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***Official PSF Moderation Thread*** (4 Viewers)

jon_mx said:
Seems like we agree, but you want to imply an 'all' and took offense.  My language could have definitely been a bit more concise.  It is never easy when you talk in generalities especially when you talk left and right because everyone has a different concept what that means. 

I am not sure I would agree with some of the people you call right-leaning.  I would put IK for instance in the moderate camp as he has as many left-leaning positions as he does right-leaning.  I would also content that my statement was mostly true.  Generalizations are never 100 percent true.  It was true enough where it should not have been offensive.  If it needed a little parsing, say so.  I am not sure why it was reported.  There was no malice in my words. 

I have felt singled out over the years, but I am neither a Trump supporter nor far-right.   I would suggest my positions on most issues including things like spending, taxes, immigration, climate change are more moderate than they are right.  But my positions get intentionally distorted quite frequently.  Things put in quotes which are contrary to what I actually said.  That is becoming a pet peeve.  Just quote what I say, don't make stuff up.  
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I didn't report anything :oldunsure:  

Not "all", but easily "most" when you don't qualify it as you did.  And I certainly don't take offense.  Just because someone pushes back on something doesn't mean they are offended...perhaps that's part of the problem?  When one generalizes like that it typically means over half.  Your definitions seem to be skewed from their common uses if you don't think guys like IK aren't "right leaning".  It's on you to clarify that when you break from the norm.  This is another problem with this board.  The bastardization of various terms.  We frequently have people using common terms in not so common ways.  I will also contend that few are singled out over their views (unless WAY extreme).  There was a time where you and I had very similar views on several things.  I don't feel like I've ever been singled out over my views, but I don't take the same approach as you do either.  There are many factors at work here.

There are three things that will push my offense button immediately:

1.  My family

2.  The lackadaisical approach the "sides" take to this sexual assault stuff going on.

3.  The notion that we all start the race of life in the same place and have the same obstacles to clear.

Outside of that, good luck getting me worked up about anything.

 
The General said:
I read his other post this morning where he has you and me on a list of worthless trolls :lol:

Only poster I have put on the ignore list in 10 years.
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I happen to be on that list too but, really didn't give it much clout. Should I? Seriously, am I a worthless troll? If so, I'll take significant appropriate action to reverse that perception.

 
Bozeman Bruiser said:
That list is just the posters who don't engage on substance, and happen to disagree with me.

I could provide another list of posters who engage in substance and disagree with me.

Maurile, Henry, Sinn, Saints, Moleculo, Tim, Tobias, Joe, Ren, Commish, one of the Ditkas,  Koya, rockaction,  just off the top of my head.
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The fact that I made neither list, I’m not entirely sure how to feel about that.  Lol.  

 
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Ruffrodys05 said:
I happen to be on that list too but, really didn't give it much clout. Should I? Seriously, am I a worthless troll? If so, I'll take significant appropriate action to reverse that perception.
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I don’t really put much thought into this troll business. Not important to me. If you respond to questions I don’t really care what you have to say. It’s a message board. 

I rarely see on this site what I would consider totally worthless postings. I think that’s due to the moderation, they do an excellent job. I kind of enjoy the people who post the stuff I consider to be nuts. 

If you choose to make stuff up for whatever reason — you are dumb, you are trolling, whatever it may be — I don’t really care. I can decide if I want to engage.

 
The New Science of How to Argue—Constructively

I am not sure I would call this an interesting article - but it is topical.  It does not really address the issue, so much as simply identify the pitfalls of on-line arguments.

In the early days of the internet, way back in the 1990s, tech utopians envisioned a glittering digital future in which people from very different backgrounds could come together online and, if not reach consensus, at least learn something from one another. In the actual future we inhabit, things didn’t work out this way. The internet, especially social media, looks less like a dinner party and more like a riot. People talk past one another, and the discussion spirals down accordingly.

***

To the Swedish blogger John Nerst, online flame wars like those reveal a fundamental shift in how people debate public issues. Nerst and a nascent movement of other commentators online believe that the dynamics of today’s debates—especially the misunderstandings and bad-faith arguments that lead to the online flame wars—deserve to be studied on their own terms. “More and less sophisticated arguments and argumenters are mixed and with plenty of idea exchange between them,” Nerst explained in an email. “Add anonymity, and knowing people’s intentions becomes harder, knowing what they mean becomes harder.” Treating other people’s views with charity becomes harder, too, he said.

***

Erisology is the study of disagreement, specifically the study of unsuccessful disagreement. An unsuccessful disagreement is an exchange where people are no closer in understanding at the end than they were at the beginning, meaning the exchange has been mostly about talking past each other and/or hurling insults. A really unsuccessful one is where people actually push each other apart, and this seems disturbingly common.

 
Sinn Fein said:
The New Science of How to Argue—Constructively

I am not sure I would call this an interesting article - but it is topical.  It does not really address the issue, so much as simply identify the pitfalls of on-line arguments.

In the early days of the internet, way back in the 1990s, tech utopians envisioned a glittering digital future in which people from very different backgrounds could come together online and, if not reach consensus, at least learn something from one another. In the actual future we inhabit, things didn’t work out this way. The internet, especially social media, looks less like a dinner party and more like a riot. People talk past one another, and the discussion spirals down accordingly.

***

To the Swedish blogger John Nerst, online flame wars like those reveal a fundamental shift in how people debate public issues. Nerst and a nascent movement of other commentators online believe that the dynamics of today’s debates—especially the misunderstandings and bad-faith arguments that lead to the online flame wars—deserve to be studied on their own terms. “More and less sophisticated arguments and argumenters are mixed and with plenty of idea exchange between them,” Nerst explained in an email. “Add anonymity, and knowing people’s intentions becomes harder, knowing what they mean becomes harder.” Treating other people’s views with charity becomes harder, too, he said.

***

Erisology is the study of disagreement, specifically the study of unsuccessful disagreement. An unsuccessful disagreement is an exchange where people are no closer in understanding at the end than they were at the beginning, meaning the exchange has been mostly about talking past each other and/or hurling insults. A really unsuccessful one is where people actually push each other apart, and this seems disturbingly common.
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Agreed.

I think for me, the only answer I can see is moderation. I think that's the primary difference between a message board and something "open" like Twitter or Facebook. 

I don't know if it's the right answer. It obviously limits the number of people we have here and it kills hit count numbers. There's little traffic in civil discussion compared to letting things run wild. And it's an effort to have people to moderate as well as deal with the people who hate the moderation. So lots of reasons not to do it. 

The one reason we do it is we think it helps nudge the discussion back a little more toward what we think is good discussion. 

 
krista4 said:
In my more than 13 years here, I've dealt with some crap none of the constant complainers have, simply by virtue of being one of the only women participating.  One person who's never been anything less than supportive and kind to me, from day one, was Tanner.  And he did it without hitting on me - something many here haven't managed - or even acknowledging I was female or treating me differently in any way.  He's treated me with respect and as an equal, which is not unique to him but not entirely the norm either.  
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I know it's not the point of this post or thread but i just wanted to say that i do see you as different from the other posters here because you're a woman, but only as a curiosity.  I see your alleged breasts in the same way that i see gm's pale skin, although i've actually seen that skin and it's glorious.  Maybe more like how i see maurile differently because his fantasy football team name was maurile vanilli even though his name is pronounced moral or tanner differently because he's a celebrity.  It's an interesting attribute about you but not your defining characteristic. 

So the other day when you mentioned that you were the only pickle eater in your household and i asked "nobody?" I want you to know that it wasn't solely because of your gender and i'd have made a similar comment to anyone who either presumably liked pickles or explicitly stated that they did, and at no point was that intended as a slight or implied invitation. 

In conclusion, here is a cat gif.  https://i.imgur.com/ebxMteY.gifv

Not because you're a woman. I'm not hitting on you.  You just seem to like cat gifs. Any sexual attraction you may feel from this cat gif is entirely unintentional and a little unnerving tbh. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Agreed.

I think for me, the only answer I can see is moderation. ...

I don't know if it's the right answer. It obviously limits the number of people we have here and it kills hit count numbers. There's little traffic in civil discussion compared to letting things run wild. 
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Are you certain that’s true?  I know for myself that I wouldn’t come here if you just were “letting things run wild.”  Why do you assume it’s obvious that fewer people post here due to moderation?  

This is a genuine question, I don’t actually know whether you're right or wrong.  Maybe there’s some studies out there that make it obvious.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Are you certain that’s true?  I know for myself that I wouldn’t come here if you just were “letting things run wild.”  Why do you assume it’s obvious that fewer people post here due to moderation?  

This is a genuine question, I don’t actually know whether you're right or wrong.  Maybe there’s some studies out there that make it obvious.
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It could definitely lead to an overall increase in traffic while also chasing away higher quality posters. 

 
krista4 said:
To me, more broadly speaking, the single most important change that could be made is to deal with those who spend more of their time talking about other people than they do about issues.........A thought:  if you're speaking about another poster here in the third person, you're likely guilty of this.
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seems like this portion hit home....there's a shift to "they" "them" etc as the general vague label now....interesting.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Is it more manly to call other posters little girls? First via PM in the hopes of starting a slapfight and then via the board or maybe via facebook next since your jabs went ignored? Just trying to understand your scale. 

You want this to be personal, I get it. I don't need it to be personal, since after all my complaint is about the moderation. And you just confirmed the complaints I had. So thanks for that.  
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I sent you a legit PM with a legit question and you didn’t answer.  That’s pretty much it.  

I was honestly trying to see what happened with you.  

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Are you certain that’s true?  I know for myself that I wouldn’t come here if you just were “letting things run wild.”  Why do you assume it’s obvious that fewer people post here due to moderation?  

This is a genuine question, I don’t actually know whether you're right or wrong.  Maybe there’s some studies out there that make it obvious.
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Oh I'm not certain of much of anything with this board @fatguyinalittlecoat   

It's just my feeling based on the posts and messages I get about moderation. 

And I see how popular some of the boards like reddit or 4chan are with little to no moderation. And just comments in general on youtube and twitter. 

I'm 100% in agreement with you the way we moderate is a huge plus for some people. 

My guess is our moderation probably though drives more people away than it pulls in. Just a guess though.

The truth is I don't really care. Because I'm not looking for a board with the most people. 

I'm looking for a board I want to be part of. 

I learned this in the first year we had a board. 20 years ago when message board etiquette was still being defined, I had a good friend of mine post something in our Shark Pool. He's now a nationally known guy. Super knowledgeable. He posted a long and detailed post almost like an article. It was great information.

The first response was a troll looking for nothing than to high five his buddies and posted something like "you suck".

My friend quickly saw this wasn't worth his time. And never posted again. 

The reality is the Shark Pool lost what could have been a great resource. 

Now one can call my friend thin skinned or too sensitive. Doesn't really matter. The bottom line is the board lost a great resource because one guy was a tool. 

From then on, I've always realized how important it is to have good posters here and the best way to do that is create an environment where they want to be. 

For me, that means trying to moderate things so we try as best we can to be excellent to each other. 

 
sho nuff said:
I thought I was by keeping the whining about moderation out of the Trump thread.  Trying to end the back and forth in there were people were accused of trolling for having legitimate discussion. 
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Maybe start with policing yourself?

You just reminded me why you aren’t worth the effort now or ever.  No need to respond, I won’t read it, you are not capable of having a reasonable discussion and I won’t  waste my time with that.
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
@Don't Noonanto use an LOD expression, that was a rather unmanly maneuver you just pulled to hide behind Joe's skirt like that. I'll stick on 21 and leave it at that.
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Pointing out lies in thread titles that insinuate the President of the United States conspired with Russia after Mueller report shows the opposite is unmanly?  Sorry, I don't appreciate your crying about this and I see the trolls bucky and scooter happily liked your misguided post.

 
sho nuff said:
I thought I was by keeping the whining about moderation out of the Trump thread.  Trying to end the back and forth in there were people were accused of trolling for having legitimate discussion. 
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Yes, let's not talk about moderation in the Official PSF Moderation Thread.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Pointing out lies in thread titles that insinuate the President of the United States conspired with Russia after Mueller report shows the opposite is unmanly?  Sorry, I don't appreciate your crying about this and I see the trolls bucky and scooter happily liked your misguided post.
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None of us appreciate your childish behavior. You don't engage in good faith conversation,  you post fallacies consistently, you treat others poorly and you whine to the mods at every opportunity. These traits are not even exclusive to the PF.

That you have the audacity to call out ANYONE else on this board for their behavior is just continuing proof of your inability to conduct yourself in a manner that will benefit the community. 

@Joe BryantI don't believe I've ever addressed you directly in the 17+ years I've been a member/ subscriber here. I've never reported anyone or put anyone on ignore and I've never received so much as a warning,  let alone a suspension. You're a busy guy that doesn't have time to follow individual posters and their content. I respect that. I like this place, always have. But this poster is a perfect example of the things you claim you don't want on your board. And you're allowing him to dictate what goes on, to the detriment not only of discourse,  but the enjoyment of a majority of members. Changing thread titles has always been a part of this place.  Are you going to tell @Capellathat he can no longer make jokes with the NBA thread title? That would be a net loss for these boards, IMO.

Thank you for your time and hearing me out, and for your efforts to improve our experiences here.

 
Herb said:
None of us appreciate your childish behavior. You don't engage in good faith conversation,  you post fallacies consistently, you treat others poorly and you whine to the mods at every opportunity. These traits are not even exclusive to the PF.

That you have the audacity to call out ANYONE else on this board for their behavior is just continuing proof of your inability to conduct yourself in a manner that will benefit the community. 

@Joe BryantI don't believe I've ever addressed you directly in the 17+ years I've been a member/ subscriber here. I've never reported anyone or put anyone on ignore and I've never received so much as a warning,  let alone a suspension. You're a busy guy that doesn't have time to follow individual posters and their content. I respect that. I like this place, always have. But this poster is a perfect example of the things you claim you don't want on your board. And you're allowing him to dictate what goes on, to the detriment not only of discourse,  but the enjoyment of a majority of members. Changing thread titles has always been a part of this place.  Are you going to tell @Capellathat he can no longer make jokes with the NBA thread title? That would be a net loss for these boards, IMO.

Thank you for your time and hearing me out, and for your efforts to improve our experiences here.
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Thanks for being here so long! And for sure, not reporting posters isn't a good thing though. We need that. Very often it's the only way we see something that's over the line. So please report things over the line. And yes, Cappella and I talked about the title thing a good while back and he dialed it back some. It's more a guideline. I just very much prefer targeted threads vs rotating titles that don't match up with the vast majority of the pages in the thread. Way better in my opinion to have targeted threads. 

Looks like the noonan poster you referenced has been suspended twice lately. He's dictating absolutely nothing. The moderators will see if he can continue posting here. Thanks for being part of the boards.

 
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Slapdash said:
FWIW, this did happen briefly .  I think Joe and Cappy agreed to keep it less on the trolling/insulting side.
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Yes. It was about the college football thread which tends to be.....meaner. Never had any issues with the NBA one. 

 
Herb said:
None of us appreciate your childish behavior. You don't engage in good faith conversation,  you post fallacies consistently, you treat others poorly and you whine to the mods at every opportunity. These traits are not even exclusive to the PF.

That you have the audacity to call out ANYONE else on this board for their behavior is just continuing proof of your inability to conduct yourself in a manner that will benefit the community. 

@Joe BryantI don't believe I've ever addressed you directly in the 17+ years I've been a member/ subscriber here. I've never reported anyone or put anyone on ignore and I've never received so much as a warning,  let alone a suspension. You're a busy guy that doesn't have time to follow individual posters and their content. I respect that. I like this place, always have. But this poster is a perfect example of the things you claim you don't want on your board. And you're allowing him to dictate what goes on, to the detriment not only of discourse,  but the enjoyment of a majority of members. Changing thread titles has always been a part of this place.  Are you going to tell @Capellathat he can no longer make jokes with the NBA thread title? That would be a net loss for these boards, IMO.

Thank you for your time and hearing me out, and for your efforts to improve our experiences here.
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Nope, I treat others how they treat me.  I have been a subscriber for as long as you have.  Pointing out flat out lies to Joe seems like something weird to get bent out of shape over.  I posted about this to @whoknew a few days ago and asked him to change it and he refused.  If he would have simply changed it he would still have the ability to make changes to titles.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
Slapdash said:
FWIW, this did happen briefly .  I think Joe and Cappy agreed to keep it less on the trolling/insulting side.
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Yes. Thanks. 
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Just to be clear, WhoKnew's thread titles have not been on the trolling insulting side, at all.

The guy has been the model of moderation even taking requests from Trump critics. He's a cool guy online and more than fair.

It's provided news updates and kept the title in line with current events. I'm not lobbying, just keeping the record straight.

Joe I know you've got work-work to do, seriously not bothering you about this, just getting it down.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Nope, I treat others how they treat me.  I have been a subscriber for as long as you have.  Pointing out flat out lies to Joe seems like something weird to get bent out of shape over.  
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I don't put people on ignore, and your little games aren't going to make me change that. I have no problem being respectful to you or engaging you elsewhere,  but if you'd like to put me on ignore or not respond to me ever again in the PF then I would be amenable to that arrangement.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Nope, I treat others how they treat me.  I have been a subscriber for as long as you have.  Pointing out flat out lies to Joe seems like something weird to get bent out of shape over.  I posted about this to @whoknew a few days ago and asked him to change it and he refused.  If he would have simply changed it he would still have the ability to make changes to titles.  
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What's that opinion based on?

 
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