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fantasycurse42

Sean Payton is Extremely Overrated as a Coach

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Am I alone on this? Having 12 gazillion packages doesn't make you a good coach - furthermore, the guys on the other sideline are professionals and ready to make the adjustments right after you, you aren't outsmarting anyone (even though I guess he still thinks he is). None of your guys ever get into a rhythm either. Drew Brees is a HOF QB and Payton could've done so much more with him, if he didn't suck as a coach. 

Go ahead, hot take, I get it... That 2009 team was pretty stacked and everyone played lights out, Rex Ryan or any other mediocre coach could've led them to that Super Bowl too.

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He certainly deserves criticism as a head coach, but I'm not sure why you'd say his offenses don't work.  He's been pretty good on that end.  Until last night of course. 

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33 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

He certainly deserves criticism as a head coach, but I'm not sure why you'd say his offenses don't work.  He's been pretty good on that end.  Until last night of course. 

He also has a top 10 of all time QB, could be much better, IMO.

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53 minutes ago, mphtrilogy said:

Would love him on the Jets

I'd put $ toward his plane ticket to NY!  

I love fans grilling top coaches like Payton or QBs like Eli.....live a few years with Todd Bowles or Sanchez/McCown to appreciate what you have.....

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Even to my untrained eye I've wondered what all the fuss is about for around 4-5 years. Team never seems to be improving, never seems to be going anywhere all the while the coach is lauded and is never apparently in any danger of being fired 

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He is another one of these coaches who thinks he is some kind of guru. I was laughing my a@@ off watching his play calling last night. Yeah, let me rotate 15 RBs in & out and run the same plays every time for each back. A peewee league coach could have stopped his game plan. He is awful.

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The Saints have consistently had a good offense and a bad defense. Their ranks in DVOA:

         Off    Def   ST
2006    8    22    14
2007    12   30    25
2008    4    26    22
2009    2    17    28
2010    11   10    21
2011    2    28    12
2012    9    32    24
2013    5    10    24
2014    7    31    11
2015    7    32    26
2016    6    31    27

Two seasons they had an amazing offense rather than just a good one (2009 & 2011). Two seasons they had an averageish defense instead of a bad one (2010 & 2013). Those are the 4 times that they made the playoffs in the past decade (plus 2006, when 10-6 was enough to win the division).

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I think people just tire of seeing the same old, same old without being able to see improvement. He can run an offense and put points on the board as long as he has brees but they will never win again if he doesn't Learn how to build a defense. 

The saints could do worse. Careful what you wish for and all that, but it seems they have settled for consistent mediocrity. It reminds me of lots of teams, especially college basketball teams where you give them the good stuff once and they keep you around far much longer than you deserve. 

 

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Wasted a lot of Brees career. Should have been fired two years ago.

And for those who think he just had a bad defense and does his best, you can't tell me he doesn't have a lot of say about the whole roster. He's like the Jeff Fisher of ocs.

Edited by voiceofunreason
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Is Payton also the GM? Serious question as I honestly don't know.

How much of the blame for an annually terrible defense falls on Payton the HC? Is it Payton's fault that Sam Bradford looked like Peyton Manning last night, or (barring injury) are the Vikings going to be "that team" in 2017... the one that comes out of nowhere and challenges for a Super Bowl berth?

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2 hours ago, GROOT said:

He hit a slot machine. As he put more money into the machine, he became broke again.

This^^^

He's a guy that hit it big early in his career. He had an opportunity to stop while he was ahead and move on but he went back to that same machine and now the house is winning.

He's super over rated. Before the season began I was saying (to myself) that he'd be fired at the end of the season. Peeling back the layers of this onion and everyone's realizing it stinks! 

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He's a typical WCO coach. QB looks great and as long as the D is above average (the O generally keeps them rested by moving the chains) they do well. McCarthy, Reid, Gruden, Shanahan, Holmgren and I guess even Bill Walsh. They all get stale but the system will work at their next stop.

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His stupid #### keeps getting worse and it doesn't fool any good defense. At this point in time, he's a buffoon. As voiceofreason said, he's the offensive equivalent of Jeff Fisher.

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6 minutes ago, Slider said:

He's a typical WCO coach. QB looks great and as long as the D is above average (the O generally keeps them rested by moving the chains) they do well. McCarthy, Reid, Gruden, Shanahan, Holmgren and I guess even Bill Walsh. They all get stale but the system will work at their next stop.

:confused:

I don't know about this... Are you saying Favre and Rodgers made Holmgren and McCarthy??? That's pretty bold. 

McCarthy isn't anywhere close to Payton IMO. McCarthy has a career record as a coach 115-61... Payton's is 94-66. Had SF drafted Rodgers there's a good chance he would have ended up just like Alex Smith...

Do they have the same game plan over the last few years? Sure, our defense sucks so let's outscore everyone. Historically GB's defense has been better than New Orleans IMO (no stats to throw out, but I believe GB has at least 2 finishes in the top 10 or 5 for defense in McCarthy's tenure)

Edited by Dr. Dan

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2 hours ago, GROOT said:

He hit a slot machine. As he put more money into the machine, he became broke again.

Solid analogy. 

Soending $ on AP when you've got Ingram & Kamara is a ridiculous waste. Paying AP to stand on the sidelines glaring at you instead of bolstering the OL or improving the defensive secondary - yeah. 

That's one move, sure....but as I understand it, Payton has final say on personell decisions. Trading Cooks to NEP was a head-scratcher too.

protip: if you're trading with the Patriots you probably just lost in a trade. And while yes they've got Thomas, Ginn isn't scaring anyone. Snead is a nice player, but he's not Cooks. And last night they looked like they really missed Cooks. 

Payton is super overrated. And they can't win on the road. Many put that on Bree's - to me it's coaching. 

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20 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

:confused:

I don't know about this... Are you saying Favre and Rodgers made Holmgren and McCarthy??? That's pretty bold. 

 

No I'm saying the offense is Bill Walsh's genius invention and that the coach and everyone on the O benefits. Name the greatest teams, QB's and even WR's and you'll find they often run a WCO. It's not the only way but it's a good way.

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46 minutes ago, Slider said:

No I'm saying the offense is Bill Walsh's genius invention and that the coach and everyone on the O benefits. Name the greatest teams, QB's and even WR's and you'll find they often run a WCO. It's not the only way but it's a good way.

Thanks for clarifying. I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I agree, yes.

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1 hour ago, lod001 said:

His stupid #### keeps getting worse and it doesn't fool any good defense. At this point in time, he's a buffoon. As voiceofreason said, he's the offensive equivalent of Jeff Fisher.

Although I think that's harsh (big Fisher hater), I think its clear that when Brees retires there's no compelling narrative to keep Payton around.

The systematic under-performance of NO defense is very similar to what happens when Manning / Luck are not behind center in Indy.

Of course there are those that will tell you that all the dead money in Brees' contracts has played a major role in that dynamic.

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While I'm ready for a change in Nola, I think this thread is comical.  Hard to win on the road with both starting tackles out.  You also have 3 rookies starting on defense.......4 really seeing as though PJ Williams hasn't played the past 2 years.  I've grown tired of his RB usage. It's hard for anyone to get into a rhythm when you play all 3 backs on the same drive.

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2 minutes ago, SproutDaddy said:

While I'm ready for a change in Nola, I think this thread is comical.  Hard to win on the road with both starting tackles out.  You also have 3 rookies starting on defense.......4 really seeing as though PJ Williams hasn't played the past 2 years.  I've grown tired of his RB usage. It's hard for anyone to get into a rhythm when you play all 3 backs on the same drive.

I agree on RB usage.  Payton screwed up by not running more play action with Peterson in the backfield.  Run vs Pass was telegraphed all game.

Having said that, both the Saints and Seahawks are known to be slow starters, so its a bit premature to say the sky is falling....but they need to get rolling quick.

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BB

Tomlin

Peyton

McCarthy

Carroll

Please make any of the above the HC of the Bears as currently constructed at QB and tell me how brilliant/successful they are.

Edited by JetMaxx
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42 minutes ago, JetMaxx said:

BB

Tomlin

Peyton

McCarthy

Carroll

Please make any of the above the HC of the Bears as currently constructed at QB and tell me how brilliant/successful they are.

BB would make the playoffs.

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11 hours ago, fantasycurse42 said:

That 2009 team was pretty stacked and everyone played lights out, Rex Ryan or any other mediocre coach could've led them to that Super Bowl too.

I'm neutral on Payton, but this is just stupid. No Super Bowl is guaranteed. If their championship was such a lock, why were they 5-point dogs to the Colts in the Super Bowl?

8 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

He is a good offensive coordinator made great by Brees

Worth remembering that Payton didn't inherit a HOF QB. He convinced a veteran QB who had a few years of solid, if unspectacular production, and who was coming off of a major injury, to sign with the team as a free agent (this after the Dolphins and certified coaching genius Nick Saban rejected Brees in favor of Daunte Culpepper). To put that in contemporary terms, it would be like if a first-time HC next year signed Tannehill as a FA and suddenly he started rewriting the passing record books. Can I prove that Brees' emergence is entirely a function of Payton? No, but Occam's Razor suggests he played a major role.

I will never understand why people insist on defining coaches in such all-or-nothing terms. You don't like Payton's recent track record, so you feel a need to @%#@ all over his entire career. Instead of saying Andy Reid is bad at clock management, people feel the need to denigrate his nearly two-decade track record of consistent winning. Why can't we just accept that coaches have strengths and weaknesses?

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Whatever the reason, this team hasn't been the same since 

1. Bountygate

2. Letting Graham go.

and it's looking like #3 might be 

3. Trading Cooks.

AP is a head scratcher. They had Kamara who they were obviously high on. They had Ingram who had an awesome year (despite Payton's best efforts to sabatoge it with terrible usage) - why go out and get AP? And then why not use him one you've got him?

whatd they do to replace Breaux when he went down? What'd they do to address defense in general? 

Very puzzling offseason. 

Cant put it all on Payton, but it was my understanding he's involved with offseason personnel decisions.

They have a lot of great pieces still. Seemingly short window to win with your HOF caliber QB.

And I don't understand why they're so bad on the road. Can they not practice outdoors somewhere? The difference is night & day for them. Is that not partly on coaching at least?

i am not one to disparage Payton's entire career, but the last couple seasons are a bit weird for this team.  

 

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3 minutes ago, bleachercreacher said:

He used to be good, but I don't think he's been right since the year off.

You posted this while I was writing the same. His suspension really seems like it effected him. 

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I don't know if overrated is the right term.   But the Saints have really not held him accountable for the terrible defenses they've put on the field which leads to what feels like the same plan year after year which is to ride Brees.  

Last 3 Septembers, the Saints have started excruciatingly slow.  Last night wasn't a step away from that and now they get Angry Tom Brady.  Looks like 4...

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For fun (mine, only) I could do an all time listing of best Saints coaches in order. But it always ends one way, with Payton at top. Yeah, we could have that conversation about how coaches hang around too long. And it's not all his fault, etc. And MNF vs the Vikes was his fault IMO. We'll see how it pans out. There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth here in NO.

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Easily one of the top-50 coaches in NFL history. Probably top-40.  Deserves every bit as much credit as Brees for Saints offensive prowess over the last decade. 

Yes, he gets too cute at times, but the greats always do. Joe Gibbs was guilty of that a lot too, and he's in the top-10 in my opinion. I think this is one of those cases, where expectations are so high, that any time they aren't met, it seems like a major disappointment. 

Edited by travdogg
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4 minutes ago, travdogg said:

Easily one of the top-50 coaches in NFL history. Probably top-40. Deserves every bit as much, probably more, credit than Brees for Saints offensive prowess over the last decade. 

Yes, he gets too cute at times, but the greats always do. Joe Gibbs was guilty of that a lot too, and he's in the top-10 in my opinion. I think this is one of those cases, where expectations are so high, that any time they aren't met, it seems like a major disappointment. 

You sir, are high

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Payton does need to go, but :lmao: @ Brees wasting his best years with him. Brees was an average to slightly above average qb when he went to the Saints. He won a super bowl and set records with Payton. 

The Saints were the Lions before Payton got there. Now they have a super bowl win and a number of playoff wins. 

There are 20 teams in the NFL right now that would hire the next Payton if they would have the last decade of football the Saints had. 

Edited by msudaisy26
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15 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

There are 20 teams in the NFL right now that would hire the next Payton if they would have the last decade of football the Saints had. 

The Saints have only had 4 winning seasons in the last decade. They did win a Super Bowl during that time, but I question whether they would have made the SB without their D trying to knock players out of the games.

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2 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

Payton does need to go, but :lmao: @ Brees wasting his best years with him. Brees was an average to slightly above average qb when he went to the Saints. He won a super bowl and set records with Payton. 

The Saints were the Lions before Payton got there. Now they have a super bowl win and a number of playoff wins. 

There are 20 teams in the NFL right now that would hire the next Payton if they would have the last decade of football the Saints had. 

Brees would not be the Brees we see with Caldwell in Detroit or John Fox anywhere. He would have thrived bigly with Shanahan. He would be Brady with Belicheck.  Brees definitely benefitted from Payton's O philosophy, but over time, the overall team did not.  Simply his use of RB's is a disaster and he hasn't figured out that it doesn't work. That is where he is failing magnificently. When they swap in and out, the defense knows what he's doing.

There is no doubt other teams would hire him. They score points.

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1 minute ago, lod001 said:

Brees would not be the Brees we see with Caldwell in Detroit or John Fox anywhere. He would have thrived bigly with Shanahan. He would be Brady with Belicheck.  Brees definitely benefitted from Payton's O philosophy, but over time, the overall team did not.  Simply his use of RB's is a disaster and he hasn't figured out that it doesn't work. That is where he is failing magnificently. When they swap in and out, the defense knows what he's doing.

There is no doubt other teams would hire him. They score points.

Doesn't work for who?  Sure, Monday was a disaster, but his running game has been pretty effective more often than not.  I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about FF teams.

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2 hours ago, meanjoegreen said:

The Saints have only had 4 winning seasons in the last decade. They did win a Super Bowl during that time, but I question whether they would have made the SB without their D trying to knock players out of the games.

And there are still about 20 teams that would gladly take it. 

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Gonna clue you guys into a little secret ...

... at the NFL level there is almost no difference between the top 25 head coaches.

Belichick was head coach and executive authority on personell for 4 season in CLE and went sub .500. Then he got Tom Brady and went nuts.

Players, not coaches.

 

Edited by Phenomena

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Just now, Phenomena said:

Gonna clue you guys into a little secret ...

... at the NFL level there is almost no difference between the top 25 head coaches.

Belichick was head coach and executive authority on personell for 4 season in CLE and went 0-4. Then he got Tom Brady and went nuts.

Players, not coaches.

 

I guess it is a secret because you are the only one that knows about it. 

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30 minutes ago, Phenomena said:

Gonna clue you guys into a little secret ...

... at the NFL level there is almost no difference between the top 25 head coaches.

Belichick was head coach and executive authority on personell for 4 season in CLE and went 0-4. Then he got Tom Brady and went nuts.

Players, not coaches.

 

0-4? for Super Bowl wins maybe but he got the to 12-6 including their last playoff win.....19 years ago.... in 1994, then Art Modell foolishly canned him after the next season and the rest is history.

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30 minutes ago, Phenomena said:

Gonna clue you guys into a little secret ...

... at the NFL level there is almost no difference between the top 25 head coaches.

Belichick was head coach and executive authority on personell for 4 season in CLE and went 0-4. Then he got Tom Brady and went nuts.

Players, not coaches.

 

I think I disagree with 100% of this post. Every single sentence. Are you implying that every team that doesn't win the Super Bowl is the same? Like Atlanta and Cleveland had the same 2016? Because that is what the "0-4" seems to imply.

I think coaches are more important than players in football. One player can only impact a sport with 11 guys on the field so much. Belichick is FAR more important to the Patriots run than Brady has been. Brady helps, obviously, but again, he's just one guy.

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48 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

Doesn't work for who?  Sure, Monday was a disaster, but his running game has been pretty effective more often than not.  I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about FF teams.

What he's doing doesn't work. See Carolina when they would let Williams or Stewart play the whole series. They were beastly. Then Fox got cute and started subbing in guys every few plays and they fell apart. That's where Payton is now. Ingram is simply better than the other 2 guys hands down, look at his career YPC, and he watches on the sidelines as Payton fails with his feeble plan.

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