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The Hillary Clinton thread. 'Done' but not going away. (2 Viewers)

I see a lot of people want to take me to task for arguing that Bernie didn’t help Hillary nearly as much as Hillary helped Obama. I stand by every word. I heard Bernie speak. His support was tepid. Until the very end he refused to cooperate with the Clinton campaign. 

But the most important thing was that he should have given public interviews denouncing the idea that the DNC fixed the nomination for Hillary. This is the biggest myth from the 2016 election. Hillary won because (1) she was much more popular overall (2) because Bernie made no inroads with older black voters and (3) because Bernie’s strongest supporters were voters under 30 and they didn’t show up on Election Day in large enough numbers. Full stop. Bernie should have publicly denounced this conspiracy theory and he didn’t. Shame on him. 

 
ren hoek said:
By "jacked," I mean unelected party hacks subverting the will of the people.  
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The will of what people?  The DNC executed the rules that Bernie agreed to.  If Bernie doesn't want to run in the Democratic primary, he's free to take his candidacy elsewhere.  

And by "party hacks", you mean the volunteers who have given decades of their free time, energy, and goodwill toward electing Democrats and working to advance progressive policies, right?  

 
tommyGunZ said:
I believe voters are responsible for the votes they cast.  If you're a liberal, progressive, or moderate Democrat, you have a responsibility to weigh your choices carefully and choose the best option, even if it's not the option you wish you had.  If you don't support the liberal, progressive, or moderate Democrat when the other choice is a bigoted, ignorant, conservative demagogue, you are responsible for that choice.  If/when the demagogue wins because you threw your vote away, you have to own the role you played in helping that demagogue attain power.  
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So in other words, you're saying that Hillary should fall in line and support Sanders if he wins the nomination, right?  How does it make you feel that Hillary is so openly resistant to doing so?

 
timschochet said:
But the most important thing was that he should have given public interviews denouncing the idea that the DNC fixed the nomination for Hillary. This is the biggest myth from the 2016 election. Hillary won because (1) she was much more popular overall (2) because Bernie made no inroads with older black voters and (3) because Bernie’s strongest supporters were voters under 30 and they didn’t show up on Election Day in large enough numbers. Full stop. Bernie should have publicly denounced this conspiracy theory and he didn’t. Shame on him. 
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Let me get this straight:

Hillary gets the debate questions ahead of time from CNN. Hillary goes on to win the nomination.

You're not mad at Hillary about this.

But you are mad that Bernie didn't do enough to stand up for her after she tried to cheat him out of the nomination?

(Don't get me wrong, I don't think the debate questions swung the primaries. But she cheated, and he's the one not doing enough to hide the fact she cheated?)

 
How can this possibly be confusing to all of you. the amount of time you all spend here, debating politics over and over and over.  And you can't pick this up.

Finally, someone somewhere in the democratic party woke up, had a Michael Moore moment, and realized their focus should be defeating Trump. Period. Nothing else. Nada.  

There isn't time now for progressive agendas.  There is no time for a socialist platform.  There is no time for reparations, climate change or anything else.  That comes later.  Now, RIGHT NOW, the focus is, was and should have always been BEAT TRUMP.

Now, Biden and possibly Bloomberg are the only two that can do this.  So the DNC, in conjunction with their media arm CNN and Hillary, have set their sights on hurting the candidates who are NOT Biden and Bloomberg.  

I mean come on.  It really doesn't get more simple.  

 
timschochet said:
I see a lot of people want to take me to task for arguing that Bernie didn’t help Hillary nearly as much as Hillary helped Obama. I stand by every word. I heard Bernie speak. His support was tepid. Until the very end he refused to cooperate with the Clinton campaign. 

But the most important thing was that he should have given public interviews denouncing the idea that the DNC fixed the nomination for Hillary. This is the biggest myth from the 2016 election. Hillary won because (1) she was much more popular overall (2) because Bernie made no inroads with older black voters and (3) because Bernie’s strongest supporters were voters under 30 and they didn’t show up on Election Day in large enough numbers. Full stop. Bernie should have publicly denounced this conspiracy theory and he didn’t. Shame on him. 
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if the bold above was not the case, why did Debbie Wasserman Schultz step down?

 
I would never vote for Bernie Sanders in a million years, but it's hard not to notice that between Elizabeth Warren's accusation, the CNN debate, and Hillary's out-of-nowhere attack, he's on the receiving end of an absurdly large number of cheap shots.

 
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supermike80 said:
How can this possibly be confusing to all of you. the amount of time you all spend here, debating politics over and over and over.  And you can't pick this up.

Finally, someone somewhere in the democratic party woke up, had a Michael Moore moment, and realized their focus should be defeating Trump. Period. Nothing else. Nada.  

There isn't time now for progressive agendas.  There is no time for a socialist platform.  There is no time for reparations, climate change or anything else.  That comes later.  Now, RIGHT NOW, the focus is, was and should have always been BEAT TRUMP.

Now, Biden and possibly Bloomberg are the only two that can do this.  So the DNC, in conjunction with their media arm CNN and Hillary, have set their sights on hurting the candidates who are NOT Biden and Bloomberg.  

I mean come on.  It really doesn't get more simple.  
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Bernie is outpolling Biden in swing states. You could argue Hillary's motive in trashing Bernie is it gives her a better shot to run again in 2024 because Biden has a greater chance of losing if he's the nominee.

 
KiddLattimer said:
If your teacher catches you with a cheat sheet under your arm, saying "but I didn't need to use it on the test" isn't a great defense
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 That’s fine if you want to rip Hillary for that. The point is many people to this day believe she would not have beaten Bernie without help from the DNC. That’s the myth part.

 
timschochet said:
 That’s fine if you want to rip Hillary for that. The point is many people to this day believe she would not have beaten Bernie without help from the DNC. That’s the myth part.
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I agree with you for the most part on that - my problem is with the DNC much more than Hillary.  But I understand the perspective that gunz and others have that Sanders wasn’t a Democrat so it’s ok they looked after one of their own.  The problem I have with that is when I only have two parties to pick from I’d like to pick one that wants me to be a part of the process and be fair to every candidate that also wants to be a part.  I thinks it’s fair to say they were not completely fair to Bernie but again, I don’t blame Hillary for that.

 
timschochet said:
 That’s fine if you want to rip Hillary for that. The point is many people to this day believe she would not have beaten Bernie without help from the DNC. That’s the myth part.
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Yea I agree with your point... Which really makes it sad. 

To the best of my knowledge he's never said anything publicly about getting cheated. I'm sure he could have pressed it and made life much more difficult for the DNC if he wanted to, but he took the high road and instead helped them get people in the door. That's part of why it irritates me when people slam him for it

 
AAABatteries said:
I agree with you for the most part on that - my problem is with the DNC much more than Hillary.  But I understand the perspective that gunz and others have that Sanders wasn’t a Democrat so it’s ok they looked after one of their own.  The problem I have with that is when I only have two parties to pick from I’d like to pick one that wants me to be a part of the process and be fair to every candidate that also wants to be a part.  I thinks it’s fair to say they were not completely fair to Bernie but again, I don’t blame Hillary for that.
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If that's the narrative they're going with, it makes the other narrative, that Sanders and everyone who supported him in the primary had some kind of duty to support/vote for HRC in the general, tenuous at best.

 
Gr00vus said:
If that's the narrative they're going with, it makes the other narrative, that Sanders and everyone who supported him in the primary had some kind of duty to support/vote for HRC in the general, tenuous at best.
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 I won’t speak for Gunz but that’s been my interpretation of it.  Apologies in advance if I misrepresented him

 
timschochet said:
 That’s fine if you want to rip Hillary for that. The point is many people to this day believe she would not have beaten Bernie without help from the DNC. That’s the myth part.
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Nixon won an election regardless of whether he used two-but burglars to break into the Watergate. 

 
Nipsey said:
Bernie is outpolling Biden in swing states. You could argue Hillary's motive in trashing Bernie is it gives her a better shot to run again in 2024 because Biden has a greater chance of losing if he's the nominee.
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RCP polling averages don’t support this - electability is Biden’s biggest strength right now.

FL, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +2.7

FL, Sanders vs. Trump: Tie

MI, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +6.7

MI, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +6.5

WI, Biden vs Trump: Biden +3.7

WI, Sanders vs Trump: Sanders +2.0

PA, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +7.0

PA, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +3.7

NC, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +3.4

NC, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +1.0

AZ, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +0.3

AZ, Sanders vs. Trump: Trump +5.0

TX, Biden vs. Trump: Trump +0.5

TX, Sanders vs. Trump: Trump +3.3

 
caustic said:
RCP polling averages don’t support this - electability is Biden’s biggest strength right now.

FL, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +2.7

FL, Sanders vs. Trump: Tie

MI, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +6.7

MI, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +6.5

WI, Biden vs Trump: Biden +3.7

WI, Sanders vs Trump: Sanders +2.0

PA, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +7.0

PA, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +3.7

NC, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +3.4

NC, Sanders vs. Trump: Sanders +1.0

AZ, Biden vs. Trump: Biden +0.3

AZ, Sanders vs. Trump: Trump +5.0

TX, Biden vs. Trump: Trump +0.5

TX, Sanders vs. Trump: Trump +3.3
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Interesting. I've seen recent polls that have Bernie doing better than Biden in some swing states. I glanced at this article from last week in USA Today this morning:
 

In the swing state of Florida, which has broken for the winner by slim margins in the last six presidential elections, former Vice President Joe Biden edged out Trump 51.4%-48.6% in a hypothetical matchup, according to a poll from Florida Atlantic University.

Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., performed even better, beating the president 52.9%-47.1%.
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I saw another recent poll that had him better in Michigan too.

 
Nipsey said:
Interesting. I've seen recent polls that have Bernie doing better than Biden in some swing states. I glanced at this article from last week in USA Today this morning:
 

I saw another recent poll that had him better in Michigan too.
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Yeah, there are a couple polls showing Bernie ahead of Biden but so far they’re a bit unusual. That FL poll referenced in USA Today, for example, is incorporated in those RCP averages I posted but Biden remains ahead there.

 
tommyGunZ said:
The will of what people?  The DNC executed the rules that Bernie agreed to.  If Bernie doesn't want to run in the Democratic primary, he's free to take his candidacy elsewhere.  

And by "party hacks", you mean the volunteers who have given decades of their free time, energy, and goodwill toward electing Democrats and working to advance progressive policies, right?  
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The will of the voters- as opposed to the will of the superdelegates. 

 
Looks like Hillary is going out of her way to make sure Trump wins again.  Let's face it, she has the embarrassing stain on her resume as having lost a presidential election to Donald Trump, and if a Democrat beats him in 2020, it makes her look even worse, but if another Democrat loses to Trump, a piece of the embarrassment pie can get taken away from Hillary and transferred to that person.  

 
Nipsey said:
Bernie is outpolling Biden in swing states. You could argue Hillary's motive in trashing Bernie is it gives her a better shot to run again in 2024 because Biden has a greater chance of losing if he's the nominee.
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Oh goodness.  I can't over explain this so I won't.  Just read my post.  This has nothing to do with Biden Vs Bernie.  It's about who can beat Trump.

Sigh

 
Sanders on Clinton comment: "On a good day, my wife likes me"

Clinton also backtracked a bit and says she will endorse nominee even if it is Bernie.

 
The old hag is positioning herself for a broken convention and the nomination. That or the fact that Bernie isn’t apart of the traditional power structure and those in power don’t want to lose their influence. Plus tbh Bernie will get smoked. 

 
supermike80 said:
Oh goodness.  I can't over explain this so I won't.  Just read my post.  This has nothing to do with Biden Vs Bernie.  It's about who can beat Trump.

Sigh
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It has to do with suppressing a populist movement again, like they did in 2016.  Hillary would rather Trump win than Sanders.  Trump preserves the status quo that Hillary fought for.  Sanders’ campaign is built on the idea of upending it.  

Sanders can snap his fingers and get a million dollars, while Biden has to sell out to corporate PACs because funding dried up.  Sanders draws big crowds to huge venues, Biden can barely pack a funeral home.  Sanders is lucid and can think straight- Biden struggles to remember which state he is in.  

He’s just sailing along on name recognition, not actual performance.  It won’t last.  Even Obama seems reluctant to support him.  Biden would get stomped hard.

 
ren hoek said:
It has to do with suppressing a populist movement again, like they did in 2016.  Hillary would rather Trump win than Sanders.  Trump preserves the status quo that Hillary fought for.  Sanders’ campaign is built on the idea of upending it.  

Sanders can snap his fingers and get a million dollars, while Biden has to sell out to corporate PACs because funding dried up.  Sanders draws big crowds to huge venues, Biden can barely pack a funeral home.  Sanders is lucid and can think straight- Biden struggles to remember which state he is in.  

He’s just sailing along on name recognition, not actual performance.  It won’t last.  Even Obama seems reluctant to support him.  Biden would get stomped hard.
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While I don't think Hillary is a Sanders fan, I also think it's a big stretch to think she would prefer Trump over Sanders. 

 
“I thought everyone wanted my authentic, unvarnished views! 

But to be serious, the number one priority for our country and world is retiring Trump, and, as I always have, I will do whatever I can to support our nominee.”. -HRC

You were saying, Ren? 

 
supermike80 said:
While I don't think Hillary is a Sanders fan, I also think it's a big stretch to think she would prefer Trump over Sanders. 
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I don’t think it is at all.  Think of how embarrassing it would be to have the narrative she’s propped up for the past 3 years collapse.  That it was Russia and Bernie bros and sexism and racism and fake news that cost her the election.  That everything else in the world was to blame for her defeat rather than her just being a #### candidate that people didn’t like.  That it should have been Sanders all along, and not her.  A Sanders win would be far more humiliating for her than a Trump win.  And if Sanders lost to Trump, she’d breathe the biggest sigh of relief of all time behind the scenes.  

I definitely think the donors and institutions Hillary served would prefer a Trump win over Sanders, no question.  A lot of people that spent the past 3 years pulling their hair out over Trump will change gears instantly if it turns out that Sanders is the nominee.  

These centrist pundits that cashed in on portraying Trump as a colossal threat to humanity (and the fall of the republic) will act like the big spooky “socialist” is a bridge too far, and stay home or go 3rd party or perhaps even vote for Trump.  It is so predictable, I can see it coming a mile away.  

 
tommyGunZ said:
“I thought everyone wanted my authentic, unvarnished views! 

But to be serious, the number one priority for our country and world is retiring Trump, and, as I always have, I will do whatever I can to support our nominee.”. -HRC

You were saying, Ren? 
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So that was her true self, and this is now the public position?  

 
ren hoek said:
I don’t think it is at all.  Think of how embarrassing it would be to have the narrative she’s propped up for the past 3 years collapse.  That it was Russia and Bernie bros and sexism and racism and fake news that cost her the election.  That everything else in the world was to blame for her defeat rather than her just being a #### candidate that people didn’t like.  That it should have been Sanders all along, and not her.  A Sanders win would be far more humiliating for her than a Trump win.  And if Sanders lost to Trump, she’d breathe the biggest sigh of relief of all time behind the scenes.  

I definitely think the donors and institutions Hillary served would prefer a Trump win over Sanders, no question.  A lot of people that spent the past 3 years pulling their hair out over Trump will change gears instantly if it turns out that Sanders is the nominee.  

These centrist pundits that cashed in on portraying Trump as a colossal threat to humanity (and the fall of the republic) will act like the big spooky “socialist” is a bridge too far, and stay home or go 3rd party or perhaps even vote for Trump.  It is so predictable, I can see it coming a mile away.  
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Is this real? 

 
supermike80 said:
While I don't think Hillary is a Sanders fan, I also think it's a big stretch to think she would prefer Trump over Sanders. 
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Of course it is.  You have to be a conspiracy theorist bordering on insanity to believe that HRC, who’s spent her life pursuing liberal policies benefiting women, is now suddenly secretly supporting the misogynistic narcissist who is proactively trying to imprison her.  It makes no logical sense whatsoever.  

 
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