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The Republican party is in a death spiral... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter adonis
- Start date
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I don't know how a nation can ever lose its identity. Unless identity is something that's never supposed to change.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Probably a three pronged issue of race (brown people), religion (Muslims) and socialism.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I think for the US, this is true, but a lot of nations are very closely tied to a specific race and culture. That could theoretically change through large scale immigration, but I think that would take like the entire nation of Somalia moving to Ireland or something. The US could absorb an entire country and still be distinctly the US.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
A reasonable perspective and one which leads me roundaboutly to wonder how many immigrants a nation of 330 million and having four million annual domestic births could absorb before being irrevocably changed. What effects would a million per year have? Two million? And, to be realistic, let's assume that the huge bulk of these folks will be coming from the Third World (everybody else has better health care
).
NCCommish
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
It gets easier with a larger number of immigrants coming in who don’t share American values.
It’s pretty easy to come up with several scenarios where serious change could come from large waves of immigration.
Insomniac
Footballguy
joffer
Footballguy
kwille
Footballguy
I'd agree that the Rs are in a death spiral if the opposing party wasn't (generally) a bunch of well meaning but dysfunctional goobers. This moderate non-affiliated voter feels politically homeless with no relief in sight. One one side of my cardboard shack is the heartless, soulless party of Trump (no thanks) and on the other, a confused jumble of messaging and ideas, like fusion food gone wrong.
NCCommish
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
Many people across the world do not share our western liberal values. Jihadists don't support liberal values.
I find it odd that people have a hard time accepting that folks throughout the world have different values, and that you can't just remove all 300 million Americans and replace them with 300 million folks from any other country and not expect to have profound changes in values coming from the resulting America.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Except we aren't removing 300 million and replacing them with 300 million. So what happens is each generation of immigrants gets more American until by the 3rd generation they didnt even speak the old countries language. This has played out 10s of millions of times literally. Fear isn't a good look.adonis said:
adonis
Footballguy
My point is that there is a number beyond which allowing more immigrants in threatens American values. The replacement example is just an edge case that makes that point.
Its reasonable to debate what number and types of immigrants should be allowed in. It’s not reasonable to flatly deny immigrants can change American values, IMO.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think I probably share more values in common with the average immigrant than I do with the average Trump supporter.
adonis
Footballguy
I imagine the proportion of shared values change drastically depending on how big the area you’re averaging across is and what part of the world you focus on.
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
I agree. But that still doesn’t mean we can bring in any number of immigrants from anywhere and not have it impact American values.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And my point is American values have always been shaped by immigrants and their take on them. And frankly many Americans dont seem to have much like for western liberal values. You should be a lot more worried about homegrown people that dont share your values than immigrants.
adonis
Footballguy
I’m worried about both.
Worry about one shouldn’t preclude us from doing the most sensible thing in the other.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Except your solution isn't the most sensible. Time and again it's the immigrant and the children of immigrants that have pushed this country forward. While people so worried about who is coming here hold it back.
adonis
Footballguy
Why isn't having a reasonable limit on immigration, and some sort of threshold for choosing who comes in and who doesn't, the most sensible general option?
The Commish
Footballguy
When I see questions like this I really wish they'd have demo questions to clarify "Republicans". Like how long they have identified as republican etc.
The Commish
Footballguy
Is losing our current identity really a bad thing? Asking for a friend 
Jackstraw
Footballguy
I really think the asylum laws are the most pressing issue. Although some immigration reform is needed. But the kind of immigrants that are doing the hard work in thei country really aren't going to be elligible for legal immigration due to lack or resources, education etc. We need to legitimize the labor force as much or more than the doctors and lawyers.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Trump's blatant racism is getting the GOP deeply underwater with the two youngest generations of voters. He could well draw another inside straight next November but after that Republicans are going to have a lot of fences to mend in a nation headed inexorably toward a majority of "minorities."
It's a good thing he's as dumb as he is mean. A smarter president would be much more aware of the need to reach a(nother) demographic that votes Dem by 30+ points.
It's a good thing he's as dumb as he is mean. A smarter president would be much more aware of the need to reach a(nother) demographic that votes Dem by 30+ points.
msommer
Footballguy
It's not only him though. The entire RNC is and has been marching headlong in this direction the past decade. In this respect Trump is a symptom.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The professional election analysts employed by the party certainly seem to understand the problem but they are routinely ignored by top party officials. Those officials also ignored their own party report after the 2012 election to double down instead and throw in with Trump. They were temporarily rewarded for that but it's terrible strategy in the long run.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Or perhaps he’s conceding that demographic’s vote in a trade off that is more politically advantageous.roadkill1292 said:
He’s being underestimated once again. You’d think the Dems would have learned the first time, but here they go again making the same mistakes and some new ones.
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timschochet
Footballguy
@roadkill1292‘s analysis here was not about Trump but about the Republican Party. You may very well be right that these statements will be to Trump’s short term advantage (I disagree) but they are certainly not to the long term benefit of the GOP.
The GOP was told what they had to do in the 2012 autopsy: expand their base. That hasn’t changed. Instead they took the easier way out of battening down the hatches. They rolled double sixes in 2016 and now they think they can do it again. I doubt that but who knows? Bit even if they do it’s unsustainable. They’re digging their own grave deeper and deeper.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
With the country moving more to the left (higher poor and minority birth rates, immigration etc.) the Republican Party will too...it won’t have a choice.
To me the more interesting discussion is if it will move more left fiscally or socially. I hope socially.
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TripItUp
Footballguy
I would say he has 4 demographics.
Rural
White
Fiscal conservative
Social conservative
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timschochet
Footballguy
Probably the biggest question in politics for the future is “what will the Republican Party look like when Trump is done? Does his point of view represent a permanent change or will things revert to Reagan styled conservatism?”
Nobody knows the answer.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Look no further than Nikki Haley. She will be the face of the party in 5 years.
Trump is an anomaly imho.
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The Commish
Footballguy
You're gonna have to flesh this one out a little bit. If there is ANYTHING he's emphatically proven over his tenure as President it is that he is NOT fiscally conservative.....his history as a "business man" doesn't even support this.
TripItUp
Footballguy
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
No he isn't. He is a further extension of Palin and the people that love the lies and idiocy that rep hate.
When the radical right knew they had ruined much of everythinng through the Bush years -- this is their continued response.
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The Commish
Footballguy
I know.....the question is why you believe a well documented careless fiscally liberal person would be in play for fiscal conservatives? Why would that demographic vote for him? And if your assertion is he is simply TARGETING them, what does that message look like that doesn't completely insult their intelligence?
boots11234
Footballguy
I’ve read many of your posts over the years. I remember when you were Obama’s biggest cheerleader here.
Though we are on completely different sides I’m guessing on most all issues this is one where we agree. I just wish more on your side saw that there IS an American identity and culture. It is unique. Nothing like it any other place in the world. We need to have care when adding to it that we do it in a controlled manner so that we don’t lose what makes us special.
adonis
Footballguy
I think it's relatively easy to make the point that we have a unique identity. If we didn't, you could extract our entire 300+ million population and drop in 300+ million people from anywhere in the world, and assume you wouldn't lose anything either immediately, or in a short amount of time.
And I'm still a big Obama fan, but certainly willing to say he's not perfect and didn't do everything the way I'd have liked. In terms of exuding American values, embodying the exceptionalism of America, he is head and shoulders above Trump in that respect.
But I agree that many on my side of the aisle don't have healthy caution around what unchecked immigration could do to the country. There's little appreciation for the differences in core values between groups of people, and many on my side thing that it just filters out after a generation or two, but don't give a lot of thought to the impact having huge numbers of that first generation in our country would do.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
The question at hand was poorly worded. Obviously, if a <pick a really large number> number of immigrants were to immediately come to the US, of course the country would change. I'm not really sure what the "identity" of America is, but surely it would be changed.Is losing our current identity really a bad thing? Asking for a friend
That said, is that a bad thing? The question is framed in such a way that it's implied that it's a negative thing. I think the country would be better off with more immigrants; in that sense, "losing identity" would be a positive. You could theoretically answer that question yes and be in favor of more liberal immigration law.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Let's narrow it down even further. We could have a bunch of immigrants from, say Norway or Denmark, who come here and say "hey, this is a great place and all but you guys have used the First World's dumbest system of elections here for a long time. Now that we're here, let us help you with that."
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
Parliamentary elections are called by the Monarch on the advice of the Prime Minister, usually four years after the last election, although early elections may occur. Elections to local councils (municipal or regional) and to the European Parliament are held on fixed dates. Elections use the party-list proportional representation system. Only citizens on the national register are eligible to vote in parliamentary elections and long-time residents may vote in local elections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Denmark
I don't think that would go over well with Liberals.
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