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Trump poised to end DACA as early as Friday (1 Viewer)

AAABatteries said:
Because he’s not the one deciding a lot of this - his advisers are.  They’ll tell him not to sign it.
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Under other circumstances, I'd agree, but it seems that he doesn't really listen when it's something that could "undo" something from his predecessor.  That seems to be criteria #1 for the simpleton.  

 
Zow said:
A parolee would still be afforded legal due process. That likely means some sort of meaningful hearing with some required burden of proof. He’s not sent back on a mere accusation alone. 
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So just like this scenario? 

Doctor drunk leadfoot will get a hearing. 

ETA: In fact the good doctor will get to go in front of a judge, something that a parole violator often doesn't get. 

 
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The Commish said:
Of course it's part of the problem.  This is a step in the right direction.  You love the game of politics so you should easily see what's happening here.  If the Senate can agree, throwing it back over to the "problem" shines a huge light on the "problem".  That's a net win.  If it's not brought to the Senate floor, it shines another huge light on the "problem".  This is exactly what should be happening.
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I agree with you on this. 

But Im skeptical that the Senate will agree to anything, because, let’s face it, Republicans in the Senate don’t want the Freedom Caucus to become the face of their party. And that’s exactly what will happen if this issue goes to the House. So the Senate GOP leaders will find excuses to block it to avoid that from happening. 

 
timschochet said:
The Commish said:
Of course it's part of the problem.  This is a step in the right direction.  You love the game of politics so you should easily see what's happening here.  If the Senate can agree, throwing it back over to the "problem" shines a huge light on the "problem".  That's a net win.  If it's not brought to the Senate floor, it shines another huge light on the "problem".  This is exactly what should be happening.
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I agree with you on this. 

But Im skeptical that the Senate will agree to anything, because, let’s face it, Republicans in the Senate don’t want the Freedom Caucus to become the face of their party. And that’s exactly what will happen if this issue goes to the House. So the Senate GOP leaders will find excuses to block it to avoid that from happening. 
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That ship has sailed.  I can't think of a single reason not to cut ties with them on this issue and I can't think of a valid reason I'd want to provide that kind of cover for such despicable beliefs.  

 
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Our good polish doctor was granted bail. His next court date is February 22nd. 

I am now seeing reports that the 2008 conviction for DUI was his second. He also had one in 1999. I cant seem to find out any details on that one though. This article mentions it. 

Niec also has two drunk driving incidents on his record. He was convicted of driving while intoxicated in 1999 and served a probation term for a similar incident in 2008. Part of Niec’s bail release is that he is forbidden from drinking alcohol.
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During the hearing for bail the Govt Atty. claimed Niec has a drinking problem. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
So just like this scenario? 

Doctor drunk leadfoot will get a hearing. 

ETA: In fact the good doctor will get to go in front of a judge, something that a parole violator often doesn't get. 
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I wasn't referencing this scenario.  I was pointing out the inaccuracy in your assertion that I responded to. 

 
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22332374/driver-accused-killing-edwin-jackson-indianapolis-colts-country-illegally

INDIANAPOLIS -- The suspected drunken driver accused of hitting and killing Indianapolis Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson has been living in the country illegally and did not have a driver's license, the Indiana State Police announced Monday.

The driver of the truck that killed Jackson and ride-sharing operator Jeffrey Monroe had been using the alias Alex Cabrera Gonsales, the police said in a release. Gonsales' given name is Manuel Orrego-Savala, and he is a citizen of Guatemala. Orrego-Savala had been deported in 2007 and 2009.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/12/faith-leaders-seek-protect-immigrants-muslims-others/97705312/

Indy faith leaders say they will pressure sheriff to stop cooperating with Immigration and Customs Enforcement

 
Stealthycat said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22332374/driver-accused-killing-edwin-jackson-indianapolis-colts-country-illegally

INDIANAPOLIS -- The suspected drunken driver accused of hitting and killing Indianapolis Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson has been living in the country illegally and did not have a driver's license, the Indiana State Police announced Monday.

The driver of the truck that killed Jackson and ride-sharing operator Jeffrey Monroe had been using the alias Alex Cabrera Gonsales, the police said in a release. Gonsales' given name is Manuel Orrego-Savala, and he is a citizen of Guatemala. Orrego-Savala had been deported in 2007 and 2009.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/12/faith-leaders-seek-protect-immigrants-muslims-others/97705312/

Indy faith leaders say they will pressure sheriff to stop cooperating with Immigration and Customs Enforcement
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Check this one out

 
Stealthycat said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22332374/driver-accused-killing-edwin-jackson-indianapolis-colts-country-illegally

INDIANAPOLIS -- The suspected drunken driver accused of hitting and killing Indianapolis Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson has been living in the country illegally and did not have a driver's license, the Indiana State Police announced Monday.

The driver of the truck that killed Jackson and ride-sharing operator Jeffrey Monroe had been using the alias Alex Cabrera Gonsales, the police said in a release. Gonsales' given name is Manuel Orrego-Savala, and he is a citizen of Guatemala. Orrego-Savala had been deported in 2007 and 2009.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/12/faith-leaders-seek-protect-immigrants-muslims-others/97705312/

Indy faith leaders say they will pressure sheriff to stop cooperating with Immigration and Customs Enforcement
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What does this have to do with DACA?

 
Regarding the McCain/Coons proposal:

1. The White House says its DOA.

2. Paul Ryan says that unless the White House pre-approves, he won't allow any bill to reach the floor.

Again, this is all a big show. What's going on (what's been going on all along) is that the Republicans are never going to allow any vote on DACA to reach the House of Representatives because it would create a civil war within the party- and this same goes for ANY proposal that allows a path to citizenship for undocumented people, period. No matter what the Senate does, it won't make any difference. No matter what compromises the Democrats agree to, it won't make any difference. This is the key to Trump's seeming intransigence on this issue. He can't agree to any deal that the Democrats could agree to, because that would force a vote and the GOP can't have it.

 
timschochet said:
Regarding the McCain/Coons proposal:

1. The White House says its DOA.

2. Paul Ryan says that unless the White House pre-approves, he won't allow any bill to reach the floor.

Again, this is all a big show. What's going on (what's been going on all along) is that the Republicans are never going to allow any vote on DACA to reach the House of Representatives because it would create a civil war within the party- and this same goes for ANY proposal that allows a path to citizenship for undocumented people, period. No matter what the Senate does, it won't make any difference. No matter what compromises the Democrats agree to, it won't make any difference. This is the key to Trump's seeming intransigence on this issue. He can't agree to any deal that the Democrats could agree to, because that would force a vote and the GOP can't have it.
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This is exactly what the Dems need to happen.  This is their rallying cry for the foreseeable future.  Everyone sees what's going on and those who can't admit it don't matter.  They are already voting for Trump regardless of what comes next.  The Senate needs to move forward and shine that beacon on Ryan for what he is.  The more exposure the beter.

 
timschochet said:
It doesn't have much to do with immigration either.
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it has everything to do with it

the left is squarely on the side of illegals and defending their illegally being here

the right is squarely on the side of US Citizens

very hard for anyone on the left to defend this ... two US citizens were killed by an illegal twice deported who yet again came back illegally. Had it been exceptionally difficult for that person to come back or ever be here to begin with, those two US citizens would not have been killed.

 
Zow said:
Fair point. You said "accusations" above... which we don't punish people for either without some finding by a trier of fact. 
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This would be too easy to keep Woz'ing the heck out of you right now and point out I never said that either, but it is annoying so I wont be like that. I will save you the reply where you then point out I said a statement that included that word wasn't true which is tantamount (or probably some other word you will use in an effort to sound superior) to saying that parolees go back to jail based on accusations and accusations alone. Then I would also woz you and point out where did I say only, blah blah blah.

Let's get to the real conversation here. Do you believe the following scenario can happen? 

A parolee is accused by a woman of hitting her. A police officer took her statement and she later decides she doesn't want to move forward and says nothing happened and her memory is foggy. All charges are dropped against the man. During the parole revocation hearing the woman still wont come forward, but the police officer testifies to what the woman told him when she filed the complaint. It is decided that's enough to send him back to jail.

I believe it can (well, because it can since I actually saw this exact scenario play out.)

 
parasaurolophus said:
This would be too easy to keep Woz'ing the heck out of you right now and point out I never said that either, but it is annoying so I wont be like that. I will save you the reply where you then point out I said a statement that included that word wasn't true which is tantamount (or probably some other word you will use in an effort to sound superior) to saying that parolees go back to jail based on accusations and accusations alone. Then I would also woz you and point out where did I say only, blah blah blah.

Let's get to the real conversation here. Do you believe the following scenario can happen? 

A parolee is accused by a woman of hitting her. A police officer took her statement and she later decides she doesn't want to move forward and says nothing happened and her memory is foggy. All charges are dropped against the man. During the parole revocation hearing the woman still wont come forward, but the police officer testifies to what the woman told him when she filed the complaint. It is decided that's enough to send him back to jail.

I believe it can (well, because it can since I actually saw this exact scenario play out.)
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Sure that can happen.  Different burdens of proof.  But that doesn't change my previous point: there's still a meaningful hearing with a tier of fact. 

Note: I've seen actual convictions result from the same fact pattern listed above.  Issues such as credibility and impeachment are real things for a finder of fact to consider.  

 
The Commish said:
so, just more :hophead:

got it.....
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if there are no illegals,  then illegals can't commit crimes

if you don't have dogs, no one will get dog bit, if you don't have a truck, no one will be driving a truck, if you don't have pants to wear, you won't be wearing pants ............ you get the idea

 
Stealthycat said:
if there are no illegals,  then illegals can't commit crimes
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The first time I heard this argument (over 20 years ago, during California’s Prop 187 debate) I thought to myself, well this is so dumb we won’t hear it for long. But the depressing thing is it’s been made over and over again. 

 
timschochet said:
The first time I heard this argument (over 20 years ago, during California’s Prop 187 debate) I thought to myself, well this is so dumb we won’t hear it for long. But the depressing thing is it’s been made over and over again. 
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I got more wisdom too

If there were no citizens, citizens wouldn't commit crimes

If non-residents didn't come to your state, there would be no non-residents coming there

If there were no taxpayers in the United States, there would not be any taxpayers paying taxes

I mean I can go on and on. Thing is ... I can imagine the fury that goes on in people when they see an illegal killing their family members etc. Knowing the Fed Govt let them down in not having security to stop those people from being here. Fury at the democrats for fighting so hard to keep all the illegals here. Fury at the system for failing.

According to the data, there have been a total of 137 fatal school shootings that killed 297 victims since 1980

73,665  The number of inmates in state and federal prisons who are not U.S. citizens,

177,960 ...... The number of undocumented immigrants deported last year who were convicted criminals, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

121   The number of people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014 - note, that's not since 1980, safe to say hundreds more have happened 

Just some fun numbers ..... google some and you can find many crimes against US citizens that were done by illegals, but the impact is undeniable  and you have a school shooting and people come out of the woodwork to ban guns to save one life even and the same people work hard to keep illegals in the US ....... unbelievable hypocrisy isn't it ?

 
Zow said:
Sure that can happen.  Different burdens of proof.  But that doesn't change my previous point: there's still a meaningful hearing with a tier of fact. 

Note: I've seen actual convictions result from the same fact pattern listed above.  Issues such as credibility and impeachment are real things for a finder of fact to consider.  
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So some courts or hearings have different rules huh, weird? And so here we are, right back to where you first jumped in here educating everybody and pulling your words have meanings schtick. Here is your quote... 

Definitions matter and words have meanings.  

You're also exactly right as to diversion not meaning a conviction.  In fact, if successfully completed, it means the exacts opposite by legal definition. 
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Hmmmmm......

a “conviction” for the purposes of deportation includes any instance in which a person pleads guilty to a crime or some kind of punishment is imposed, such as some mandatory diversion programs. Even if the record was sealed or expunged, it could still be used as a reason to remove someone from the country.
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Look at that. 

 
Joe Summer said:
Also, I don't really want to get into Wozzian levels of semantics, but entering a diversion program is not the same as being convicted of drunk driving.
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"Under immigration law passed in 1996, a “conviction” for the purposes of deportation includes any instance in which a person pleads guilty to a crime or some kind of punishment is imposed, such as some mandatory diversion programs. Even if the record was sealed or expunged, it could still be used as a reason to remove someone from the country."

Doctor leadfoot. Convicted of Drunk driving. Twice. Convicted of two crimes of moral turpitude in addition. Legally detained. Got bail. Might get legally deported.

I say ship the maniac driver back to poland! Legally. Due process at work here in America folks. 

 
parasaurolophus said:

"Under immigration law passed in 1996, a “conviction” for the purposes of deportation includes any instance in which a person pleads guilty to a crime or some kind of punishment is imposed, such as some mandatory diversion programs. Even if the record was sealed or expunged, it could still be used as a reason to remove someone from the country."

Doctor leadfoot. Convicted of Drunk driving. Twice. Convicted of two crimes of moral turpitude in addition. Legally detained. Got bail. Might get legally deported.
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Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1.

 
Stealthycat said:
if there are no illegals,  then illegals can't commit crimes

if you don't have dogs, no one will get dog bit, if you don't have a truck, no one will be driving a truck, if you don't have pants to wear, you won't be wearing pants ............ you get the idea
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no...not at all

 
timschochet said:
The first time I heard this argument (over 20 years ago, during California’s Prop 187 debate) I thought to myself, well this is so dumb we won’t hear it for long. But the depressing thing is it’s been made over and over again. 
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I guess I am lucky....I've never heard that before, until now.  It's talking just to talk.

 
Stealthycat said:
I got more wisdom too

If there were no citizens, citizens wouldn't commit crimes

If non-residents didn't come to your state, there would be no non-residents coming there

If there were no taxpayers in the United States, there would not be any taxpayers paying taxes

I mean I can go on and on. Thing is ... I can imagine the fury that goes on in people when they see an illegal killing their family members etc. Knowing the Fed Govt let them down in not having security to stop those people from being here. Fury at the democrats for fighting so hard to keep all the illegals here. Fury at the system for failing.

According to the data, there have been a total of 137 fatal school shootings that killed 297 victims since 1980

73,665  The number of inmates in state and federal prisons who are not U.S. citizens,

177,960 ...... The number of undocumented immigrants deported last year who were convicted criminals, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

121   The number of people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014 - note, that's not since 1980, safe to say hundreds more have happened 

Just some fun numbers ..... google some and you can find many crimes against US citizens that were done by illegals, but the impact is undeniable  and you have a school shooting and people come out of the woodwork to ban guns to save one life even and the same people work hard to keep illegals in the US ....... unbelievable hypocrisy isn't it ?
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TBH, it's not unbelievable when it comes to Democrats anymore.  Hypocrisy is absolutely a prerequisite to becoming a Democrat.  Everyone knows this.

 
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timschochet said:
Too lazy is absurd and insulting.
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why ?

do you know how many people are too lazy to renew their drivers licenses on time? pay their taxes? pick up their kids from school ?

people are lazy - its a human nature thing 

BTW

https://www.dailywire.com/news/26830/police-illegal-immigrant-urinating-public-ryan-saavedra#

An illegal alien caught urinating in public violently attacked a man with a box cutter after the man told him that he needed to use a bathroom, police say. ... That victim, plus an uninjured eyewitness, pointed officers toward Salvador Gomez-Lopez, 46 ...........

gotta solve the problem of millions of illegal people here and the impacts on US citizens 

 
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Reactions: RBM
Stealthycat said:
why ?

do you know how many people are too lazy to renew their drivers licenses on time? pay their taxes? pick up their kids from school ?

people are lazy - its a human nature thing 

BTW

https://www.dailywire.com/news/26830/police-illegal-immigrant-urinating-public-ryan-saavedra#

An illegal alien caught urinating in public violently attacked a man with a box cutter after the man told him that he needed to use a bathroom, police say. ... That victim, plus an uninjured eyewitness, pointed officers toward Salvador Gomez-Lopez, 46 ...........

gotta solve the problem of millions of illegal people here and the impacts on US citizens 
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Somehow this is our fault according to tim.

 
Stealthycat said:
if there are no illegals,  then illegals can't commit crimes

if you don't have dogs, no one will get dog bit, if you don't have a truck, no one will be driving a truck, if you don't have pants to wear, you won't be wearing pants ............ you get the idea
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I get it! If there are no police, there will be no police brutality! If there are no laws, no laws will be broken! If there are no women, no women will be raped! If there are no juveniles, there will be no juvenile delinquents!

Hurray! 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Somehow this is our fault according to tim.
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Fault for what? Taking anecdotes about violent undocumented immigrants, who are in actuality an extremely tiny percentage of all undocumented immigrants, and using those anecdotes to make some kind of political argument? You didn’t do that, Stealthycat did. President Trump does it all the time. And yes I find it wrong, and rooted in ignorance and racism. 

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
John Kelly thinks Dreamers were “too afraid” or “too lazy” to sign up for DACA
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How is it that previously-normal human beings become racist morons the minute they get around Trump?  Does that mean they were faking it all along?

John Kelly used to do commentary on CNN all the time. Seemed intelligent, articulate, logical, and caring. I was do optimistic when he was named chief of staff. I thought some Kelly would rub off on Trump.  But Trump rubbed off on Kelly.  Sad.  

 
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