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Catalan Referendum (1 Viewer)

Sinn Fein

Footballguy
Did not see (or look for) a thread on this - but, its an intriguing look at a constitutional crisis that we could see play out here in the not too distant future.

I have not heard our dear President speak on this - but its an interesting dilemma for pro-democracy, and pro-nationalist movements.

I don't know enough about the Catalan situation other than the reports of Spain declaring today's vote to be illegal, and have sent in the equivalent of the National Guard to seize ballots, and close polling stations.  Obviously the vote would not be binding, but I am curious why they would not let the vote go ahead to see the results.  While a lot of people wanted an independent state - its already semi-autonomous - its not unanimous - many have come to accept their Spanish union.

Interested to hear more from people who know more about the situation.

 
This is a horrible thing for Spain. The way it started is that after Franco, who had suppressed everything regional, not just in Catalonia but also Galicia and other regions, a much more federal concept of doing things was developed. So regions got to have their language and flag not to mention things like control over finances and the like. This wasn't just a Catalonia thing but being as wealthy as they are it was magnified for them. So this post-Franco agreement lasted a long time and it worked well. All that was thrown into chaos around 10 years ago when the Spanish Supreme Court curtailed the effects of the agreement. A lot of that had to do with what else money. However the central government and the parliament have never been able to ratify what Catalonia believed was originally agreed to in the 70s, so here we are. People who love Spain are hoping this thing goes away and ultimately the parliament just recognizes Catalonian autonomy within the Spanish system.

 
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Trump did briefly speak of his support for a unified Spain during a joint presser with Rajoy earlier this week. 

 
And there was another thread, but it was started with an inflammatory article from our resident anarchist.

 
I shudder ti think what would go down in the US if the police blocked and beat innocent voters in a November election. I can say though that there would be a LOT of violence.

 
I shudder ti think what would go down in the US if the police blocked and beat innocent voters in a November election. I can say though that there would be a LOT of violence.
A November election to secede? Because that is exactly what we are talking about here.

When that was last tried in the US there were indeed a lot of deaths.

Those innocent "voters" were forcibly held in the Union

 
A November election to secede? Because that is exactly what we are talking about here.

When that was last tried in the US there were indeed a lot of deaths.

Those innocent "voters" were forcibly held in the Union
We agree, then. I was not specifying secession, but voting in general. 

 
We agree, then. I was not specifying secession, but voting in general. 
Yes. I thought it was relevant to put it in those terms, because that is exactly what the Catalans want, to secede.

However ham handed the Spanish government seems, they are defending their union and their constitution

 
Yes. I thought it was relevant to put it in those terms, because that is exactly what the Catalans want, to secede.

However ham handed the Spanish government seems, they are defending their union and their constitution
They could have let Catalonia just throw its fit.  Good chance the referendum fails and no issue at all.  Should the referendum pass, then they could have starting dropping hammers.  I think more sensible heads would have prevailed with this referendum anyway.  How could Catalonia survive by itself?

 
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How could Catalonia survive by itself?
That is a complicated question. Currently they are the richest province in Spain and part of the quarrel is that they contribute more to the rest of Spain than they get back in "investments". But their industries etc are intertwined with the rest of Spain and as the Scots were told for their referendum a couple of years back EUbwould put them at the back of the queue for trade negotiations....

 
That is a complicated question. Currently they are the richest province in Spain and part of the quarrel is that they contribute more to the rest of Spain than they get back in "investments". But their industries etc are intertwined with the rest of Spain and as the Scots were told for their referendum a couple of years back EUbwould put them at the back of the queue for trade negotiations....
Thanks.  This is how I understand it as well.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/29/news/economy/catalonia-independence-spain-economy/index.html

"We currently see no practical way for Catalonia to become an independent country within the EU, as most supporters of independence want," economists at Berenberg Bank wrote in a research note.

Dropping out of bloc would likely raise the cost of exporting goods produced in Catalonia to EU members and other nations.

"It would join the small list of countries that are not World Trade Organization members, meaning it would face significant trade barriers," said Stephen Brown, an economist at Capital Economics.

Brown said the move would increase the price of imported goods in Catalonia and result in job losses.

Independence could also make it more expensive for the region's government to borrow. Credit ratings agencies Moody's and S&P both downgraded Catalonia's debt rating in 2016.

The region could continue using the euro as its currency, but would not have a seat at the European Central Bank.

 
I really enjoy playing the game, not sure it needs any major changes.

The expansion packs are pretty good.  It's all about hoarding the ore...when your number hits, go for the longest road and maybe biggest army and you'll be in good shape.

 
adonis said:
I really enjoy playing the game, not sure it needs any major changes.

The expansion packs are pretty good.  It's all about hoarding the ore...when your number hits, go for the longest road and maybe biggest army and you'll be in good shape.
Catalonia is a mining state?  And obviously no army to speak of since their populace just got the #### kicked out of it.  

You're never going to make platinum with strategies like this...

 
Umm- my daughter, a senior in high school, is taking AP Spanish 4, and is considering going to Barcelona with the class for spring break. Maybe that's not such a good idea? 

 
No idea - tough to tell since the Spanish police have tried to block the voting booths.
Right but the circumstances make the voting results meaningless without voter turnout %. If things were as dangerous as they looked, it is likely that the people going out into it to vote would be extremely pro separation. Also since the vote was deemed illegal by Spain, its very likely people with separatist leanings were going to be overly represented even without the threat of violence.

 
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Right but the circumstances make the voting results meaningless without voter turnout %. If things were as dangerous as they looked, it is likely that the people going out into it to vote would be extremely pro separation. Also since the vote was deemed illegal by Spain, its very likely people with separatist leanings were going to be overly represented even without the threat of violence.
No doubt, though the last vote was very close.  This vote was also supposed to be very close until the Spanish govt. tried to shut it down.  Then it swung way against them (very predictable).  The Spanish PM is an idiot.

From reports only 330 or so of the polling stations were closed out of a few thousand.  And most of those in Barcelona.  So there was the opportunity for a largish turnout.

 
No doubt, though the last vote was very close.  This vote was also supposed to be very close until the Spanish govt. tried to shut it down.  Then it swung way against them (very predictable).  The Spanish PM is an idiot.

From reports only 330 or so of the polling stations were closed out of a few thousand.  And most of those in Barcelona.  So there was the opportunity for a largish turnout.
Sure but if there is news of danger and you have a conservative pro Nationals or are just middle of the road people, are they really motivated to go out and vote? 

Regardless, Spain screwed this thmg so badly and given the Catalan movement an incredible victory on several fronts.

 
Also, I think we can drop the pretense of liberal values democracy freedoms in the West.  It'd boil down to militarized goons in body armor here too.  

 
Also, I think we can drop the pretense of liberal values democracy freedoms in the West.  It'd boil down to militarized goons in body armor here too.  
If we voted to disband the United States? Absolutely.  Probably the most complex question a democracy can face: how to deal with some section wanting to disband the democracy itself. 

 
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If we voted to disband the United States? Absolutely.  Probably the most complex question a democracy can face: how to deal with someone wanting to disband the democracy itself. 
This will all get a lot easier when people realize violence is wrong.  

 
I don't.  Ask the Scots.  Or the Irish. 
The Irish who broke away from the U.K. In 1921 weren't living under a democracy. The U.K. had a democracy everywhere else but in Ireland it was a dictatorship. 

Scotland's a different story, but I think there are laws in place which allow them to withdraw (which was not the case here.) 

 
The Irish who broke away from the U.K. In 1921 weren't living under a democracy. The U.K. had a democracy everywhere else but in Ireland it was a dictatorship. 

Scotland's a different story, but I think there are laws in place which allow them to withdraw (which was not the case here.) 
The Irish who haven't broken away from the UK are considering it as are the Scots.  And I didn't say anything about laws or lack of laws when making my statement. 

 
Only 42% of eligible voters voted (far fewr that previous nin binding votes). Many (pro Spain) voters stayed home to not legitimize the vote. It's essentially useless, but then again it always would be.
And many didn't have a place to vote.

 

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