is how my company does it), you really want to ensure everyone is under the same set of rules.

After speaking with hundreds of companies, know this - there is no "right way".  Do what works for your company.  If you are focused purely on expenses, you may not be as flexible.  If retaining your staff is a high priority, then it is different.

You need to cap the maximum vacation for a given time off request. Two weeks or so. If they want six weeks, they can put in three separate requests, which you have the right t turn down. I seriously can't imagine having the nerve to request six weeks off. I think DD covered my feelings on this pretty well above.

it took me six weeks to read those long posts.

UncleZen said:

I've also never heard of part timers getting a vacation.

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It's unpaid. 

I take off December, so I can't offer any guidance.

Osaurus said:

First come, first serve.  No overlapsies.

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Basically this.

We're a small outfit too. We sign off other people's vacation request forms so that everybody up and down the line knows there's cover for the missing staff.

lakerstan said:

I manage a staffing/scheduling team at a very large bank/finance company, and attend conferences regularly that speak to these types of questions.  Non-exempt employees at my business get 5 weeks, but some only get 2 or 3.  You didn't mention if your employees have separate sick days or if they are all part of your "PTO Bucket", so consider that as well.

Most importantly, know the laws in your state.  There are no Federal laws that require you to give vacation.  That is an agreement between the employer and employee.  Usually states have a Department of Labor website that you can reference, and most states are very lenient.  One of the toughest is California.

Second, when you do establish a policy, stick to it.  Where you get into trouble is when there is disparate treatment OUTSIDE the policy.  So whether you do a vacation "bid" based on seniority, performance, or even a weighting between the two (which is how my company does it), you really want to ensure everyone is under the same set of rules.

After speaking with hundreds of companies, know this - there is no "right way".  Do what works for your company.  If you are focused purely on expenses, you may not be as flexible.  If retaining your staff is a high priority, then it is different.

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Thank you all for taking the time to give me feedback and advice on your experiences.  It is much appreciated and the owner and I will absolutely be considering and using some of your suggestions.  Also--thank you Lakerstan for this post.  Lots of great info here.  Being that we are a very small outfit--we don't limit the number of sick days to any employee--we have a trust system and so far nobody has abused that.   In California there are 3 paid sick days annually and we do honor that--and we allow for unpaid sick days above and beyond that.  In any case--thank you all again.  

Your team is small enough it should be easy to work around everyone. I would propose:

Rule1: One person off at a time, first come first serve.

Rule 2: Each employee can initially ask for two weeks off or less per summer.

Rule 3: Try to get employees to take off full weeks in summer so a week is not spoiled by someone taking one or two days off.

Rule 4: Extra days can be granted after all your employees have had a chance to schedule their summer time off.

Expect to have a day here and there when someone is legitimately sick and someone else is already off. Also, a wedding or other special occasion may spring up that leaves you down two for a day.

Good luck with whatever is decided.

El Floppo said:

Basically this.

We're a small outfit too. We sign off other people's vacation request forms so that everybody up and down the line knows there's cover for the missing staff.

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so far, this has worked really well.

employees take responsibility for planning out their absences with eachother by filling out and havign their vacation request forms signed by their co-workers before submitting to the office manager. 

I've only had one problem with this- our recent spring break trip... my MIL decided we were going to Mexico, and booked tickets and hotel prior to my filling out a vacation request form. I showed up to work and the guy who covers me had coincidentally planned to take the same week... created a bit of friction (particularly because he was overdue for a vacation and I had taken one since his last), but we worked it out. thumbwrestling match. 

a place like yours (jewelry design, IIRC), probably has people who do similar jobs that can fill in for eachother when needed (during vacations). only way it won't work is if people are just taking vacations whenever they want without clearing it first. IMO- they do that, their vacation is more important than their job.

My son has been working PT at a Sports Memorabilia store in the mall for a year now while in college. He just got approved for a 7-week vacation. I blame @kutta    

Getzlaf15 said:

My son has been working PT at a Sports Memorabilia store in the mall for a year now while in college. He just got approved for a 7-week vacation. I blame @kutta    

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Looking forward to it! Let me know about that steak and bourbon!