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timschochet

California will soon be the world's 5th largest economy.

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http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article161472333.html

And this despite all of our socialist policies and sanctuary cities! Time for Calexit? We'd be fine on our own, without having to deal with the rest of you, with your anti-immigrant xenophobia, ignorant Trumpian anti-trade economics, and cheating SEC college football.

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

How would California pay for their defense?

 

Just now, Cowboysfan8 said:

 pay the illegals crappy wages to do all the hard work

 

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3 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

How would California pay for their defense?

California pays 12% of all federal taxes. Let us keep that, and I think we'll do just fine, thank you. The question if we leave is, how will YOU pay for your defense?

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You guy are a mismanaged disaster. How much debt do you have now? Only the USA can go on indefinable racking up debt.

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Good luck running agriculture for export with no water

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7 minutes ago, msommer said:

Good luck running agriculture for export with no water

No more drought in CA.

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I feel if California and NY decide to break off what would be left wouldn't be much to brag about. 

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California benefits from great geography and weather. But they're also the #1 state for patents. So, it's more than just luck. They have the top public universities in the country, not to mention Stanford and Caltech.

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Just now, NREC34 said:

I feel if California and NY decide to break off what would be left wouldn't be much to brag about. 

Massachusetts would join them, with its great healthcare system and the highest GDP per capita.

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These fantasies are silly imo.  Let's ignore the worldwide catastrophe of the USA breaking up, but California would then be a wealthy pacifist country without a major defense treaty.  It wouldn't last long.

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11 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

California benefits from great geography and weather. But they're also the #1 state for patents. So, it's more than just luck. They have the top public universities in the country, not to mention Stanford and Caltech.

You might see all those small northeast states go together if it ever happened. I would definitely want to try to immigrate there if it did. The way what would be left would be ran is a scary thought indeed. 

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These threads always trigger conservatives.

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48 minutes ago, lod001 said:

You guy are a mismanaged disaster. How much debt do you have now? Only the USA can go on indefinable racking up debt.

Again, if we paid no federal taxes, our debt would disappear overnight.

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44 minutes ago, msommer said:

Good luck running agriculture for export with no water

We'll take Arizona with us. Nevada, maybe New Mexico and Oregon. They'd all become provinces in the new "Greater California". They'd be happy enough to go.

We might absorb Mexico too. Why not?

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29 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

These fantasies are silly imo.  Let's ignore the worldwide catastrophe of the USA breaking up, but California would then be a wealthy pacifist country without a major defense treaty.  It wouldn't last long.

We have nuclear weapons plus the leading cyber people in the world. We are trading partners with most of the world's nations. We wouldn't need a defense treaty- though if we wanted it would certainly be easy to get one.

Make no mistake- this is not the Confederacy in 1860. They were a bunch of agricultural states who left most of the heavy industry they relied on behind. They had no chance of staying out of the Union, and the only reason it took nearly 5 years to force them back in is because they had a lot of very smart military people who succeeded, for a time, against the odds. California is totally different. If we left, we take the industry with us. We could not be forced back in.

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44 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

California benefits from great geography and weather. But they're also the #1 state for patents. So, it's more than just luck. They have the top public universities in the country, not to mention Stanford and Caltech.

More people apply to UCLA than any other university on Earth. Over 100,000 a year! I learned this to my chagrin when we toured the campus last week (my oldest daughter is about to be a high school senior.)

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BTW, here's how my daughter ranks the schools she is applying to, in terms of her preference:

1. UC San Diego & UC Santa Barbara

2. UCLA and UC Berkeley

3. UC Irvine (my alma mater).

4. Chapman University

5. Cal State Fullerton

6. Cal State Long Beach.

She's applying to all 8; we'll see who accepts her...

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We have nuclear weapons plus the leading cyber people in the world. We are trading partners with most of the world's nations. We wouldn't need a defense treaty- though if we wanted it would certainly be easy to get one.

Make no mistake- this is not the Confederacy in 1860. They were a bunch of agricultural states who left most of the heavy industry they relied on behind. They had no chance of staying out of the Union, and the only reason it took nearly 5 years to force them back in is because they had a lot of very smart military people who succeeded, for a time, against the odds. California is totally different. If we left, we take the industry with us. We could not be forced back in.

Cmon Tim.  California has no nuclear weapons.  The United States DOE has some, and provided California left amicably (lol) then the US taking their nukes back would probably be #1 on that agreement.  NATO isn't going to sign a defense treaty with a country that isn't logistically defensible and what's left of the US would punish California for signing with any Asian country/countries.  Central and South America aren't worth mentioning.  I'll just let you continue with your fantasy here though.  I prefer the fantasy where the rubes become enlightened and the country unifies, but that's just me.

Edited by Dedfin
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20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We'll take Arizona with us. Nevada, maybe New Mexico and Oregon. They'd all become provinces in the new "Greater California". They'd be happy enough to go.

We might absorb Mexico too. Why not?

I feel that Oregon and Washington would be begging to go with you. Nevada and Arizona maybe not. Not sure why you'd want Mexico but I could see them doing it as a big FU to Trump. 

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Great state, wish Bay Area was cheaper/had better housing policy though

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28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We have nuclear weapons plus the leading cyber people in the world. We are trading partners with most of the world's nations. We wouldn't need a defense treaty- though if we wanted it would certainly be easy to get one.

Make no mistake- this is not the Confederacy in 1860. They were a bunch of agricultural states who left most of the heavy industry they relied on behind. They had no chance of staying out of the Union, and the only reason it took nearly 5 years to force them back in is because they had a lot of very smart military people who succeeded, for a time, against the odds. California is totally different. If we left, we take the industry with us. We could not be forced back in.

California has nuclear weapons?  I knew there were nuclear weapons owned by the feds cited there, but their own nukes?

I'm wondering, though they are an agricultural power their economy is not dependent upon agriculture, but would that dry up fast if the calls on the  flows from the Colorado River, then not dependent on current compacts which would be voided, wouldn't decimate the agricultural industry.

I wonder whether the booming business at California ports might, in part, move elsewhere for direct import and export with the U.S.

I wonder the effect on the tourism industry if visiting California meant crossing an international border.

My impression is that the State has a nearly unbearable welfare role, and growing.

How much of the land inside California is actually federal land and not California land and what would be the effects of transactions to consolidate the land inside their current border.

I suspect much of the business climate in California benefits from not being foreign business as far as the U.S. is concerned, but what do I know, it may well be a benefit to be "off shore" for tax purposes. 

I think much of the aerospace and defense industries there might have harsh times ahead.  Seems to me the U.S. has some strong preferences for U.S. manufacture of many critical systems.  Defense and ship building may move.

Whose waters would be off of the coast, U.S. or California?  Whose fisheries would be out there?

Certainly the country of California would lose some of its air traffic.  On the way to Hawaii, or the Pacific Rim who wants to add another international stop. I'm guessing Phoenix, Portland and Seattle would greatly benefit.

No matter.  If California wants to go it on their own I say more power to them. I am open to social experiments and States rights.  Maybe we could learn something valuable that would help the rest of the world.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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California has money, schools, people, and ingenuity aplenty to become its own thriving country, with only one small missing ingredient it needs to get from the United States, Tim. 

Water. 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Time for Calexit?

I wish you wouldn't do this. You're as bad as the States Righters who live in old glory days when you do. We're one country, defend and love the Union please.

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Can we just kick out Kentucky and Mississippi?

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2 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Turns out California only owns about half of its land.  45% still belongs to the feds.

Lots of tribal lands and military bases. 

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Just now, Bucky86 said:

Can we just kick out Kentucky and Mississippi?

No.  Kentucky has some amazing natural wonders and women with loose morals.  And Mississippi makes Louisiana not feel as terrible about itself. 

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38 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We'll take Arizona with us. Nevada, maybe New Mexico and Oregon. They'd all become provinces in the new "Greater California". They'd be happy enough to go.

We might absorb Mexico too. Why not?

Good luck with that

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39 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We'll take Arizona with us. Nevada, maybe New Mexico and Oregon. They'd all become provinces in the new "Greater California". They'd be happy enough to go.

We might absorb Mexico too. Why not?

Brilliant.  Solve your water crisis by absorbing Arizona.  

Also, you think Arizona will politically join with California?

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

No.  Kentucky has some amazing natural wonders and women with loose morals.  And Mississippi makes Louisiana not feel as terrible about itself. 

Fine. Then Arkansas goes.

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40 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We'll take Arizona with us. Nevada, maybe New Mexico and Oregon. They'd all become provinces in the new "Greater California". They'd be happy enough to go.

We might absorb Mexico too. Why not?

Wait, I thought California was a go all by itself, now it wants help.  Is it not a self contained entity?

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

Fine. Then Arkansas goes.

Tough, but fair. 

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This will help with Geopolitics.  North Korean Missiles capable of reaching California would no longer concern the U.S.  Of course we still have the problem of their reach to Washington and Oregon.  No worries I suppose.  The new country of California could always join a mutual defense pact with Mexico. 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:
2 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

How would California pay for their defense?

California pays 12% of all federal taxes. Let us keep that, and I think we'll do just fine, thank you.

 

22 minutes ago, timschochet said:
1 hour ago, lod001 said:

You guy are a mismanaged disaster. How much debt do you have now? Only the USA can go on indefinable racking up debt.

Again, if we paid no federal taxes, our debt would disappear overnight.

 

You can't have this both ways. The 12% of federal taxes currently paid by CA would have to be used to make up for all of the federal funding they would lose. A 2015 state-by-state review compiled by New York officials said CA received about 99 cents in federal services for every real dollar in taxes, essentially breaking even. So CA's debt problem would remain. And, given the liberal leadership of the state, it would probably get worse over time as its leaders would continue to outspend their revenue base.

But there are many other important factors here that would make Calexit a losing proposition. For example, the US DoD currently has about 270K employees in California, and DoD spending represents about 2.1% of CA's GDP. Add another ~150K US Federal government employees plus ~65K US Postal Service employees. If Calexit happened and was to remain permanent, many of those defense contractors would relocate, and the US government would eliminate or move most of its jobs to other states. Those would be negative impacts to CA GDP, unemployment, and tax base.

Similarly, many US citizens would prefer to remain US citizens and would move out of state. That is definitely true for my family, which lives in San Diego. I would guess that at least 10% of citizens and companies would leave, but it could be much higher. I doubt the new CA economy could withstand that.

But those issues are probably moot. If CA pulled an exit, I expect the US would simply invade and occupy California. The ports, military installations/locations, agriculture, etc. are too valuable to give up. So CA would become an occupied territory with no voting rights or influence on the US. In the big picture, that might be a solid outcome...

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6 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

No.  Kentucky has some amazing natural wonders and women with loose morals.  And Mississippi makes Louisiana not feel as terrible about itself. 

Let's not forget they make a lot of bourbon 

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Real downside for Trump here though.  That wall would now have to cover this new border.  Of course, in this instance we might actually get the foreign country to pay since they apparently want little to nothing to do with the rest of us.

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1 minute ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

This will help with Geopolitics.  North Korean Missiles capable of reaching California would no longer concern the U.S.  Of course we still have the problem of their reach to Washington and Oregon.  No worries I suppose.  The new country of California could always join a mutual defense pact with Mexico. 

If they are allowed to take federal lands with them, I propose a rental fee equal to roughly 12% of our tax revenue. 

On a more serious note, this must not be allowed to happen.  The division of Yosemite would separate bears from their families and create a bear-itarian crisis not seen in hundreds of years. 

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

If they are allowed to take federal lands with them, I propose a rental fee equal to roughly 12% of our tax revenue. 

On a more serious note, this must not be allowed to happen.  The division of Yosemite would separate bears from their families and create a bear-itarian crisis not seen in hundreds of years. 

I like bears.

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Certainly going to complicate travel by sports teams.  On the bright side the NFL will finally have those international franchises it has been wanting.

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29 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I wish you wouldn't do this. You're as bad as the States Righters who live in old glory days when you do. We're one country, defend and love the Union please.

I don't believe in the right to secede. And in truth, I don't believe in Calexit.

I just want people to acknowledge our greatness!

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7 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Certainly going to complicate travel by sports teams.  On the bright side the NFL will finally have those international franchises it has been wanting.

We'll stay in the pro leagues, but our teams get first draft rights to all local talent.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don't believe in the right to secede. And in truth, I don't believe in Calexit.

I just want people to acknowledge our greatness!

I know you're joking, but I have the great fortune of living in a place that knows how unfunny that whole business is, and some people do take it seriously after all, too many.

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2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I know you're joking, but I have the great fortune of living in a place that knows how unfunny that whole business is, and some people do take it seriously after all, too many.

If California and New York form a new union, is there any way that we can annex New Orleans, but leave the rest of the state behind?

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Just now, timschochet said:

If California and New York form a new union, is there any way that we can annex New Orleans, but leave the rest of the state behind?

Ha, we'd be better fit if annexed by Haiti or Cuba, amigo.

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42 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Turns out California only owns about half of its land.  45% still belongs to the feds.

In the spirit of compromise, we will surrender most of that land, along with the cities of  Bakersfield and Fresno, so long as we maintain control of the agriculture and highways.

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