Short Corner
Footballguy
Haven't some been required to be sterilized as a prerequisite for citizenship?timschochet said:
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Palestine (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ren hoek
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
I’ve never heard or read that anywhere. If it’s true it’s terrible naturally, but I find it hard to believe.
timschochet
Footballguy
Awful. Racist. And probably true since it comes from Ha’aretz.
I can’t tell you how much I dislike this current government in Israel. For one thing they are deeply religious, almost fanatically so. The original founders of the Jewish state were all secularist Jews, many of them atheist. Their inheritors are the Labor Party of Israel.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
Fair enough. Like I said, the tone about Gaza just seemed completely flippant then vs. now. And it is being beaten into conformity. The Israel lobby wields arguably the most powerful influence in Washington. There's an antisemitism smear campaign being lobbed at Jeremy Corbyn, and it will certainly make its way here the minute a politician starts talking out of line about Israel.Henry Ford said:
ren hoek
Footballguy
1. Isn't that in effect a Jewish-only state though? Palestinians living in Israel can't even walk the same roads as Jews in many cases. They spend a sizable portion of their lives wading through military checkpoints and getting badgered by IDF soldiers. They have to drive with different-colored license plates. It's blatant supremacy.timschochet said:
2. I don't think the Labor Party in Israel is a good faith actor like you make it sound. Liberal Zionism is still Zionism.
3. How would allowing Palestinians to migrate into Israel effectively destroy the state of Israel? It seems like you believe in open borders and want the US to welcome refugees. Isn't there a moral obligation to help displaced/impoverished people there just like in Syria? Why wouldn't the same standard apply to displaced Palestinians?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
To the contrary. A legislator making pronouncements like the one you wanted seems more flippant than being careful with words. I’m trying to give the issue the gravitas it deserves.
Dedfin
Footballguy
Yeah that's a good point Henry thanks for asking. I have to plead ignorance of all the terrible things that's been happening in Gaza. I do know it's more or less the largest open-air prison in the world. And they've been cut off from the rest of the planet from humanitarian resources.
I guess to address your specific question, as I had in mind of millions of cotizens of Gaza being killed systematically by Isreal.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Let’s be clear. This is not good. Prompted about her use of the word “massacre,” Ocasio-Cortez doesn’t stay with the experience of the Palestinians. Instead, she goes immediately to an affirmation of Israel’s right to exist, as if Israelis were the first order of concern here, and affirming that right were the necessary ticket to saying anything about Palestine. Asked about her use of the phrase “occupation of Palestine,” Ocasio-Cortez wanders into a thicket of abstractions about access to housing and “settlements that are increasing in some of these areas.” She apologizes for not being an expert on a major geopolitical issue. She proffers liberal platitudes about a two-state solution that everyone familiar with the subject knows are just words and clichés designed to defer any genuine reckoning with the situation at hand, with no concrete discussion of anything the US could or should do to intervene.
Even within the constraints of American electoral politics, there are better ways — better left ways — to deal with this entirely foreseeable question. Not only was this a bad moment for the Left but it was also a lost opportunity: to speak to people who are not leftists about a major issue in a way that sounds credible, moral, and politically wise.
There are some of us, many of us, who care deeply about the Israel/Palestine issue from an anti-Zionist perspective and who are also realistic about US electoral politics. We’re not naïfs who think that the politicians we support are going to come out right away, or right now, in support of a single binational democratic state, which is the position we hold with regard to Palestine. We also realize that the Left that is beginning to think about electoral politics is young (not in terms of age but political experience), and it will take us all some time to figure out how to advance our positions in a way that will win support and translate that support into policy.
And last, we know that despite the centrality of Palestine to our politics, it’s not central to the politics of everyone on the Left, that people have multiple concerns, and that it does no good simply to hector people and say this should be at the top of your list (along with a thousand other issues that should be at the top of your list).
I know all of that, we know all of that.
But we also know a few other things.
Sooner or later, every national politician in the US has to confront the issue of Palestine. You can’t duck it. Not only is the Left moving left on this issue, not only is the base of the Democratic Party moving left on this issue (it is, if you look at the polling), but it is also a major issue of international politics and US foreign policy that every member of Congress has to have a position on.
Palestine is not some obscure question that you can simply say, “Sorry, I don’t know much about that.” Any person who aspires to be a member of Congress, particularly from New York City, where this issue comes up as a local, national, and international issue all the time — when we had the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions fight at Brooklyn College in 2013, our top opponents included multiple members of the New York City congressional delegation: Jerry Nadler, Yvette Clark, Nydia Velazquez, and Hakeem Jeffries — will have to be clear about where they stand. It’s not optional: Ocasio-Cortez has to have a position.
So, again, this isn’t about Palestine only. Or I should say, Palestine is the proverbial canary in a coal mine. From Palestine you get into the question of the Middle East as a whole, which leads to US foreign policy as a whole, and issues of budgets, spending, war, peace, and all the rest. All the more reason for Ocasio-Cortez to get up to speed on it.
Like it or not, Ocasio-Cortez has been elevated to a national position of leadership and visibility on the Left. If she wins in the general election, as everyone believes she will, every single thing she says and does will be watched and scrutinized. It simply will not do to say, oh, she’s only twenty-eight, oh, the media is so nasty, oh, let’s not have circular firing squads. The media is always nasty, the Left will always be critical of its leaders, and one day, soon, Ocasio-Cortez will no longer be twenty-eight. To complain about any of these things is like shaking your fist at the weather.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/07/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-israel-palestine-occupation
Even within the constraints of American electoral politics, there are better ways — better left ways — to deal with this entirely foreseeable question. Not only was this a bad moment for the Left but it was also a lost opportunity: to speak to people who are not leftists about a major issue in a way that sounds credible, moral, and politically wise.
There are some of us, many of us, who care deeply about the Israel/Palestine issue from an anti-Zionist perspective and who are also realistic about US electoral politics. We’re not naïfs who think that the politicians we support are going to come out right away, or right now, in support of a single binational democratic state, which is the position we hold with regard to Palestine. We also realize that the Left that is beginning to think about electoral politics is young (not in terms of age but political experience), and it will take us all some time to figure out how to advance our positions in a way that will win support and translate that support into policy.
And last, we know that despite the centrality of Palestine to our politics, it’s not central to the politics of everyone on the Left, that people have multiple concerns, and that it does no good simply to hector people and say this should be at the top of your list (along with a thousand other issues that should be at the top of your list).
I know all of that, we know all of that.
But we also know a few other things.
Sooner or later, every national politician in the US has to confront the issue of Palestine. You can’t duck it. Not only is the Left moving left on this issue, not only is the base of the Democratic Party moving left on this issue (it is, if you look at the polling), but it is also a major issue of international politics and US foreign policy that every member of Congress has to have a position on.
Palestine is not some obscure question that you can simply say, “Sorry, I don’t know much about that.” Any person who aspires to be a member of Congress, particularly from New York City, where this issue comes up as a local, national, and international issue all the time — when we had the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions fight at Brooklyn College in 2013, our top opponents included multiple members of the New York City congressional delegation: Jerry Nadler, Yvette Clark, Nydia Velazquez, and Hakeem Jeffries — will have to be clear about where they stand. It’s not optional: Ocasio-Cortez has to have a position.
So, again, this isn’t about Palestine only. Or I should say, Palestine is the proverbial canary in a coal mine. From Palestine you get into the question of the Middle East as a whole, which leads to US foreign policy as a whole, and issues of budgets, spending, war, peace, and all the rest. All the more reason for Ocasio-Cortez to get up to speed on it.
Like it or not, Ocasio-Cortez has been elevated to a national position of leadership and visibility on the Left. If she wins in the general election, as everyone believes she will, every single thing she says and does will be watched and scrutinized. It simply will not do to say, oh, she’s only twenty-eight, oh, the media is so nasty, oh, let’s not have circular firing squads. The media is always nasty, the Left will always be critical of its leaders, and one day, soon, Ocasio-Cortez will no longer be twenty-eight. To complain about any of these things is like shaking your fist at the weather.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/07/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-israel-palestine-occupation
timschochet
Footballguy
I believe that the United States should take in as many refugees as we can, but they should be vetted, and we should avoid taking in any refugees committed to our destruction. For Israel, which compared to us is a tiny state, that would include the vast majority of Palestinians who would prefer to see the Jewish state eradicated.
But I suspect that you know this and that your question was disingenuous.
ren hoek
Footballguy
No, I was asking you honestly. This doesn't hold much water. It's well documented that there are extremists in that part of the world with an existential hatred for the US. Whether or not some of it is warranted (I think much of it is) might be up for debate, but there's no doubting there are in fact jihadists 'committed to our destruction'.
And the reason I bring that up is, what makes the US so capable of vetting these refugees in a way that is safe that Israel couldn't do themselves? Your depiction of Palestinians is completely identical to white nationalists in the US that scapegoat all Muslims as would-be terrorists.
The impression I get from Palestinians in general is that they are peaceful, have tried to employ every means of nonviolent resistance they know of, and just want basic human rights. Like clean drinking water and more than 4 hours of electricity a day. This caricature of them is actually appalling.
timschochet
Footballguy
With regard to the bolded, that's 100% false. My concern would not be Palestinians being terrorists. My concern is based on 3 facts:
1. The population of Israel is 8.4 million. Roughly 6.8 million are Jews, and 1.6 million are Muslims.
2. There are 6 million Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank, and the rest of the Middle East.
3. The vast majority of Palestinians believe that state of Israel should not exist.
Now, using your analogy: the United States has 320 million people. If you proposed allowing 300 million new people to come here, and the vast majority of them were committed to the destruction of the United States, I would say no. And that does not make me the equivalent of a white nationalist. Sorry.
ren hoek
Footballguy
When you say the vast majority of Palestinians believe Israel should not exist, what do you mean? That they want it physically, violently destroyed? Or some sort of redefining of its makeup? I'm not sure I follow.
Should Israel be free, open, and democratic, with equal rights for all of its citizens, or should it not? Because if it should, why would it matter what ethnicity the refugees it takes in are? It seems like you give the benefit of the doubt to Syrian refugees, who you presume to just want a normal life, but not Palestinians, who you think want to destroy Israel.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well, I’ve tried to explain the difference to you between the two examples in a very clear way. You won’t accept it. We’ll just have to disagree at this point.
ren hoek
Footballguy
The explanation hinges on a belief that too much of a certain race/ethnicity existing in Israel will destroy it. Not violently, just some other way you can't seem to explain.
shadrap
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
According to many, pushing the Palestinians into what some of these people consider to be concentration camps and treating them (according to this theory) roughly how we treated the Native Americans has been somewhat racist.
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shadrap
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think that’s a pretty strong claim. Stronger than what I’m willing to say. Did Israel come in and take Palestinian land given to Israel by the other nations of the world who didn’t really own it, including their holy city, and force out an entire ethnic population? Yeah. Have they then walled that population into a rather small area with insufficient resources and infrastructure and then created settlements in the areas they still wanted to lay claim to? Yeah. Are those “concentration camps”? Is it racist? Is Israel in the wrong if I had to pick one party? I haven’t made up my mind fully on those I guess. I think it’s a very complex situation that I do appreciate not being in charge of.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The usual cited proposition is the fact that they’ve been forced out of their ancestral land onto kind of a reservation with poor resources and infrastructure and when they protest Israel kills a bunch of their protesting citizens including children.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Some of your takes here are a bit off, or lacking context. Multiple states in the region were arbitrarily created, not just Israel. Islam has multiple holy cities - the most important being Mecca. Jerusalem is the only holy city for Judaism - and was so before Islam existed. Palestinians were not kicked out on creation of Israel - many still do in fact live there.
How exactly have the Israelis "walled in" anyone in Gaza - a region that shares a border with Egypt and possess a lengthy coast line?
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Well, it’s hard to live in the water, Israel built a wall, and the US helped Egypt build a giant steel barrier.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Is there a counter-opinion that Palestinians were not forced off of their ancestral land and that there are sufficient resources and infrastructure in Gaza?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Not your best work. Israel enforces their border. They haven't blockaded Gaza as far as I know*, and they are not responsible for what Egypt does with their border to Gaza. Characterizing that situation as "walling in" or "concentration camp" is disingenuous.
*They have blockaded Gaza. I was wrong about this.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
You're making the assertions - I'm asking you for evidence to support them.
Also - define ancestral land - what were the boundaries? Who established them? When were they established? Were there other people also living in the area at the time that could also call them ancestral?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
So if Gaza were part of an ongoing blockade since, I don’t know, some crazy year like 2007, that would be a different situation?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
If you’d like to read up on the history of Palestine and Israel, you’re welcome to do so. There’s a great deal of information out there.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I'm aware of that history. It doesn't seem you are though. Again, you're making some pretty inflammatory claims, I'm asking you for supporting evidence of them. You don't seem to want to provide any and are engaging in deflection. Why?
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
You’re not aware that Gaza has been under a blockade since 2007. You’re talking about maybe the most complex geopolitical scenario in the world, one which I haven’t fully made my mind up on yet as I’ve repeatedly stated, and I don’t think I can fully support an argument I don’t fully subscribe to at this point. In any event, if you don’t know what’s happening now I can’t possibly explain everything for the last 200 or 2000 years even to the extent I have made up my mind.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Tell me about the blockade - why was it instituted? Do the conditions that led to its implementation still exist? Was the reasoning behind the blockade faulty? Is it solely enforced by Israel? If not, why not?
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
I understand that my opinions or lack of opinions on these issues really bothers you. And that perhaps you now regret saying you weren’t aware of the blockade. I’m sorry that’s the case, and that a constant barrage of questions rather than answering the ones I’ve posed to you or simply discussing the issue like you’ve met someone still able to form new opinions on the issues seems like a better path.
timschochet
Footballguy
1. Yes. But it gets very complicated. The Irgun, a Jewish militia group not a part of the Israeli government, committed a massacre of 300 or so civilians in a village called Deir Yassin. The circumstances that caused this was a result of confusion very similar to what US troops did in My Lai. The Palestinians overreacted to this massacre by fleeing Palestine in large numbers, urged on by the Mufti of Jerusalem and the governments of Egypt and Jordan, who wanted them out of the way so that they could destroy the Zionists. They failed. And the Palestinians found themselves outside of Israel. They weren’t forced out. That in a nutshell is the counter-opinion. Personally I think both accounts are true: some Palestinians left of their own accord, some left because they were told by their leaders to go, and some were forced out. But both sides have their own version at this point and you won’t argue them out of it.
2. No. There have not and have never been sufficient resources or infrastructure in Gaza. However, that is true of many nations around the world (in terms of resources). Hong Kong, for instance, is a barren rock. The poverty of the Palestinian people is their own fault, and the fault of the Arab nations, and the fault of Israel. Again, try telling either side this and you will get nowhere.
Short Corner
Footballguy
take the hook out of your mouthHenry Ford said:
Short Corner
Footballguy
Let's call the Irgun what they really are.timschochet said:
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
I’m sorry, it sounds like your argument is that before Israel was officially recognized Israeli forces which were eventually absorbed into the national military carried out a massacre of peaceful villagers and that when Israel was recognized a month later people running away was an overreaction.timschochet said:
Short Corner
Footballguy
And we only know of Deir Yassin and a few others. Dead men tell no tales and all that.
Short Corner
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
That’s one way of looking at it. Its not quite the way most Israelis look at it.
I wasn’t there, Henry. Bad things certainly happened and it is a murky situation. I grew up raised in a very pro-Israeli family. These days I tend to be more sympathetic to the Palestinians. But I don’t see Israelis as evil either.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m no fan of the Irgun, Short Corner. But I can’t put them in the same moral grouping as I would modern day terrorists. I tried to be precise in my terminology. A good analogy to the Irgun might be the Viet Cong.
Short Corner
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
That’s certainly true.
Lets be realistic though: no matter what we agree and disagree on here, the right of return is never going to happen. But I believe that a peace between Israel and Palestine is still possible:
Israel is going to have to give up its settlements in the West Bank and stop governing it and stop blockading Gaza. Israel is going to have to give up control of some of the holy sites in Old Jerusalem. And Israel is going to have to help pay to build up Palestine’s infrastructure, as compensation.
The Palestinians, including Hamas and Hezbollah, must recognize the State of Israel and forswear terror attacks. And they must agree to give up the right of return and concede overall control of Jerusalem to Israel.
Maybe a new generation of leaders on both sides can bring this about. I hope so.
timschochet
Footballguy
Too late to get into. If you study the VC and the Irgun and the Algerian guerillas and the Michael Collins led Irish Republican Brotherhood and Fidel Castro’s guerillas, all very similar guerilla movements, all used violence but mostly assassinated soldiers or attacked military targets. The modern day ferrorist attempts to attack non-military targets in order to cause random terror. I draw a moral distinction there.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
That’s fair. That’s about where I am, too, but I’m not averse to the idea that either side or both sides have created this situation with horrifying policies and actions.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
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