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Unlimited Vacation time - the "new" trend? (1 Viewer)

snogger

snogger

Footballguy
Word slipped today from a manager( oops )  that our vacation policy is going to change soon to Approved "Unlimited" Vacation hours. For some that will sound exciting at first.. but it has it draw backs.

Right now I get 5 weeks of vacation a year and can "bank" up to 5 weeks( 200 hours). I only tend to take 2 or 3 one week vacations so I watch my banked hours and make sure to take a couple of days off each month to make sure I don't "lose" hours. Watching the amount of hours I have banked is a nice "push" to make me take a couple of days off a month to relax.

Also, if I leave the company or get laid off, I get paid for those banked hours. With this new policy there are no banked hours and therefore the company isn't on the hook to pay them if they lay you off or you leave. Smart on the companies part, but no "safety net" now. :kicksrock:

We are getting a new "benefit" added due to this policy change in that we will get 40 hours of sick time a year( there was no such thing as Sick time previously), that can accumulate to 80 if not used.
Problem is I can't recall the last time I called in sick. I work from home so sick is just another day, albeit maybe at a slower pace. Guess I'll have to start using them for even small things like allergies.

Anyone else have a "Unlimited" Policy that can give advice on how you are managing it to make sure you take the time off to avoid getting burned out??

 
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I have heard about this to appease the millennial population.  I cannot think of anything worse for development of a young worker.  My old company had this policy but we were eat what we killed meaning that if I didn't work I didn't get paid.  That made sense to me.

 
My company's been doing this for a few years.   I would rather have 5 weeks of set vacation.  As you insinuated above, it almost seems like taking vacation time is less encouraged by the company when it's "free."  It's even something my staff has complained about.  Particularly when corporate pushes certain metrics we are expected to meet, but we can generally only meet these metrics by taking no vacation time.  :loco:

 
Buttonhook said:
My company's been doing this for a few years.   I would rather have 5 weeks of set vacation.  As you insinuated above, it almost seems like taking vacation time is less encouraged by the company when it's "free."  It's even something my staff has complained about.  Particularly when corporate pushes certain metrics we are expected to meet, but we can generally only meet these metrics by taking no vacation time.  :loco:
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Yup. I get 3 weeks, it's "acceptable" for me to take them all. I get unlimited and suddenly I get death stares for taking 3 weeks. 

 
sbonomo said:
I have heard about this to appease the millennial population.  I cannot think of anything worse for development of a young worker.  My old company had this policy but we were eat what we killed meaning that if I didn't work I didn't get paid.  That made sense to me.
Click to expand...
Anything you've heard about "appeasing" millennials is BS you've been fed. This is done for two reasons: companies not needing to carry unused vacation time as liabilities, and because research shows people take less time off when they aren't allocated a specific amount.

 
Buttonhook said:
My company's been doing this for a few years.   I would rather have 5 weeks of set vacation.  As you insinuated above, it almost seems like taking vacation time is less encouraged by the company when it's "free."  It's even something my staff has complained about.  Particularly when corporate pushes certain metrics we are expected to meet, but we can generally only meet these metrics by taking no vacation time.  :loco:
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This is an entirely different problem.  Bank of America (a former employer) is notorious for completely screwing employees by knowing understaffing positions and basing bonus on meeting stretch goals (with fewer employees).  

 
RUSF18 said:
Anything you've heard about "appeasing" millennials is BS you've been fed. This is done for two reasons: companies not needing to carry unused vacation time as liabilities, and because research shows people take less time off when they aren't allocated a specific amount.
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I'd take more than 2 weeks this year if I could.  I've allocated 9 of my 10 days already.

 
RUSF18 said:
Anything you've heard about "appeasing" millennials is BS you've been fed. This is done for two reasons: companies not needing to carry unused vacation time as liabilities, and because research shows people take less time off when they aren't allocated a specific amount.
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Link?  Also you don't think employers change comp and benefit package to appeal to their workforce????  

 
sbonomo said:
This is an entirely different problem.  Bank of America (a former employer) is notorious for completely screwing employees by knowing understaffing positions and basing bonus on meeting stretch goals (with fewer employees).  
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Working with a team of fellow BofA refugees.  We basically use the official time for any full day vacations/sickness and everything else is flexible as long as the job is getting done well.  Nice being somewhere that is overstaffed with low goals for a change.  :thumbup:  

 
sbonomo said:
RUSF18 said:
Anything you've heard about "appeasing" millennials is BS you've been fed. This is done for two reasons: companies not needing to carry unused vacation time as liabilities, and because research shows people take less time off when they aren't allocated a specific amount.
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Link?  Also you don't think employers change comp and benefit package to appeal to their workforce????  
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Here is one

Traditional vacation time is set by policy and by law, you're entitled to it. 'Unlimited' vacation time is a cultural thing rather than a real benefit. You can take some of your 'unlimited' vacation time when your boss finds it convenient.

Maybe that day comes, and maybe it doesn't. Working people shouldn't be in the position of having to wheedle and beg for vacation time.

People need time off work for the health of their brain and body. Yet many company cultures look down on time off. I've seen it in large and small organizations, where taking time off is a sign of weakness.
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And a "Failure" Story

"We looked at the numbers, and it turned out we had a problem," he writes. "The problem wasn't that people were taking too much holiday. Quite the opposite, in fact."

While you'd assume that giving people free rein to plan their time would lead to them taking more time to refresh and recharge, Triggertrap's experience belies this logic. "In the UK, you tend to be told how many 'days of holiday' you have left on your pay slip, which means that you get a monthly reminder of how many days you've taken, and how many you have left. This tends to lead to people actually taking their days off—because if you don't take them by the end of the year, you lose them," Jan Kramps explains. Without that monthly nudge his staff were taking less time, not more.
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:oldunsure:

 
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My Wife's workplace does this but only for certain "you eat what you kill" positions. So what is management going to do when everyone wants to be off around the holidays? This puts extra requirements on management to be able to to manage their teams effectively. 

 
How large is your department? Coordinate with everyone to request consecutive weeks off throughout the year in a rolling fashion, so that one person from the department will always be off for a given week. Then schedule your vacations to coincide with whatever weeks you have off throughout the year :moneybag:

 
This is absolutely about a company looking to rid themselves of large PTO liabilities. The company I work for did this about a year ago but only for director level and above positions. They also did a one time PTO payout option at 85 cents on the dollar to lower their huge liability and bring some relief back to the bottom line. It has absolutely nothing to do with millennials. I'd hate to live under this policy myself. You'd feel guilty almost asking for PTO. Plus I think managers would hate trying to keep track of who was abusing the program and who should be taking more time off to not get burned out. Really dumb idea overall IMO.

 
I think it depends on the company. Most probably use it to exploit labor. I could see a few companies being great and staff taking plenty of time but still getting work done. 

 
Black Box said:
How large is your department? Coordinate with everyone to request consecutive weeks off throughout the year in a rolling fashion, so that one person from the department will always be off for a given week. Then schedule your vacations to coincide with whatever weeks you have off throughout the year :moneybag:
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There are only 4 of us supporting 15,000 users, 20+ servers and 10's of thousands of SharePoint sites.

For me it is difficult to plan out two of my vacations that I go on each year as they are to go to Canada with my cousin to his remote Cabin.
He is the CEO of his company so has to schedule around open times so I usually don't get things "set in stone" until a few months before the dates we go.

Up until now it's never been a problem... Just have to hope others don't jump on my weeks :rant:

 
cap'n grunge said:
This is absolutely about a company looking to rid themselves of large PTO liabilities. The company I work for did this about a year ago but only for director level and above positions. They also did a one time PTO payout option at 85 cents on the dollar to lower their huge liability and bring some relief back to the bottom line. It has absolutely nothing to do with millennials. I'd hate to live under this policy myself. You'd feel guilty almost asking for PTO. Plus I think managers would hate trying to keep track of who was abusing the program and who should be taking more time off to not get burned out. Really dumb idea overall IMO.
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That is where the "Oops" came from.. We had a team meeting this morning and our manager thought the original email had gone out to all and brought it up. The problem was the original email was that the change was only going to affect Manager level and above and that is who it was sent to.

But someone up the chain complained and so they have now decided to push it to all salaried employees. There was nothing in the email to talk about paying us for banked time.. Just that we will now all get "Sick Time" as a new "benefit" . :mellow:

 
snogger said:
Here is one

And a "Failure" Story

:oldunsure:
Click to expand...
The first one is interesting and completely opposite what I see in reality with young employees.  There is very little dedication and zero care about work when they are away.  I also don't see newer employees giving two chits about using all of their allotted vacation.  I can only think of one instance that I had to pay out more than a day or two from a departing employees.  Now my age group, 40 ish, this applies perfectly too .  I never use my full five weeks.  In fact I don't think that I have ever used all of my vacation since I have graduated college.  Sad now that I think about it.

 
sbonomo said:
snogger said:
Here is one

And a "Failure" Story

:oldunsure:
Click to expand...
The first one is interesting and completely opposite what I see in reality with young employees.  There is very little dedication and zero care about work when they are away.  I also don't see newer employees giving two chits about using all of their allotted vacation.  I can only think of one instance that I had to pay out more than a day or two from a departing employees.  Now my age group, 40 ish, this applies perfectly too .  I never use my full five weeks.  In fact I don't think that I have ever used all of my vacation since I have graduated college.  Sad now that I think about it.
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I turn 50 in December and can't recall ever being at "zero" hours.. Of course part of that was that I could bank the hours so it was a "Safety net" in case of a lay off. I tended to play the game of just staying below 200 hours from October to May by taking just enough days off each month to make sure I never lost hours, but was always close to 200 hours.

With this change I'm thinking a vacation this winter for the first time in years is on the schedule. So at least that is something good to come of it. :)

 
sbonomo said:
The first one is interesting and completely opposite what I see in reality with young employees.  There is very little dedication and zero care about work when they are away.  I also don't see newer employees giving two chits about using all of their allotted vacation.  I can only think of one instance that I had to pay out more than a day or two from a departing employees.  Now my age group, 40 ish, this applies perfectly too .  I never use my full five weeks.  In fact I don't think that I have ever used all of my vacation since I have graduated college.  Sad now that I think about it.
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Of course you and your age group are the perfect embodiment of the hard working employee!

 
snogger said:
Word slipped today from a manager( oops )  that our vacation policy is going to change soon to Approved "Unlimited" Vacation hours. For some that will sound exciting at first.. but it has it draw backs.

Right now I get 5 weeks of vacation a year and can "bank" up to 5 weeks( 200 hours). I only tend to take 2 or 3 one week vacations so I watch my banked hours and make sure to take a couple of days off each month to make sure I don't "lose" hours. Watching the amount of hours I have banked is a nice "push" to make me take a couple of days off a month to relax.

Also, if I leave the company or get laid off, I get paid for those banked hours. With this new policy there are no banked hours and therefore the company isn't on the hook to pay them if they lay you off or you leave. Smart on the companies part, but no "safety net" now. :kicksrock:

We are getting a new "benefit" added due to this policy change in that we will get 40 hours of sick time a year( there was no such thing as Sick time previously), that can accumulate to 80 if not used.
Problem is I can't recall the last time I called in sick. I work from home so sick is just another day, albeit maybe at a slower pace. Guess I'll have to start using them for even small things like allergies.

Anyone else have a "Unlimited" Policy that can give advice on how you are managing it to make sure you take the time off to avoid getting burned out??
Click to expand...
Yeah, my company did this a couple years ago. My understanding is new rules made it a requirement to fully fund the vacation and sick days people had banked. The money for those days had to be on the books, definitely being done to cut their liabilities 

 
From the articles I've read on this, most employees love the idea, but it almost always ends up benefiting the employer more than the employee.

 
Simple truth - anything done is not in the employees favor.  And yes, studies show that unlimited vacation translates into less vacation used. Those taking any vacation days are looked like freeloaders by other employees...who have no idea how many days have been used by that employee.  This leads to people not wanting to be considered a slacker so they don't use their days.  Days used actually tends to revert to zero.

 
xulf said:
Simple truth - anything done is not in the employees favor.  And yes, studies show that unlimited vacation translates into less vacation used. Those taking any vacation days are looked like freeloaders by other employees...who have no idea how many days have been used by that employee.  This leads to people not wanting to be considered a slacker so they don't use their days.  Days used actually tends to revert to zero.
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Only the employer no longer has to even pay you for unused days! It's a total win for the employer.

 
God I hope my company doesn't do this. I currently get 28 days a year. If they do implement this nonsense, Jobber will still take exactly 28 days a year.

 
snogger said:
We are getting a new "benefit" added due to this policy change in that we will get 40 hours of sick time a year( there was no such thing as Sick time previously), that can accumulate to 80 if not used.
Problem is I can't recall the last time I called in sick. I work from home so sick is just another day, albeit maybe at a slower pace. Guess I'll have to start using them for even small things like allergies.
Click to expand...
I highly recommend that you don't do this - they will likely be looking closely here for a while.  My place has fired people for "managing" their sick time (before we went to PTO).  I'd also keep an excel file of your vacation time and pretend like you have the same amount as previous.  Though it will be harder to take.

cap'n grunge said:
You'd feel guilty almost asking for PTO. 
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So I take my first vacation in a couple years and in my first manager's meeting back my boss noted that we didn't make money in the month "because it's hard to make money when there aren't folks here to charge to contracts".    I'm sure this crap would be worse if they scrapped PTO entirely.

 
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snogger said:
I turn 50 in December and can't recall ever being at "zero" hours.. Of course part of that was that I could bank the hours so it was a "Safety net" in case of a lay off.
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I always looked at that safety net for the possibility of a significant personal illness or a family illness, etc.  I never get below half my allotted maximum.

 
Jobber said:
God I hope my company doesn't do this. I currently get 28 days a year. If they do implement this nonsense, Jobber will still take exactly 28 days a year.
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If/when my company puts this in to effect I will send my boss my vacation schedule for the year taking exactly the number of days I currently have 23 (20+3 personal days).  I will then ask for additional days later in the year impromptu if/when I either want or feel like my projects allow it or if I'm stressed.  I've refused to not use my vacation days and won't be shamed in to doing so by this obvious ploy.  If my manager refuses to approve the days I ask for that early I'll go to HR about it.

 
Sand said:
I highly recommend that you don't do this.  My place has fired people for "managing" their sick time (before we went to PTO).  I'd also keep an excel file of your vacation time and pretend like you have the same amount as previous. 
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Completely agree on the 2nd as I just alluded to.  I'm confused on your first point - what do you mean by "managing" their sick time - you mean people that magically end up sick 10 days exactly when 10 are given?

 
AAABatteries said:
Completely agree on the 2nd as I just alluded to.  I'm confused on your first point - what do you mean by "managing" their sick time - you mean people that magically end up sick 10 days exactly when 10 are given?
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Yep - my company (rightfully, IMO) looked at that very dimly when someone pulled that stunt.  It was pretty obvious.  We have a very reasonable policy here and that was viewed as taking advantage of the system.

 
AAABatteries said:
Completely agree on the 2nd as I just alluded to.  I'm confused on your first point - what do you mean by "managing" their sick time - you mean people that magically end up sick 10 days exactly when 10 are given?
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Probably... I don't have any plans to take exactly 40 a year.. But won't hesitate to take a day off on those occasions that I just don't *cough feel good *cough ;)

 
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Sand said:
Yep - my company (rightfully, IMO) looked at that very dimly when someone pulled that stunt.  It was pretty obvious.  We have a very reasonable policy here and that was viewed as taking advantage of the system.
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Yeah, and I agree with that too - thankfully we only had one person in all my years that played loosely with the sick time - that person rightfully got canned.

 
Slapdash said:
It isn't a recourse.  Changing jobs is.
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Correct.. I almost let it slip that currently I'm not concerned about lay offs as I have at least 3 consulting companies offering me positions that pay 20-25k more then I am currently being paid.

But I have it good right now.. work from home, have free reign to do the work I want as long as my main responsibilities are done. Also, my manager doesn't micromanage me. As long as servers are running and tickets are taken care he is fine with whatever else I do. 8 years under his management has built enough trust that he trusts I'm doing what needs to be done. :thumbup:  

 
Players only meeting:

Ok everyone, EVERYONE is taking a lot of vacation.  Dont be the ####### that doesnt or we call the code red.

 
AAABatteries said:
For various reasons that wouldn't be an option - if they want to pay me to leave though......that is why I would go to HR.
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I wonder if these "unlimited vacation" policies are ultimately going to end up causing all sorts of legal fights over unemployment when employees are fired for "taking too much vacation" and they're taking the same amount as before. Would seem hard for a company to argue that they had true cause to fire you.

 
I know employment law generally ends up working against employees in that in the vast majority of states, employers can just get rid of you without any reason. But man, it is truly crappy for large companies to make compensation offers, hire you, and then radically change your compensation package like this.

I'm not typically a big supporter of unions, but these types of work practices are the types of things that modern unions would actually be useful for.

 
It beats the 2 weeks most people get. 

This is how I'd handle it if i were the OP:

"Hey I think that's great. I really prefer structure though so I'm just going to stick to my 5 weeks. Kthanxbye "

 
RUSF18 said:
Anything you've heard about "appeasing" millennials is BS you've been fed. This is done for two reasons: companies not needing to carry unused vacation time as liabilities, and because research shows people take less time off when they aren't allocated a specific amount.
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This.

 
I can see to an extent the benefit here of this system.  What would be the line between a vacation and a leave of absence? 

 
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