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Puerto Rico & USVI (Hurricane Maria): The Storm & Recovery (1 Viewer)

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
My approach to things is to gather facts and reporting, and maybe we can all learn something. I don't open this with a criticism of President Trump, but I'm starting to read details about the lack of help. The Jones Act decision, the need for Trump to be pressed to send a hospital ship, this kind of thing.

Anyway, if there is news, let there be news, this does not have to be critical of Trump. My impression is our government has done a good job in Texas and Florida and that the FEMA Director has been qualified and hard working.

So at best post news and updates. Good luck to Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands.

 
Dr Detroit posted about going to PR to help with the relief efforts.
I'm going to forget the numbers, but they asked for something like 60 people form the 1500 that were there to help with the Texas/Georgia relief effort. Seemed like a small proportion to me.

If PR is a US territory and Puerto Ricans are US citizens, then they should get the same support as a mainland US citizen.

That being said, you can't exactly airdrop drinking water in for 1.5 million people. A basic survival level of .5 gallon per day is 750K gallons per day. Call it 6.3 million pounds when you account for packaging. A chinook can haul roughly 25K pounds. That would be 2520 drops just to ferry the minimal needed water for basic survival. If you want any water for hygiene or cooking, you have to at least double that number.

The army has 442 Chinooks in service.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the portmasters and the airport operators that didn't lock their areas down. Getting airports and seaports up and running is the biggest step to alleviating the crisis.

 
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Dr Detroit posted about going to PR to help with the relief efforts.
I'm going to forget the numbers, but they asked for something like 60 people form the 1500 that were there to help with the Texas/Georgia relief effort. Seemed like a small proportion to me.

If PR is a US territory and Puerto Ricans are US citizens, then they should get the same support as a mainland US citizen.
I read that, and it struck me, too. It pulls the curtain back a bit on what seems to be a disparity in the response so far. 

 
I read that, and it struck me, too. It pulls the curtain back a bit on what seems to be a disparity in the response so far. 
The only thought that gives me pause is the difficulty is inserting the team and required supplies. I don't really know the logistics state of PR. We hear that the ports were inoperable. A container ship isn't any good if there are no cranes left to unload.

If airport runways aren't clear, planes can't land and you're really down to just helicopters and smaller sea craft. You just can't bring in the supplies needed with that kind of setup.

Puerto Rico, like the rest of the USA, runs on just-in-time inventory either shipped direct from origin, or from US/LATAM distributor. There's no real contingency plan when the supply chain is interrupted.

 
I think in a vacuum without Harvey and Irma the response looks a lot different.

You have a disaster team that's stretched super thin right now.  I think it is a lot to ask for FPL to send lineman to PR after cleaning up Irma.  

How do you simply provide the level of support required to close on these items in a short time?  It isn't possible.  The approach needs to be fighting this as a refugee type crisis because serving people in place simply isn't practical.  

 
The only thought that gives me pause is the difficulty is inserting the team and required supplies. I don't really know the logistics state of PR. We hear that the ports were inoperable. A container ship isn't any good if there are no cranes left to unload.

If airport runways aren't clear, planes can't land and you're really down to just helicopters and smaller sea craft. You just can't bring in the supplies needed with that kind of setup.

Puerto Rico, like the rest of the USA, runs on just-in-time inventory either shipped direct from origin, or from US/LATAM distributor. There's no real contingency plan when the supply chain is interrupted.
I do get that. The logistics must be incredibly tough, but with our military capabilities, I feel like a solution could be had. It's hard to imagine they would have waited so many days, or proffered so many excuses, if this was in the continental US. I think they would have just done what needed to be done, no matter how tough, to save fellow Americans. I know that there are glaring examples to poke holes in that assertion, but I'm an optimist.

It's hard to overlook things like Trump focusing in on the NFL like a laser while not mentioning PR much, or that he had to be talked into obvious relief, or hedging on rescinding the Jones Act for PR. That, together with what looks like a disparity in response, doesn't look great.

And, yeah, we clearly need to rethink preparedness for these kinds of catastrophic events. I hadn't heard about those type of just-in-time inventory deliveries, but you're right that it's clearly a big issue.

 
Mentioning the PR debt crisis at this time makes for bad optics for Trump. If Kansas had a tornado outbreak would Trump mention their crisis in adequately funding education?

 
I do get that. The logistics must be incredibly tough, but with our military capabilities, I feel like a solution could be had. It's hard to imagine they would have waited so many days, or proffered so many excuses, if this was in the continental US. I think they would have just done what needed to be done, no matter how tough, to save fellow Americans. I know that there are glaring examples to poke holes in that assertion, but I'm an optimist.

It's hard to overlook things like Trump focusing in on the NFL like a laser while not mentioning PR much, or that he had to be talked into obvious relief, or hedging on rescinding the Jones Act for PR. That, together with what looks like a disparity in response, doesn't look great.

And, yeah, we clearly need to rethink preparedness for these kinds of catastrophic events. I hadn't heard about those type of just-in-time inventory deliveries, but you're right that it's clearly a big issue.
You expect our military to restore power and water?  Not really getting what we expect our military to do here that is within their skillset unless that means setting up tent cities?

 
You expect our military to restore power and water?  Not really getting what we expect our military to do here that is within their skillset unless that means setting up tent cities?
SID's link makes the point better than I could. 

I expect us to react as strongly for Puerto Ricans as we do/have for every other American. So far, it seems, we haven't. 

 
SID's link makes the point better than I could. 

I expect us to react as strongly for Puerto Ricans as we do/have for every other American. So far, it seems, we haven't. 
By "so far" I assume you mean the entire history of the United States' occupation of Puerto Rico.

None of this is new. It's highlighted right now because of the hurricane and the lack of power, but we have never treated Puerto Rico's infrastructure the way we treat the mainland or Hawaii. Our history there is shameful and it's been a case of taxation without representation that would make the Founding Fathers sick.

 
By "so far" I assume you mean the entire history of the United States' occupation of Puerto Rico.

None of this is new. It's highlighted right now because of the hurricane and the lack of power, but we have never treated Puerto Rico's infrastructure the way we treat the mainland or Hawaii. Our history there is shameful and it's been a case of taxation without representation that would make the Founding Fathers sick.
I was referring to this hurricane, but I completely agree with what you're saying here. I was trying to not muddy the overall point being discussed here, but you're right, the historical perspective helps to paint the whole picture. It's not a pretty one.

 
Puerto Rico, my heart's devotion

May it sink back in the ocean! 

Always the hurricanes blowing 

Always the population growing

And the money owing

And the sunlight streaming

And the natives screaming

 
Hearing about the Jones Act waiver seemed like good news, but then I read this article:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/mountains-of-aid-languish-on-docks-in-storm-stricken-san-juan

Thousands of cargo containers bearing millions of emergency meals and other relief supplies have been piling up on San Juan’s docks since Saturday. The mountains of materiel may not reach storm survivors for days.

Distributors for big-box companies and smaller retailers are unloading 4,000 20-foot containers full of necessities like food, water and soap this week at a dock in Puerto Rico’s capital operated by Crowley Maritime Corp.In the past few days, Tote Maritime’s terminal has taken the equivalent of almost 3,000. Even with moves to ease shipping to the island, like the Trump administration’s waiver of the Jones Act on Thursday, the facilities have become choke points in the effort to aid survivors of Hurricane Maria.

...

Trucks are ready to be loaded with the goods and precious diesel for backup generators, but workers aren’t around to drive. Instead, they’re caring for families and cleaning up flood damage -- and contending with the curfew.

The buildings that would receive supplies are destroyed and without electricity, Miller said. The transport companies that have staff available and diesel on hand encounter downed poles and power lines while navigating 80,000-pound tractor-trailers on delicate washed-out roads.

“It’s one thing to move a little car through there,” Miller said. “It’s another to move a semi truck.”

...

 
workers aren’t around to drive.
This is a problem. In NO after Katrina, it seemed like everyone (even the police) just left, or couldn't be found, or called, or was dealing with their own personal situation. We relied a lot on military, national guard, government and NGO workers, and volunteers.

 
The Feds have been taking evacuees' passports and having them sign a promissory note for the cost of evacuation.  So they're being quite diligent on something anyway. 

 
Um, really? Do you happen to know if that in any way normal for evacuations? 
It depends. It's not insanely abnormal, but usually evacuations of that nature are small scale.  It's not like the entire population of Puerto Rico could have left - it's a complex issue to deal with I'm sure. 

 
timschochet said:
By "so far" I assume you mean the entire history of the United States' occupation of Puerto Rico.

None of this is new. It's highlighted right now because of the hurricane and the lack of power, but we have never treated Puerto Rico's infrastructure the way we treat the mainland or Hawaii. Our history there is shameful and it's been a case of taxation without representation that would make the Founding Fathers sick.
Puerto Ricans don't pay personal income tax.  They pay Social Security and Medicare only.   They are like another state in some regards, but not others including Federal income tax. 

 
Henry Ford said:
The Feds have been taking evacuees' passports and having them sign a promissory note for the cost of evacuation.  So they're being quite diligent on something anyway. 
What does this mean? - If someone from San Juan flies or takes a ship to Miami, are they obligated to pay for something?

 
What does this mean? - If someone from San Juan flies or takes a ship to Miami, are they obligated to pay for something?
Reportedly, If they're being evacuated, yes. And they don't get their passports back until they do. 

I don't have any first hand information on this happening, but it's not a new thing for the government to do this. 

 
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We sent 24,000 troops, 200 aircraft and 2 dozen ships to Japan after the triple disaster in 2011.  Our reluctance to even come close to matching that type of response to our own citizens is appalling.  Completely appalling.

Comparing the timeline of Operation Tomodachi here to what we've accomplished so far in Puerto Rico is unacceptable.

Then you add in the insult of Trump bringing up their dire financial straits as well.  Pathetic.   

 
We sent 24,000 troops, 200 aircraft and 2 dozen ships to Japan after the triple disaster in 2011.  Our reluctance to even come close to matching that type of response to our own citizens is appalling.  Completely appalling.

Comparing the timeline of Operation Tomodachi here to what we've accomplished so far in Puerto Rico is unacceptable.

Then you add in the insult of Trump bringing up their dire financial straits as well.  Pathetic.   
This situation really shouldn't be political. It just blurs what help is needed and spreads misinformation. Besides the airport issue between Japan and PR (Japan still had working airports), PR air shipments began before airports even had electricity restored), we have already flown 213 sorties and delivered 3,000,000 pounds of supplies.

This is a military and FEMA operation. The PR recovery is a logistical nightmare. Lack of preparation, partly due to debt, will be one of the root causes of casualties after the fact.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/09/28/us-troops-deliver-food-supplies-to-devastated-puerto-rico-during-round-the-clock-operations/

ETA: The Air National Guard has delivered an additional 2,000,000 pounds of supplies. You're talking about 750K gallons of water needed daily. That's nearly 6 million pounds of itself. Supplying by air isn't a long term solution.
 

 
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This situation really shouldn't be political. It just blurs what help is needed and spreads misinformation. Besides the airport issue between Japan and PR (Japan still had working airports), PR air shipments began before airports even had electricity restored), we have already flown 213 sorties and delivered 3,000,000 pounds of supplies.

This is a military and FEMA operation. The PR recovery is a logistical nightmare. Lack of preparation, partly due to debt, will be one of the root causes of casualties after the fact.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/09/28/us-troops-deliver-food-supplies-to-devastated-puerto-rico-during-round-the-clock-operations/

ETA: The Air National Guard has delivered an additional 2,000,000 pounds of supplies. You're talking about 750K gallons of water needed daily. That's nearly 6 million pounds of itself. Supplying by air isn't a long term solution.
 
Water is going to be a big problem. I hope someone has that LifeStraw company helping. 

 
Water is going to be a big problem. I hope someone has that LifeStraw company helping. 
I have one and keep meaning to add a couple more. I've never had to use, but it seems to be an amazing invention. There is a new model with replaceable filters that seems to be even better.

https://lifestraw.eartheasy.com/products/lifestraw-go-with-2-stage-filtration?variant=21061081603&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=LifeStraw%3A Shopping%3A Product%3A USA&utm_term=1101204380617&utm_content=Shopping%3A LifeStraw Go 2-Stage

I realize that it reeks of unfairness to insist that a population that's suffered through a prolonged, severe recession and 25% unemployment should spend $100 to ensure drinking water...but when you look at the alternative, there's some level of personal responsibility.

 
Lotta water surrounding that island. Big water.
I expect several tweets along the lines of "The left is calling for desalination stations to provide fresh water to Puerto Rico! Stupid liberals don't know you need salt to live! Sad!"

 
for context:

US response to Haiti earthquake, 2010: 2 days 8000 troops

To Puerto Rico post-Maria, 2017: 8 days 4400 troops

(Note: Both are islands in a big ocean)

 
for context:

US response to Haiti earthquake, 2010: 2 days 8000 troops

To Puerto Rico post-Maria, 2017: 8 days 4400 troops

(Note: Both are islands in a big ocean)
To be fair....the Haiti quake killed a couple hundred thousand people...

Is there any real benefit in doing these comparisons?  Is it helpful?  

 
To be fair....the Haiti quake killed a couple hundred thousand people...

Is there any real benefit in doing these comparisons?  Is it helpful?  
Dude.. how can you say this with a straight face?

ONE IS THE UNITED STATES WITH 3.5 MILLION US CITIZENS

U. S.  Citizens.

If that doesn't warrant as great a response as we can muster (and as demonstrated by what you quoted, we've gotten twice the troops in half the time to a foreign nation), what does?

 
Tuesday ought to be fun for everyone. If Melania joins him to tour PR, I wonder if she'll wear heels again? 

 
safarishane‏ @safarishane 4h4 hours ago

This isn't going to be Trump's Katrina.

This is going to be Trump's Trail of Tears.

 

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