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The Progress Paradox (1 Viewer)

GroveDiesel

Footballguy
Has anyone read The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse? It's written by Gregg Easterbrook, a former Hoover Institute fellow, current writer at The New Republic and The Atlantic, and probably most well known around here for writing Tuesday Morning Quarterback at ESPN.

It's a really fascinating read about how our overall satisfaction keeps going down; depression, anxiety and other similar disorders are rising; our view concerning the future grows dimmer; and yet, almost all objective measures actually show that quality of life is continually increasing. 

In fact, our views are so pessimistic, that they distort our view of reality and lead to terrible decision-making or irrational outlooks.

I think we see this more and more reflected in our politics and this simmering and growing unease and dissatisfaction that seems to be boiling in a large percentage of our country.

It's a bit of a dense book, but it's a highly recommended read from me. I wish more people would read it as I think it would have a great affect on how people view their place in life, how they feel about themselves, and how they feel about others.

 
Has anyone read The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse? It's written by Gregg Easterbrook, a former Hoover Institute fellow, current writer at The New Republic and The Atlantic, and probably most well known around here for writing Tuesday Morning Quarterback at ESPN.

It's a really fascinating read about how our overall satisfaction keeps going down; depression, anxiety and other similar disorders are rising; our view concerning the future grows dimmer; and yet, almost all objective measures actually show that quality of life is continually increasing. 

In fact, our views are so pessimistic, that they distort our view of reality and lead to terrible decision-making or irrational outlooks.

I think we see this more and more reflected in our politics and this simmering and growing unease and dissatisfaction that seems to be boiling in a large percentage of our country.

It's a bit of a dense book, but it's a highly recommended read from me. I wish more people would read it as I think it would have a great affect on how people view their place in life, how they feel about themselves, and how they feel about others.
Tom Wolfe did this in the seventies in his essay about college speakers and the O'Hare airport. It was in Mauve Gloves and Mad Men, Clutter and Vine. I can't recite it verbatim, but he made the same point, probably in less pages, but your post is appreciated and I will certainly look into it. He called the purveyors of doom "reverse Candides," IIRC. 

Here's a Google link to part of the story. Y'all are on your own for the rest. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=IAX9ugMME40C&pg=PT430&lpg=PT430&dq=tom+wolfe,+reverse+candides&source=bl&ots=GhDDxIEU5l&sig=lbeLyWG2MFMrnFln_APJglqDdgM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZuMad4r3UAhUB6mMKHZCABUMQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=tom wolfe%2C reverse candides&f=false

 
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my bluestocking contribution, for the tldrs to listen to while checking their dfs: tape of David Foster Wallace's This is Water commencement speech, keying his thoughts about worship (17:45)

 
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my bluestocking contribution, for the tldrs to listen to while checking their dfs: tape of David Foster Wallace's This is Water commencement speech, keying his thoughts about worship
That's pretty religious, actually. I think DFW was going through his Mennonite transformation and doubt when he wrote that. It's a worthy, worthy speech to read, though. 

Thanks for posting.  

 
That's pretty religious, actually. I think DFW was going through his Mennonite transformation and doubt when he wrote that. It's a worthy, worthy speech to read, though. 

Thanks for posting.  
Well, when you consider what we've chosen to worship - money, power, sex, style etc - since we ran away from God, it may turn out that worship of the eternal is the least repulsive thing we can choose.  Because, as DFW said, worship we will. Because, as i say, belief is the blood of the soul.

 
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Our country is too diverse to please everyone. Having separate laws for states isn't much help either.

 
As I've struggled with depression over the last few years, there were some things that became apparent to me about human beings in today's society.

Basically, whether you believe in creation or evolution, our society has us doing things we aren't built or accustomed to doing.  Being indoors and sitting all day long and having our biggest daily struggles be about what clothes to wear or what restaurant to eat at is not what we are programmed to do.  We have strived for millennia under life and death struggles of finding food and shelter.  When our lives become less about survival and more about pursuit of pleasure, we feel out of place and can't figure out why.

Too many people have no idea what they actually want to do, so they distract themselves with entertainment, but that can really only last so long.

 
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Well, when you consider what we've chosen to worship - money, power, sex, style etc - since we ran away from God, it may turn out that worship of the eternal is the least repulsive thing we can choose.  Because, as DFW said, worship we will. Because, as i say, belief is the blood of the soul.
Great stuff. Very cool read, and I believe, incredibly true. When we learn to focus outside of just ourselves, it certainly changes our lives. And I think both you and DFW nail it: we all worship something.

There's an idea that has become almost cliche in modern Christianity: "each of us are born with a Good-sized hole in our heart." The origin of that idea is likely from Blaise Pascale when he writes:

 “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.” 

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII(425)

I think it's a similar idea to what you are talking about. We all have this innate desire to worship something or have some hole in us filled. Some fill it with money, some with power, some with drugs, some music or art, some with politics, some with serving others, and some with serving God/Allah/Gaia/whatever.

If we attempt to fill ourselves with self-serving things like money, power, sex, etc, I truly believe that it will leave us empty and that there will never be enough to satisfy us. That's why, despite all of the objective "progress" we have made, it hasn't lead to greater satisfaction. 

 
True happiness has very little to do with where one actually falls on the spectrum of life, but how one feels about where they think they are on the spectrum of life.  That's why you have people on the mountaintop killing themselves (either slowly or quickly), and people near the bottom just dancing away, loving life.

Or as Paul the Apostle said, "...I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want."

 
I like this thread. I think I'll camp out and let people post brilliance and sort of read it. 

I just watched the David Foster Wallace speech again. Incredible.  

 
*Lamborghini Miura with epic blond at the wheel buzzes by, blasting our favorite tip. We all forget what we were talking about*

 
I like this thread. I think I'll camp out and let people post brilliance and sort of read it. 

I just watched the David Foster Wallace speech again. Incredible.  
I'd heard of him, but I'm not well read enough to have really known about David Foster Wallace. Since I really enjoyed that speech, I looked him up.  The below is extremely sad, and makes me wish he had found some answers before then.  He was obviously a brilliant man.

"On September 12, 2008, Wallace wrote a two-page suicide note, arranged part of The Pale King manuscript, and hanged himself from a rafter of his house. He was 46."

 
As I've struggled with depression over the last few years, there were some things that became apparent to me about human beings in today's society.

Basically, whether you believe in creation or evolution, our society has us doing things we aren't built or accustomed to doing.  Being indoors and sitting all day long and having our biggest daily struggles be about what clothes to wear or what restaurant to eat at is not what we are programmed to do.  We have strived for centuries under life and death struggles of finding food and shelter.  When our lives become less about survival and more about pursuit of pleasure, we feel out of place and can't figure out why.

Too many people have no idea what they actually want to do, so they distract themselves with entertainment, but that can really only last so long.
I think this extends to other things like the way we eat. We were't designed to eat processed food and consume all this grain and grain-fed animals etc... One of the best changes I've made in my life is eliminating processed foods, refined sugar and grains. 

 
I'd heard of him, but I'm not well read enough to have really known about David Foster Wallace. Since I really enjoyed that speech, I looked him up.  The below is extremely sad, and makes me wish he had found some answers before then.  He was obviously a brilliant man.

"On September 12, 2008, Wallace wrote a two-page suicide note, arranged part of The Pale King manuscript, and hanged himself from a rafter of his house. He was 46."
Yes. He did commit suicide, which gives a different tone to the speech. It is reported that he tried to go off of his lifelong depressant medication, Haldol, before succumbing to suicide, if that helps in context. I think he had profoundly both found and doubted Christianity from his writings. 

I cannot speak to why he did what he did, only offer up official reports from the family and friends. 

His words live on, even if his life was shorter than we would have liked.  

 
wikkidisms:

- Self-reform is the point of life, for it has been the province of every organism which eventuated my existence.

- If thou cannot find God, find truth & beauty. It will serve you just as well.

- For each of us, there is a beauty only we can serve. Find yours and you are free.

- Self-reform builds the mansions where i live and no manner of riches can replace them.

wikkid's favorite otherisms:

- Happiness is the goal of life, for there is no motive beyond it (Aristotle, paraphrased)

- Happiness begins where selfishness ends (UCLA coaching legend John Wooden)

- Humans have limited control of what happens to them, but absolute control of how they respond (my favorite 1st C preacher, slave-turned-senator Epictetus, paraphrased)

- Self-reform does more to change the world than any crowd of noisy patriots (Revolutionary Era philosopher JKLavater, paraphrased)

 
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Plotinus - Enneads

Timeless intersection of West and East, Rational and Spiritual.

 
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Sure, go do some volunteer work in Honduras or someplace. Whole extended families living in big huts with dirt floors. Not a pot to piss in, gotta work tirelessly all day just to live at a subsistence level, but they have each other and they're the happiest mother####ers around. We ##### and moan because an iPhone charger cable costs $20 and lasts a month if you're lucky. We're vapid, superficial sacks of ####, guzzling our fast food crap and living in our fake news bubbles, looking down on those who don't think exactly like us. I'm embarrassed, honestly. 

 
isn't that kind of the point... diverse states give diverse people options?
I believe it is. But even within states the diversity is too great (IMO). And people are unwilling to move to a different state that might better suites their beliefs and values.

 
wikkidisms:

- Self-reform is the point of life, for it has been the province of every organism which eventuated my existence.

- If thou cannot find God, find truth & beauty. It will serve you just as well.

- For each of us, there is a beauty only we can serve. Find yours and you are free.

- Self-reform builds the mansions where i live and no manner of riches can replace them.

wikkid's favorite otherisms:

- Happiness is the goal of life, for there is no motive beyond it (Aristotle, paraphrased)

- Happiness begins where selfishness ends (UCLA coaching legend John Wooden)

- Humans have limited control of what happens to them, but absolute control of how they respond (my favorite 1st C preacher, slave-turned-senator Epictetus, paraphrased)

- Self-reform does more to change the world than any crowd of noisy patriots (Revolutionary Era philosopher JKLavater, paraphrased)
When you find a fork in the road, take it. - Yogi Berra

The situation is hopeless, but not serious. - Paul Watzlawick

* Humor seems to be an important component of being human. Also, a sense of curiosity and wonder. I like generalists and interdisciplinary thinkers like Goethe, for who part of being a "complete" human being (whatever that means, we didn't get an owner's manual at birth, which is why I'm trying to rediscover fragments from ancient/modern sources like Plato, the Bible, Buddha, St. Augustine/Aquinas, Jung, etc.) included physical activity, thinking, writing, music, art. The late Gregory Bateson (Steps to an Ecology of Mind AND Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity) is an outstanding modern example.

I appreciate Bach, and how the perfection of his fugues are akin to certain mathematical or logical theorems (Godel, Escher and Bach by Douglas Hofstadter was a fascinating intellectual synthesis), or the way the outward shape of a crystal reveals how it is determined/dictated by the underlying structure and organization of the physics of how different elemental atoms are stacked in space, like the physical instantiation of a Platonic form/ideal.

 
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I appreciate Bach, and how the perfection of his fugues are akin to certain mathematical or logical theorems (Godel, Escher and Bach by Douglas Hofstadter was a fascinating intellectual synthesis), or the way the outward shape of a crystal reveals how it is determined/dictated by the underlying structure and organization of the physics of how different elemental atoms are stacked in space. 
I drafted "Art of the Fugue" in my last Eephus draft as the closest artistic representation of how the wikkid mind works and "GE&B" is on the closest bookshelf to this keyboard, beside Search for MeaningChaos, EOWilson's Consilience, Origin of Consciousness, All the Strange Hours, my Maslow, Pinker, de Chardin, Koestler, etc. But order only happens in service to the next chaos, the X Factor which brings life to new levels.

That is the process - find the incredible one can and may attain, master it until it is second nature, use that platform to reach beyond one's capacity into the unknown. And live, love, laugh and leave it better than you found it in between. GL to us all -

 
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Well, when you consider what we've chosen to worship - money, power, sex, style etc - since we ran away from God, it may turn out that worship of the eternal is the least repulsive thing we can choose.  Because, as DFW said, worship we will. Because, as i say, belief is the blood of the soul.
My theory is humans are hard wired to believe in something bigger than them

 
My theory is humans are hard wired to believe in something bigger than them
Disagree. We are deeply inclined to need something to be bigger than ourselves because the 100,000,000,000 people who broke their hearts and backs before us worked too ####in hard for this all to be meaningless and passed that down HARD. Voltaire, a heathen like i'm a heathen, said it the way people could hear it in his time. "If God didn't already exist, it would have been necessary to invent Him".

I also disagree that we are hard-wired to do anything. We are silly putty - the only hardwiring within us exists so we dont starve while we find that out. We each house two entities - a selfish, preening, scared & angry ape, lookin for someone to either #### or throw poop at, and a living, pulsing, organic computer, capable of more combinations than there are atoms on this planet. 99% of the time, we let the monkey decide the things important to us, when it is not optimum to allow it primacy in any more than 5% of life's situations. The myth of hardwire, the myth of God, what i call the myth of Mondays (that you gotta do what you gotta do) and most of the others are the monkey talking. Good luck with that -

 
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So I am going to be disagreeable for a moment. First I don't believe that people have no reason to be depressed or anxious over the state of the world today. Especially their personal worlds here in the US. Which as we should all be well aware for many people ain't that great. They have lost their livelihoods, they see a future where their children will be less well off than them, will have shorter life expectancy than them, they are fearful of what happens if they get sick, and for so many they know that any kind of relatively minor financial emergency can throw their lives into a tailspin. Speaking for the US we live in a country where half the people make 30k a year or less. I don't think wanting to get to a better place than that is worshiping money. I think it's a survival instinct. And yeah some people live in mudhuts in other countries. Well I don't want to and I don't want my kids to but I might be afraid that's where it's heading. So this whole idea that things are  objectively better sounds like it comes from a place of privilege. A privilege many of us don't get to share in.

I lay awake at night wondering what would happen to my wife if I died. I am all she has and I provide everything she has. I pay every bill, run every errand, buy every meal, get her to the doctor, pickup her prescriptions, and on and on. Her parents are in their 70s and not doing well. My parents are even worse off. Her brother is trying to eat himself to death. In today's society I know she will be roadkill. She'll end up in some hellhole nursing home with her little bit of SS and Medicare. Her life will be one long dreary day after another until she dies. With a little luck at least maybe she won't be abused. But hey the world is one big candy store so I should be thrilled. Sorry not so much. Not here. Not in this country, not as it's run today.

I don't want much. Which is good because I'm not getting much. It'd be nice to retire but that's just a pipe dream. I'll be lucky not to die on the job in my old age. I wouldn't mind a nicer place to live. Not the mansion I delivered to tonight that was bigger than my entire apartment building. Just more than the 700 sq ft nearly 50 year old apartment I live in would be nice. A new car every 5-6 years. Yeah I laughed to myself about that. I haven't bought a new car in almost 30 years. The last one I did buy was stolen and totalled. Always used because that's what I can get. A vacation every few years would be nice but between my wife and the money that's another joke. That's the kind of life of constant denial a lot of us live day in and day out.

Don't tell me and the millions like me we have no reason to think the world isn't such a great place right now.

 
We probably dont have enough data on human happiness to really understand yet. We dont really know how happy people were in the 1700s and 1800s even the start of the 1900s.   We should be careful to assume the level of satisfaction 50 years ago was normal.  Maybe the level 50 years ago was absurdly high and we are returning to more historic norms today. 

 
Sure, go do some volunteer work in Honduras or someplace. Whole extended families living in big huts with dirt floors. Not a pot to piss in, gotta work tirelessly all day just to live at a subsistence level, but they have each other and they're the happiest mother####ers around. We ##### and moan because an iPhone charger cable costs $20 and lasts a month if you're lucky. We're vapid, superficial sacks of ####, guzzling our fast food crap and living in our fake news bubbles, looking down on those who don't think exactly like us. I'm embarrassed, honestly. 
Love it.  

 
NCCommish said:
So I am going to be disagreeable for a moment. First I don't believe that people have no reason to be depressed or anxious over the state of the world today. Especially their personal worlds here in the US. Which as we should all be well aware for many people ain't that great. They have lost their livelihoods, they see a future where their children will be less well off than them, will have shorter life expectancy than them, they are fearful of what happens if they get sick, and for so many they know that any kind of relatively minor financial emergency can throw their lives into a tailspin. Speaking for the US we live in a country where half the people make 30k a year or less. I don't think wanting to get to a better place than that is worshiping money. I think it's a survival instinct. And yeah some people live in mudhuts in other countries. Well I don't want to and I don't want my kids to but I might be afraid that's where it's heading. So this whole idea that things are  objectively better sounds like it comes from a place of privilege. A privilege many of us don't get to share in.

I lay awake at night wondering what would happen to my wife if I died. I am all she has and I provide everything she has. I pay every bill, run every errand, buy every meal, get her to the doctor, pickup her prescriptions, and on and on. Her parents are in their 70s and not doing well. My parents are even worse off. Her brother is trying to eat himself to death. In today's society I know she will be roadkill. She'll end up in some hellhole nursing home with her little bit of SS and Medicare. Her life will be one long dreary day after another until she dies. With a little luck at least maybe she won't be abused. But hey the world is one big candy store so I should be thrilled. Sorry not so much. Not here. Not in this country, not as it's run today.

I don't want much. Which is good because I'm not getting much. It'd be nice to retire but that's just a pipe dream. I'll be lucky not to die on the job in my old age. I wouldn't mind a nicer place to live. Not the mansion I delivered to tonight that was bigger than my entire apartment building. Just more than the 700 sq ft nearly 50 year old apartment I live in would be nice. A new car every 5-6 years. Yeah I laughed to myself about that. I haven't bought a new car in almost 30 years. The last one I did buy was stolen and totalled. Always used because that's what I can get. A vacation every few years would be nice but between my wife and the money that's another joke. That's the kind of life of constant denial a lot of us live day in and day out.

Don't tell me and the millions like me we have no reason to think the world isn't such a great place right now.
My brother.

Don't worry about the world. The world is one of the least important places where you live, the country possibly even less. You live within the family of humankind, which has room for all its faults, including yours; you live within the family you were given; you live within the family you've made and, most importantly, you live within the family of cells which comprise NCCommish, a substantial man by every account you've given here. Every human who cares to add as you do is a gift to us all - improves the ether, repairs the air. And you receive the gift of living in the skin and accepting the cares & challenges of that substantial man each and every day. Lucky you.

Why forget the country, the world? Because it's in a correction period after the most incredible growth spurt in the history of earthly life. When you were born, 2/3 of the citizens of the US of A, the freest country in the history of the world, were not allowed to choose how they conducted their lives. Now, virtually every person in America has a reasonable chance to determine their destiny. Some have more challenges than others, sure, inequity still runs rampant, the selfishness of our freedom celebration has set things out of balance and the haves have profiteered the #### out of that, as always. But you have been witness to and benefited from the greatest miracle in the history of civilization - the rise of the common person. Unfortunately, the first gens free to believe as they choose have largely chosen to believe in nothing, stuff, or themselves to the exclusion of others and America has splintered into 300.000,000 separate constituencies, most expecting to get more than they give, which is untenable.

But we have been to the mountaintop. Unfortunately, all views from a summit are down.

There are higher mountains to climb. We'll get there one day. Not today.

You are a substantial man. Effect what you can. Enjoy your talent, your care, your family, your place on the slope of the awesome hill we've climbed. Receive the pleasure of doing for yourself, your own, your sisters & brothers in the family of mankind when you can spare the effort. Invest the energy wasted on your disgust over the evidence of our dissolution into something smaller, more meaningful, more tactile. The world will catch up again, we are just waiting out the turbulence from an epoch of revolutions in almost our every way. Live, love, laugh, leave it better than you found it. It will be enough, i promise.

 
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I drafted "Art of the Fugue" in my last Eephus draft as the closest artistic representation of how the wikkid mind works and "GE&B" is on the closest bookshelf to this keyboard, beside Search for MeaningChaos, EOWilson's Consilience, Origin of Consciousness, All the Strange Hours, my Maslow, Pinker, de Chardin, Koestler, etc. But order only happens in service to the next chaos, the X Factor which brings life to new levels.

That is the process - find the incredible one can and may attain, master it until it is second nature, use that platform to reach beyond one's capacity into the unknown. And live, love, laugh and leave it better than you found it in between. GL to us all -
Significant overlap in our respective libraries.

Just got a few orchestral transcriptions of Bach by the LA Phil and BBC (conducted by Leonard Slatkin).

That was what Jung (and Sting) call a synchronicity, I was thinking of Frankl when noting some of my books, also Norman Cousins (both authors talk about the power of mind, the former to hold a sense of meaning and purpose to defeat existential despair, latter using humor to cure illness). I read Chaos, I admire an author who can take arcane, abstruse subjects and render them understandable to the layperson, a popularization without being oversimplified (Koestler a master at this, in another synchronicity, he also wrote Ghost in the Machine, another Police intersection). If you liked that, I highly recommend Complexity by Waldrop. Much of it was centered on some of the world's leading researchers based in The Santa Fe Institute, visionary, futuristic and cutting edge in '92, but I imagine still ahead of its time a quarter century later. Consilience an awesome book, I read it about the same time as the Astonishing Hypothesis: Scientific Search For The Soul, co-authored by Crick of Nobel laureate, DNA fame. Wilson is no doubt one of the world's greatest living naturalists (I have a massive book on Ants by him, I believe his specialty, though obviously he is a generalist when it comes to his broader science writing). Origin of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind by Jaynes was fascinating, not sure about the premise, but it forced me to think about the evidence (kind of archeological excavation of the mind drawing inferences from Homer) in new ways - what more could you ask for?  :)  Not familiar with the Eisley book, another naturalist? Maslow a seminal humanistic psychologist (with Rogers), I know more OF him than actually read in the original. Koestler's Act of Creation also a landmark in the early-mid '60's, about parallels in the fields of art, literature, science, invention and discovery and humor. That and The Sleepwalkers (brilliant history of astronomy) are my favorites, also surveys Janus and Bricks to Babel (coincidentally holding Yogi and the Robot to pick up tomorrow). Pinker a thought provoking cognitive scientist, I have a few by him. My favorite survey and overview is The Mind's New Science: A History of the Cognitive Revolution by Howard Gardner (of Frames of Mind, multiple intelligences fame). de Chardin another I know OF through reputation (I like a paraphrased quote, all things converge as they ascend). 

I currently have multiple libraries, but most philosophy oriented lately (thread Roots of Western Thought if interested). By my bed stand I have a stack of a half dozen foundational books for me:

1) Expect the Unexpected by Roger Von Oech (uses Heraclitus in the service of Creativity).

2) Guide For the Perplexed by E.F. Schumacher (very wise man who wrote the counter-culture economics book Small Is Beautiful).

3) Mind And Nature: A Necessary Unity by Gregory Bateson (father coined word *GENE*, married anthropologist Margaret Mead, was in the Macy Cybernetics Conferences of the '50s with Norbert Wiener and John Von Neumann, did mammalian communication research with dolphins, formulated the Double Bind theory of schizophrenia and at the end of his life was attempting a unitary synthesis that bridged the world's of biology and epistemology).

4) Unity of Philosophical Experience by Etienne Gilson (IMO the most lucid, humane and greatest historian of philosophy, incisively reveals how repeatedly throughout history there are cycles where a movement mistakes a part for the whole and ends in scepticism, rinse/repeat). 

5) The Idea Of Nature by R.G. Collingwood (thematically similar to The Sleepwalkers by Koestler, one of the generalist/interdisciplinary giants of the 20th century, simultaneously one of the preeminent British philosophers and historians in his specialty of his era).

6) Essay On Man by Ernst Cassirer (another generalist and interdisciplinary thinker, with Bateson, Koestler and Collingwood, in some ways the "last man to know everything", sometimes it helps to look at the big picture, this is a summation of his monumental Philosophy of Symbolic Forms, sections on language, myth/religion, math/logic/science, in which man's various SYMBOL SYSTEMS by which he MEDIATELY makes sense of himself and the universe/creation, unless we are talking about direct mystical intuition, somewhat akin to a Rodin relief in which the characters struggle to free themselves from the underlying matrix or material substratum they are embedded in).

* Also highly recommended (all the below are oversized and profusely illustrated, making great coffee table books)

Man And His Symbols by Carl Jung (my favorite psychologist, no need for the first half of the 20th Century qualifier, his last book, with eminent protégés and one of the best and broadest general intros for the layperson).

A Study Of History - The First Abridged One-Volume Edition Illustrated by Arnold Toynbee (arguably the greatest historian of the 20th Century, looks for patterns and cycles by employing a taxonomy of societies and cultures, living and dead, a distillation of his massive original 12 volume magnum opus).

The Secret Teachings Of All Ages by Manly P. Hall (The Perennial Philosophy by Brave New World author Aldous Huxley probably my favorite work strictly on comparative religion, this a little more breadth and depth on esoteric systems).

** The art of the mystic and visionary Romantic poet William Blake, especially:

Dante's Divine Comedy, The Illuminated Blake, British Retrospective and The Complete Graphic Works.

 
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Significant overlap in our respective libraries.......
Complexity, Astonishing Hypothesis, Man/Symbols, Essay on Man, buncha Rogers are all on the shelf below. i'm not a good reader anymore - takes forever cuz i add my own paragraphs of thought almost sentence by sentence, so i rarely do it except for research - but i'll definitely add some Bateson to my shelves.

I've been to Hall's PRS shop down by Silver Lake in LA. The first novel i ever attempted was based on the Count of St Germain - not the one that was worshiped in the Billy Sunday/Aimee McPherson days and by weird sects to this day, but the actual 18th C con man - and the Manly man was the leading curator of Germainalia.

It does indeed seem we've taken synchronistic paths thru this material world. Know any girls named Roxanne?

 
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Obviously this is all armchair psychology but my best guess is that it has to do with the increase in IQ, massive increase in education and insane access to information we have today. We are as a collective, the most well informed and intelligent generations of humans to evert exist (high five) but it's often been noted that ignorance is bliss. Twain said "Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination" and Hemingway said "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." All this knowledge means we are also aware of all the the potential dangers and all the things that could go wrong. There is a lot that can be worried about. 

 
Complexity, Astonishing Hypothesis, Man/Symbols, Essay on Man, buncha Rogers are all on the shelf below. i'm not a good reader anymore - takes forever cuz i add my own paragraphs of thought almost sentence by sentence, so i rarely do it except for research - but i'll definitely add some Bateson to my shelves.

I've been to Hall's PRS shop down by Silver Lake in LA. The first novel i ever attempted was based on the Count of St Germain - not the one that was worshiped in the Billy Sunday/Aimee McPherson days and by weird sects to this day, but the actual 18th C con man - and the Manly man was the leading curator of Germainalia.

It does indeed seem we've taken synchronistic paths thru this material world. Know any girls named Roxanne?
No Roxanne but a Summer Copeland?

Mind and Nature without a doubt Bateson's most accessible work, a summation of his life's work/thought.

Steps to an Ecology of Mind might be his magnum opus, it is denser, more scholarly, systematically covers the many fields he ranged across, complementary to M & N, and the Metalogues (think Plato's dialogues from a contemporary generalist, interdisciplinary perspective) alone are worth the price of admission.

* The Wilson book on ants (a subject he indeed made his mark with and became a worldwide authority on early) was actually broader and co-authored, with Bert Holldobler - no relation to ex-Card OL voted dirtiest in the league  :)  :

The Super-Organism - The Beauty, Elegance And Strangeness Of Insect Societies

[I always found it fascinating that ants, bees and other insects can have such relatively complex language-like coded communications and repertoires of behavior with no conventional brains but effectively just a few loosely organized neuronal ganglia, as well as their collective hive mind command and control structures and organizations - I'd like to read or write a book about how language and behavior repertoire expands as you ascend up the animal kingdom as a function of the underlying nervous system complexity]

 
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@wikkidpissah

Paul Watzlawick was an interesting later thinker associated with Bateson, especially:

How Real Is Real - Confusion, Disinformation, Communication (An Anecdotal Introduction To Communications Theory)

The Invented Reality - How Do We Know What We Believe We Know? (editor of essay collection to which he also contributed)

The Situation Is Hopeless, But Not Serious

 
@wikkidpissah

Paul Watzlawick was an interesting later thinker associated with Bateson, especially:

How Real Is Real - Confusion, Disinformation, Communication (An Anecdotal Introduction To Communications Theory)

The Invented Reality - How Do We Know What We Believe We Know? (editor of essay collection to which he also contributed)

The Situation Is Hopeless, But Not Serious
thx Bob - will check it out

 
I drafted "Art of the Fugue" in my last Eephus draft as the closest artistic representation of how the wikkid mind works and "GE&B" is on the closest bookshelf to this keyboard, beside Search for MeaningChaos, EOWilson's Consilience, Origin of Consciousness, All the Strange Hours, my Maslow, Pinker, de Chardin, Koestler, etc. But order only happens in service to the next chaos, the X Factor which brings life to new levels.

That is the process - find the incredible one can and may attain, master it until it is second nature, use that platform to reach beyond one's capacity into the unknown. And live, love, laugh and leave it better than you found it in between. GL to us all -
I have recently found a want to learn more about Pinker's theories wikkid; other than the summaries one gets in "general courses".

Do you have a recommendation list...or perhaps an order of reading if you believe more than one work would be beneficial?

 
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I have recently found a want to learn more about Pinker's theories wikkid; other than the summaries one gets in "general courses".

Do you have a recommendation list...or perhaps an order of reading if you believe more than one work would be beneficial?
You're more studious than i, so may find differently. Pinker made his rep with Language Instinct but i found it heavily academic and had to plow through a lot of bona fides to get the very worthy knowledge of his specialty. How the Mind Works is my favorite brain book (sorry Dr. Jaynes) and is written in the integrative, popularizing (see Consilience, Elegant Universe, etc) style my patience & concentration can handle

 
You're more studious than i, so may find differently. Pinker made his rep with Language Instinct but i found it heavily academic and had to plow through a lot of bona fides to get the very worthy knowledge of his specialty. How the Mind Works is my favorite brain book (sorry Dr. Jaynes) and is written in the integrative, popularizing (see Consilience, Elegant Universe, etc) style my patience & concentration can handle
Thnx mang.

How the Mind Works sounds like a good start for me.

Appreciate the map here.  :thumbup:

 
You're more studious than i
Oh, and on this...

...I do not believe so.

I took lots of "classes", but SH!T!...they aint experience, nor do they convey "truth" imo.

I was always an "outlier" in the classroom.

I just learned a different language on a few minor things.

The majors are still defining their language in my opinion. ;)

 

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