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Rock Du Jour - 4/29/22 - The New Intellectual Right and J.D. Vance and Exactly Who We're Voting For - Very Important, Folks! (1 Viewer)

tim, just admit it...
What am I supposed to admit? When I wrote I felt safe I was referring to buying products that I consume: food, over the counter medicine. That’s what you brought up. Now you’re talking about homeless? 

And plastic straws and bags? Am I supposed to care? I don’t. 

 
What am I supposed to admit? When I wrote I felt safe I was referring to buying products that I consume: food, over the counter medicine. That’s what you brought up. Now you’re talking about homeless? 

And plastic straws and bags? Am I supposed to care? I don’t. 
It's a Jane's Addiction song. Just admit how far left you are. You're now supporting something even CT thinks is too far left.

 
It's a Jane's Addiction song. Just admit how far left you are. You're now supporting something even CT thinks is too far left.
I have no idea if I support what CT is doing. I support the principle of regulations to make products more safe. Apparently you don’t, so we disagree. 

If that makes me “far left” then my understanding of terms needs work I guess. 

 
I have no idea if I support what CT is doing. I support the principle of regulations to make products more safe.
This says a lot. You have no idea about the particular case, yet you're willing to extrapolate a generalization from my not-even-explicit disagreement with adopting the EU cosmetic regulations, of which you admittedly know little, as do I. Simply put, you've assigned me to a philosophic outlook I've nowhere near expressed while supporting a particular act when you have no idea about its elements. Good work.

 
I don’t know all the details of the makeup industry or the health risks but the general discussion of health  regulations, I have to side with Tim here. I don’t see that as an inherent left issue. Now maybe this particular CT bill is extreme? If so, why?

 
I don’t know all the details of the makeup industry or the health risks but the general discussion of health  regulations, I have to side with Tim here. I don’t see that as an inherent left issue. Now maybe this particular CT bill is extreme? If so, why?
Don’t fool yourself.  Consumer protection is a left issue.  People on the right will knee-jerk to “the market” and “right to buy a cheaper alternative”.  Consumer protection is a left concept that recognizes that safety cannot simply be left up to the market because then people die. 

“The right” as a rule only suggests an attachment to this sort of issue when they realize, for instance, Boeing sold a safety upgrade to a plane that crashed without it and they’ll look terrible supporting that. 

 
I don’t know all the details of the makeup industry or the health risks but the general discussion of health  regulations, I have to side with Tim here. I don’t see that as an inherent left issue. Now maybe this particular CT bill is extreme? If so, why?
This particular bill adopts standards that none of the other fifty states in the USA have adopted, those standards being the EU ones. The debate here is now completely on assumed premises, which isn't surprising. Tim has branded me a hated of consumer safety regulations and Henry has claimed the issue as a "left issue." Assuming the EU standards actually do save lives and are an efficient use of resources and Pareto trade-offs with other consumer protection measures, then one can proceed as tim and Henry have done. Until then, it's all just smoke and conjecture and trust in the reporters at the Guardian and consumer protection advocacy "experts" that the Guardian article cites. 

 
Don’t fool yourself.  Consumer protection is a left issue.  People on the right will knee-jerk to “the market” and “right to buy a cheaper alternative”.  Consumer protection is a left concept that recognizes that safety cannot simply be left up to the market because then people die. 

“The right” as a rule only suggests an attachment to this sort of issue when they realize, for instance, Boeing sold a safety upgrade to a plane that crashed without it and they’ll look terrible supporting that. 
It shouldn't be, but if it is, then apparently those on the right value corporate profit over consumer protection and lives.

I still have a full head of hair and with oily skin I have to wash my hair everyday otherwise it looks like I haven't washed it in a week. I would hope or assume that I am not putting something proven to be cancer causing or carcinogenic on my scalp on a daily basis and that the FDA is regulating and protecting myself and other consumers from that.

 
It shouldn't be, but if it is, then apparently those on the right value corporate profit over consumer protection and lives.

I still have a full head of hair and with oily skin I have to wash my hair everyday otherwise it looks like I haven't washed it in a week. I would hope or assume that I am not putting something proven to be cancer causing or carcinogenic on my scalp on a daily basis and that the FDA is regulating and protecting myself and other consumers from that.
Yeah, that seems super off brand for the right. 

 
The left has had endless opportunities to bring cosmetics under the purview of the FDA and has not done so. The most recent time they controlled the executive branch, was, oh, 1992-2000 and then from 2008-2016, and they did nothing about it. There may be another reason other than corporate profit and protection of consumers for not choosing to do so.

 
I guess we could really put this to bed by discussing the Republican legislative efforts to protect consumers in recent years. 
Consumer protection sounds so noble, yet its effects so large. I wonder why, even when Democrats hold both houses, their measures aren't more stringent. 

 
Tim has branded me a hater 
Lol you’re the one who raised the subject and then wrote that Ct “can’t get any uglier.” 

I really don’t care. I suspect that despite your rhetoric we’re not that far apart. If the new regulations make sense, good. If they go too far, bad. That’s pretty easy, right? 

What I don’t like is how people just immediately jump to their preheld positions on these issues. Sometimes, I think a lot of times, regulations are good. They’re there to keep us safe. Sometimes, I think not often, they go overboard, either by design or mistake, and then we need to correct them. In each case we should examine the specifics and listen to the experts (and not to ideologues.) 

 
Ct “can’t get any uglier.”
I think you missed the joke. CT is not known for the natural beauty of its men or women. It's known for women bringing pants into Hollywood style and insurance salesman.

Howdy dowdy. 

 
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I think you missed the joke. CT is not known for the natural beauty of its men or women. It's known for women bringing pants into Hollywood style and insurance salesman.

Howdy dowdy. 
I miss a lot of jokes from you GB. To be honest, some of your posts read like an old Bret Easton Ellis novel. There are so many cultural references that are hard to figure out. @wikkidpissah is the only other guy around here who presents this kind of challenge. Sometimes reading him is like trying to decipher The Sound and the Fury. 

 
The left has had endless opportunities to bring cosmetics under the purview of the FDA and has not done so. The most recent time they controlled the executive branch, was, oh, 1992-2000 and then from 2008-2016, and they did nothing about it. There may be another reason other than corporate profit and protection of consumers for not choosing to do so.
Google “consumer financial protection bureau”

edit: the fact that “the left” hasn’t done everything doesn’t mean that the left isn’t the only group doing things. 

Edit2: also, cosmetics are already under the FDA. 

 
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I miss a lot of jokes from you GB. To be honest, some of your posts read like an old Bret Easton Ellis novel. There are so many cultural references that are hard to figure out. @wikkidpissah is the only other guy around here who presents this kind of challenge. Sometimes reading him is like trying to decipher The Sound and the Fury. 
Yeah, that's fair. The CT thing is also because I lived there and know the jokes about Katherine Hepburn as our glamour queen and our insurance salesmen as our thymotic pride

 
Google “consumer financial protection bureau”
That has absolutely nothing to do with cosmetics and the FDA. Not a thing. And one can debate how much harder the CFPB (I hate giving it the imprimatur of initial recognition) is going to make things for the unbanked. They're doing CP stuff out in CA here and I wrote a letter to our representative asking him to not pass the proposed provisions about short-term credit, payday loans, and interest rates. 

 
I think you missed the joke. CT is not known for the natural beauty of its men or women. It's known for women bringing pants into Hollywood style and insurance salesman.

Howdy dowdy. 
Now I can’t help but imagine you speaking with a mid-Atlantic accent

 
That has absolutely nothing to do with cosmetics and the FDA. Not a thing. And one can debate how much harder the CFPB (I hate giving it the imprimatur of initial recognition) is going to make things for the unbanked. They're doing CP stuff out in CA here and I wrote a letter to our representative asking him to not pass the proposed provisions about short-term credit, payday loans, and interest rates. 
I edited to explain my meaning there. 

Also, given that the FDA exists under a law titled the “Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act” I’m confused why you think the FDA doesn’t cover cosmetics. 

 
I edited to explain my meaning there. 

Also, given that the FDA exists under a law titled the “Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act” I’m confused why you think the FDA doesn’t cover cosmetics. 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purview 

FDA approval is not required for cosmetics. The FDA has the authority to regulate cosmetics. I should have been clearer in my use of words. Approval of cosmetics is beyond statutory purview of the FDA. The FDA may regulate cosmetics for safety if it wishes.

 
Part of my issue is I never know if when are discussing right and left if we are speaking current practical application or philosophical principles. I agree that the current iteration of the right isn’t so big on consumer protection but I don’t think there is any philosophical core conservative principle that would be anti-consumer protection.

 
Food also doesn’t require FDA approval before labeling or sale. Is that a concern for you?
Not really sure how that's relevant to the discussion at hand. The debate I was assuming was the debate over approval, which is brought up often when it comes to cosmetics and the thorny issue of labeling vs. approval and the desired consumer protections therewith. Dunno. Usually the issue is framed that way, with labeling as a given; perhaps I'm missing something.

I’m sure you don’t but I’m still picturing it 
I once had a girl who told me she was sure I was from Essex, CT, and that was about the same as assuming I have a Yankee accent. 

 
I wish I had the mid Atlantic, but Katharine and Cary are my heroes so that’s just me. Tony Curtis kills it Some Like It Hot with his Grant impression.

 
I do know we used to argue food labeling itself over at Reason when I commented there. I took the position that food labeling was generally desirable provided the standards weren't too punitive in their designations of "organic" or "non-GMO," etc. Labeling for ingredients and dating I take as given, too. I'm not a pure libertarian; I'm a classical liberal. 

 
Also it some a nice little coincidence that we are taking Katharine Hepburn and government regulation at the same time.

Tho maybe that allusion to the Hepburn Act was implied from the start by RA and just went over our heads.

 
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I do know we used to argue food labeling itself over at Reason when I commented there. I took the position that food labeling was generally desirable provided the standards weren't too punitive in their designations of "organic" or "non-GMO," etc. Labeling for ingredients and dating I take as given, too. I'm not a pure libertarian; I'm a classical liberal. 
I am a Teddy Roosevelt kind of guy I think and not everyone seems to agree what exactly that is. 

 The true friend of property, the true conservative, is he who insists that property shall be the servant and not the master of the commonwealth; who insists that the creature of man's making shall be the servant and not the master of the man who made it. The citizens of the United States must effectively control the mighty commercial forces which they have themselves called into being. 

 
I miss a lot of jokes from you GB. To be honest, some of your posts read like an old Bret Easton Ellis novel. There are so many cultural references that are hard to figure out. @wikkidpissah is the only other guy around here who presents this kind of challenge. Sometimes reading him is like trying to decipher The Sound and the Fury. 
I have always been deeply bothered by how much sense my gibberish makes to me. Glad i don't have to read it...

 
I am a Teddy Roosevelt kind of guy I think and not everyone seems to agree what exactly that is. 

 The true friend of property, the true conservative, is he who insists that property shall be the servant and not the master of the commonwealth; who insists that the creature of man's making shall be the servant and not the master of the man who made it. The citizens of the United States must effectively control the mighty commercial forces which they have themselves called into being. 
Yup.  Bull Moose Party FTW. 

 
I asked Hurwitz about this, and he shrugged. The goal is not to rebrand the Democratic Party—to camouflage a progressive agenda in nonprogressive garb, to dupe a congressional district full of Sean Hannity fanatics into embracing Medicare for All. The goal is to refocus Democrats on core, American values that resonate everywhere, that transcend the stultifying, partisan compartments that dominate the discourse.
The point is a new kind of politics, which doesn’t just mean that Trump has to lose, but that Democrats have to win the right way. That means no scorched-earth ####. No condescending. No ####### Twitter mobs. That, Hurwitz said, is not how you rescue the republic. You have to think about America. All of it. And tone matters. So does the way you frame an argument, the assumptions you make about yourself, about the chump you’re body-slamming on Facebook, about everything you think you know and everything you assume he doesn’t. “I don’t actually care if someone has deep blue positions,” Hurwitz tells me. “I care about whether they vilify the other side.”

The dynamics are not good. The leader of the pack, the former veep, seems not to grasp that something metabolic has happened to the country, that Trump is not an “aberration” but a symptom of a darkness that’s been building for decades. Most of the serious or once serious candidates have one (or more) Achilles’ heels. The two most powerful forces coursing through the Democratic base are an angry populism and an angrier identity politics, both of which pit Americans against Americans, both of which amount to a series of grievances, hatreds, demands that historical and systemic wrongs be righted.

American democracy can be saved—this is the subtext of everything the Hollywood Three is doing—but to save it, they need the right candidate, and the right candidate has to say the right things and resist the baser impulses of the partisan left. This person has to be like all of America’s greatest and most providential presidents—this person must be a little magical. Lauren Underwood, one of the few Democrats on Capitol Hill not running for the White House, said the solution—the magic—was obvious but hard to pull off. “The words we use matter,” she said. “You can talk about every policy issue under the sun and perhaps ground them in shared values. A lot of folks are always talking with people that, you know, agree with 100% of what they believe, watch the same shows, and have the same cultural references. Folks don’t always know how to have a conversation at a fundamental level. I think that’s been a challenge for a lot of my colleagues.”
- There's no convincing anyone who might for Trump based on policy arguments, I agree with that.

- And yeah the key is to get the apathetic and agnostic off their couches.

 
In recent decades, the U.S. Congress has delegated its lawmaking powers:
This is absolutely true but the courts have been major players in this as well.

I just want to provide some recent examples.

- I know, the motive was offensive, but getting past that citizen groups' challenges to Obama's birthplace were regularly rejected by the courts as not having standing. Now whatever base claims were being made aside, who exactly should have been able to challenge this in the courts?

- Emoluments - same thing, states and citizens groups have been denied the right to sue recently.

- Appropriations clause, yesterday of course a suit by a citizens group against Trump's use of emergency powers was largely (albeit not entirely) tamped down by the USSC as lacking standing, however another suit by the House was previously dismissed.

- The USSC recently said that it does not even have the power to examine the legitimate enforcement of redistricting.

These are just some examples, how are Constitutional mandates - and I do mean mandates - about the limitations of executive power supposed to be enforced under these conditions?

 
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This is absolutely true but the courts have been major players in this as well.

I just want to provide some recent examples.

- I know, the motive was offensive, but getting past that citizen groups' challenges to Obama's birthplace were regularly rejected by the courts as not having standing. Now whatever base claims were being made aside, who exactly should have been able to challenge this in the courts?

- Emoluments - same thing, states and citizens groups have been denied the right to sue recently.

- Appropriations clause, yesterday of course a suit by a citizens group against Trump's use of emergency powers was largely (albeit not entirely) tamped down by the USSC as lacking standing, however another suit by the House was previously dismissed.

- The USSC recently said that it does not even have the power to examine the legitimate enforcement of redistricting.

These are just some examples, how are Constitutional mandates - and I do mean mandates - about the limitations of executive power supposed to be enforced under these conditions?
We studied standing extensively in school  because experts predicted the discretion the Court would use to weed out cases would increase -- that this is where the Court was headed, jurisprudentially. In general, I don't know what to say. Who is a valid party to a suit? I think the guys that practice would be better off commenting than me, frankly, who is even having trouble remembering the legal term for what they're doing (no, not standing -- a discretionary move taken by the courts to avoid or hear suits...what the hell is that?) or the three-pronged test for standing. That's straight Civ Pro, and I bombed Civ Pro because I was off doing drugs somewhere.  

If I can't remember, I'm probably no good in the analysis of the movement, you know. I do know that some of those cases most likely weren't a great departure from the norms the Court has previously exercised.  

 
We studied standing extensively in school  because experts predicted the discretion the Court would use to weed out cases would increase -- that this is where the Court was headed, jurisprudentially. In general, I don't know what to say. Who is a valid party to a suit? I think the guys that practice would be better off commenting than me, frankly, who is even having trouble remembering the legal term for what they're doing (no, not standing -- a discretionary move taken by the courts to avoid or hear suits...what the hell is that?) or the three-pronged test for standing. That's straight Civ Pro, and I bombed Civ Pro because I was off doing drugs somewhere.  

If I can't remember, I'm probably no good in the analysis of the movement, you know. I do know that some of those cases most likely weren't a great departure from the norms the Court has previously exercised.  
I’m not really sure I meant to have a discussion about standing or justiciability, my point was that the courts have often rejected challenges to executive power even when the Congress itself is willing and able. As an effect Congress has been frequently pushed into a corner.

 
I’m not really sure I meant to have a discussion about standing or justiciability, my point was that the courts have often rejected challenges to executive power even when the Congress itself is willing and able. As an effect Congress has been frequently pushed into a corner.
Oh, any nondelegation constitutional question should be able to be heard if a member of Congress brings it. At least, all federal questions should be handled ultimately by the Court. 

 
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