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Catalan Referendum (1 Viewer)

It is reality.  None of them consented to or asked for any of this.  That is the real world.  The notion that a handful of people deserve to have control over a second group of people, forever, based on an arbitrary piece of paper the second party never acknowledged is fantasy.  
Have a nice day.

 
There is no agreement.  Those people there didn't agree to anything.  

Just for the record, if it comes down to violence on the part of Spain to force Catalonians to stay, do you believe Spain would be morally justified?  
Now it is claimed the provincial government did not represent the people. That's nuts.

 
I think they are going about it as peacefully as possible. They certainly aren't the one initiating violence.    

It is reality.  None of them consented to or asked for any of this.  That is the real world.  The notion that a handful of people deserve to have control over a second group of people, forever, based on an arbitrary piece of paper the second party never acknowledged is fantasy.  

What gets me is seeing people I would think have respect for human rights, the basic dignity of self-determination, actually believe in violence and authoritarianism.  What's so bad about letting them go?  
I think they're allowed to go, they just don't get to take 8-10% of Spain's land with them. 

 
Didn't the Slavs take land from the Czechs? What was the whole Kosovo action about? How is this different than other fairly recent European separatist actions, but the CATALANS are the wealthy, instead of the beleaguered?

 
Gawain said:
Didn't the Slavs take land from the Czechs? What was the whole Kosovo action about? How is this different than other fairly recent European separatist actions, but the CATALANS are the wealthy, instead of the beleaguered?
You can't remotely compare the two. Spain has been a cohesive nation for centuries. 

 
Spanish Leader Opens Door to Suspending Some of Catalonia’s Powers

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy demands regional leader clarify whether he declared independence

BARCELONA—Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy set a Monday deadline for Catalonia’s leader to clarify whether he declared independence, taking the first step toward potentially stripping the region of some of its powers and escalating his confrontation with the separatists.

Mr. Rajoy on Wednesday accused the separatist leader Carles Puigdemont of deliberately sowing confusion the prior night by declaring the region an independent republic based on the results of an unauthorized referendum, but immediately asking lawmakers to suspend the declaration.

Mr. Rajoy’s demand opens the way to the unprecedented implementation of a constitutional provision that allows the government to revoke some of a region’s power if its actions threaten Spain’s interests.

“The response that the [Catalan] leader gives to today’s demand will determine the future of events over the next days,” Mr. Rajoy said.

But Mr. Rajoy also assured lawmakers in Madrid on Wednesday that he remained open to dialogue. The prime minister said he had started talks with a main opposition party to debate changes to Spain’s constitution.

Some lawmakers have called for amendments that would allow Catalonia and Spain’s 16 other autonomous regions to hold a referendum on independence, as long as all Spaniards can vote. Others are pushing to grant Catalonia greater powers in addition to the control it has over its regional police force, schools and health system. Such changes could undermine separatists’ argument that Madrid isn’t willing to budge to meet Catalans’ demands.

The Spanish prime minister must strike a delicate balance as he works to keep his country whole, upholding Spanish law while not inadvertently antagonizing the Catalan majority and triggering more separatist support and street protests.

Mr. Rajoy and other political leaders see Catalan authorities’ offer to talk as a negotiating tactic and an attempt to garner international sympathy for their cause. Catalan lawmakers have requested international mediation over the issue.

“I can’t negotiate when the negotiations consists of ‘referendum no matter what,’” Mr. Rajoy told lawmakers. “Mediation isn’t possible between what’s lawful and what’s disobedient and illegal.”

Thousands of people rallied on Sunday in central Barcelona to protest plans by Catalonia's regional government to secede from Spain. Photo: Getty Images

Spanish courts have repeatedly said it is unconstitutional for a region to take steps to break with the rest of the country. Opposition lawmakers also backed Mr. Rajoy’s rejection of outside mediation, saying the national parliament is the appropriate place for such negotiations.

Mr. Rajoy’s demand for clarification opens the way to the unprecedented implementation of a constitutional provision that allow allows the government to revoke some of a region’s power if its actions threaten Spain’s interests. Spain’s constitution pledges to uphold the country’s “indissoluble unity.”

“If Mr. Puigdemont shows his willingness to respect the law and re-establish institutional normality, it would put an end to a period of instability, tension and a fracture to [our] coexistence,” said Mr. Rajoy in televised remarks.

Mr. Rajoy said that the Catalan leader had until Monday at 10 a.m. to clarify whether he had declared independence. If Mr. Puigdemont confirms that he did—or if he doesn’t respond by the deadline—he would then have until Oct. 19 to rectify his secessionist bid.

If Mr. Puigdemont didn’t back down, the government would then ask the upper house of parliament to approve the suspension of some of the region’s powers. The government must specify which functions—for instance, the regional police force—are to come under Madrid’s control.

Mr. Rajoy’s base broadly supports a hard line against Catalan separatists, and surveys show that a majority of Spaniards support unity. Pro-union groups gathered hundreds of thousands of people in Barcelona on Sunday to call on Catalan leaders to halt their bid to split with Spain. Leaders from two of Spain’s main opposition parties, the Socialist Party and Ciudadanos, have expressed support for Mr. Rajoy’s efforts.

But a heavy-handed response could also help Mr. Puigdemont to unite a hodgepodge of separatist groups who want an independent Catalonia but divided in the best way to get there. Some observers believe separatist sentiment has risen since Spanish police clashed with voters during an Oct. 1 referendum on independence.

Mr. Puigdemont declared Catalonia an independent republic on Tuesday based on the results of that referendum but then immediately asked regional lawmakers to suspend that declaration for a number of weeks to allow Catalan leaders more time to negotiate with the central government.

Mr. Puigdemont’s “ambiguity is aimed at putting pressure on Madrid,” said Antonio Barroso, analyst at Teneo Intelligence, a consulting firm. “By saying that he is open to negotiations, [Mr. Puigdemont] wants to tag Rajoy with the blame of any tensions” that could flare up in the coming days.

While Mr. Puigdemont’s statement on Tuesday was a watered-down version of the immediate and unilateral break with Spain some hard-line separatists had been pushing for, Mr. Rajoy said the Catalan leader was still flouting the rule of law. Mr. Puigdemont and dozens of separatist lawmakers also signed a document Tuesday night proclaiming Catalonia’s independence from Spain, but the legal status was initially unclear.

Mr. Rajoy’s demands also put Mr. Puigdemont in a tight corner. If the Catalan leader responds by confirming he declared independence, the government is likely to trigger the constitutional provision, known as Article 155.

But if he backs off, hard-line members of the Catalan government could withdraw their support. Mr. Puigdemont’s coalition holds a majority of seats in the regional parliament thanks to the support of lawmakers advocating immediate secession from Spain.

Before Mr. Rajoy spoke, the spokesman for Catalonia’s government, Jordi Turull said that if the Spanish government “applies [Article] 155, it means there is no willingness for dialogue. And then we must be consistent with what we have committed to with the people of Catalonia,” implying the drive for independence.

Around 40% of Catalonia’s five million eligible voters cast a ballot in the independence referendum, in which nine out of 10 voted in favor of secession, according to regional officials. The referendum was plagued by irregularities, however, and was boycotted by parties opposing independence.


 

 
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Rajoy seems determined to bring this to the brink.
What is his alternative under the constitution?

The Catalans are certainly seeking the brink and beyond. They are virtually certain to wreck their own economy, eliminate jobs and decrease security, regardless of whether they actually have declared secession or not.

It's an effed up situation

 
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As a former resident of Madrid and a fairly avowed leftist, I am pretty conflicted here.  I think both sides are acting poorly, but I don't see a way out of this unless one side backs down.  I really don't know or even pretend to know the will of the Catalan people.  Maybe they should do a referendum across the entire nation to see if Catalunya gets to be allowed to leave.

 
Looking forward to seeing people rationalize violence and brutality to crush dissent in the name of western liberalism.  #notbrutalorcruel 

 
So, Puigdemont still refuses to answer whether he has declared independence or not, possibly hoping for a(nother) Rajoy overreaction.

So, the smart thing for Rajoy to do is to ignore them, simply state "They havent formally declared independence so there is nothing to react to, other than posturing by the regional council. We move on, business as usual".

If at a later stage Puigdemont then moves forward they can trigger article 155, or if funds are withheld or diverted, they can prosecute that.

Rajoy, however, is not smart.

 
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There's a strong and vocal minority in Spain that wants a return to a republic. Mostly leftists, although some old timers were cool with Juan Carlos, but didn't see the point after his reign.

I think many Catalans see no point in the monarchy.

 
The Z Machine said:
There's a strong and vocal minority in Spain that wants a return to a republic. Mostly leftists, although some old timers were cool with Juan Carlos, but didn't see the point after his reign.

I think many Catalans see no point in the monarchy.
They also see no point in Spain, in general, so....

 
Political prisoners, police brutality, internet censorship, and disgraceful apathy in 2017 EU.  If there was ever any doubt that western liberalism is hypocritical trash when push comes to shove this makes it plainly obvious.  

Spain is Operating Way Beyond Democratic Legitimacy 

19 Oct, 2017  

In imprisoning Catalan leaders for peaceful campaigning for Independence, and in choosing both in rhetoric and in court to treat support for Independence as “sedition”, the Spanish government is acting way beyond the limits of a democratic society. It is ignoring the basic human rights of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. It is also undertaking massive blocking of communication and censorship of the internet in a manner never seen before in a “Western” state.

To move now to suspend the democratically elected Catalan administration, which is explicitly offering dialogue as an alternative to UDI, is to escalate the crisis in an unreasonable fashion, in the true meaning of the word unreasonable. All of this is truly dreadful, without even mentioning the violence inflicted on voters taking part in the peaceful Independence referendum.

As regular readers know, the EU reaction to the peaceful movement for Catalan independence has caused me to rethink my entire position on that institution. The failure to condemn the violence and human rights abuse has been bad enough, but the EU has gone still further and offered unqualified support to Spain, with the Commission specifically declaring Spain has a right to use violence, and Juncker saying straight out that the EU opposes Catalan Independence.

What has become more clear to me is that the modern state is simply an engine to enable the elite to control and direct its economic resources to their own benefit, those economic resources including the people. Loss of resources to the ruling elite is therefore a catastrophe. A state is not a collaborative construct voluntarily formed for mutual convenience and protection by its people. If it were, then it would be a matter of indifference to the ruling elite which particular state units people choose to form, and how these morph and form.

The idea, endorsed by the EU, that a state is an economic construct of control, in which it is legitimate to constrain entire peoples by force against their will, is surely abhorrent. The EU is become simply a cartel of power, a club to promote the sectional interest of the controlling elites of European states.

Catalonia will have a few days to decide how to react to Spanish imposition of direct rule, as that has to go through legislative bodies in Madrid. Catalonia has very little capacity militarily to defend itself against Spain. But it is difficult to see how it can be serious about Independence if it makes no effort to that purpose. Some effort at physical, if non-lethal, resistance to Spanish takeover must surely be under discussion.

More importantly, however brief the lifespan of Independent Catalonia at this stage, it must during its existence delegitimise Spanish – by which I mean pre-Independence – institutions and specifically the courts. Within Catalonia, all officers of State, and particularly judges, prosecutors and law enforcement officers, must be suspended immediately from all duties. They should then be instantly administered an oath of loyalty to the Catalan state and a specific abjuring of loyalty to the Spanish state. Those who do not take the oath would remain suspended, and after a week become dismissed.

The alternative will be an undermining of the legitimacy of the Catalan state by its own courts, and the many corrupt pro-Madrid judges and prosecutors they contain. This will be used to counteract the Independence narrative internationally and domestically.

Spain and the EU are hiding behind “the rule of law”. The violence of the Guardia Civil was validated as enforcing the ruling of Francoist judges. The censorship of the internet, the imprisonment of dissidents, all is in accordance with the “rule of law” in Spain.

I dealt with imprisonment of political prisoners all round the world when I was in the FCO. Very few of them were extra-judicially detained. Uzbekistan’s 8,000 political prisoners have almost all been tried and condemned under Uzbek law. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Ken Saro Wiwa, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, all were imprisoned by judges. The “rule of law”, where it ignores human rights, is not enough. That is the line the EU, to its great shame, has crossed.

As a footnote, I am researching my biography of George Murray. In 1710, following the death of George’s eldest brother John with the British army at the Battle of Malplaquet, his next eldest brother William was summoned home from India. The first available vessel was bound for Barcelona. William spent some time there waiting for a ship in the middle of a war. The interesting point is that the family letters refer repeatedly to William being in Catalonia and events in Catalonia. The word Spain does not appear in the correspondence at all.

I mention this purely as illustrative – and one of many thousands of examples that might be given – that the Catalans are a people and have been acknowledged as such in Europe for centuries. The right of self-determination in Article 2 of the UN Charter is given not to geographic regions but exclusively to “Peoples”. The Catalans, like the Scots, undoubtedly qualify as a “People”, something the EU has still failed to address.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/spain-operating-way-beyond-democratic-legitimacy/

 
It would be nice if they could influence Rajoy behind the scenes to formulate a settlement.
How? 

The Spanish constitution says Rajoy is right and Catalunya cannot become independent. And it seems nothing less that full independence will satisfy Puidgemont (sp?)

 
How? 

The Spanish constitution says Rajoy is right and Catalunya cannot become independent. And it seems nothing less that full independence will satisfy Puidgemont (sp?)
Maybe I need to dig deep on this but it seems to me Catalunya was simply used to the old autonomy arrangement. I see the suspension of independence as a gesture seeking settlement, the government should negotiate to determine what can be done. 

 
Maybe I need to dig deep on this but it seems to me Catalunya was simply used to the old autonomy arrangement. I see the suspension of independence as a gesture seeking settlement, the government should negotiate to determine what can be done. 
Catalunya still has the old autonomy arrangement in full as I understand it. Once article 155 is invoked, not so much

 
This is an interesting article.

How fake news helped shape the Catalonia independence vote

“We've had to be specially watchful with images depicting supposed victims of the police and the civil guard on the first of October,” Cruz told me. Most, she said, “turned out to be pictures from the past which had no relation whatsoever with the voting and also pictures of alleged right-wing demonstrators doing the Nazi salute with the Spanish flag which, many of them, were also pictures from other demonstrations.”

There aren't a lot of specifics yet, but I've been seeing this claim crop up over the last few weeks. No definitive attribution yet, but the dissemination of fake news pertaining to violence has been uncovered. Considering we've seen that specific fake news about the nazi salute show up here, I think it displays the insidious nature and effectiveness of this particular tactic.

ETA: I don't think this applies to all violent interactions between the state and Catalunya. I just found it interesting that we have fake news exacerbating yet another situation.  

 
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Not that a piece of paper justifies enslaving people forever, but even if it did the constitution isn't valid by its own definition.  

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards;

it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.


 
I have family in Spain. I have more cousins there than I do here. They live in an area with its own language & flag. They are happy, proud & Spanish.

 
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Galicia. 
Nice.  One of the few parts of Spain I haven't visited.  Their language sounds so interesting to someone who took a few years of Portuguese in addition to my Spanish. 

Has Galicia had any big historical attempts at separatism like the other major regions? 

 
Rajoy invokes article 155. 

As if that is going to solve anything. The next Catalan parliament will be even more radical as the seditionist parties will be energized

 
Nice.  One of the few parts of Spain I haven't visited.  Their language sounds so interesting to someone who took a few years of Portuguese in addition to my Spanish. 

Has Galicia had any big historical attempts at separatism like the other major regions? 
No not really that I know of. They had the same post-Franco flowering of language and culture. Portugal has the delusion it somehow belongs to them but Galicia is very proud of its role in Spanish and Iberian history.

 
No not really that I know of. They had the same post-Franco flowering of language and culture. Portugal has the delusion it somehow belongs to them but Galicia is very proud of its role in Spanish and Iberian history.
In my travels around the world I have found a very significant correlation between fishing and Galicians

 
In my travels around the world I have found a very significant correlation between fishing and Galicians
Yep they're all over the world as fishermen, and one of the great diasporas. - To tie it in, they also were on the forefront of the Spanish Civil War. It pisses me off beyond belief that people from outside the country would try to sow discord and strife in a nation which suffered so much from it in the past.

 
Escalation - 

Link

 In a major escalation of Spain’s territorial conflict, Catalan lawmakers approved the region’s independence on Friday, a move that was quickly countered by a vote in the Spanish Senate authorizing the government to take direct control of the fractious region and remove its separatist leadership.

 
Escalation - 

Link

 In a major escalation of Spain’s territorial conflict, Catalan lawmakers approved the region’s independence on Friday, a move that was quickly countered by a vote in the Spanish Senate authorizing the government to take direct control of the fractious region and remove its separatist leadership.
Neither is really an escalation. It's both sides putting their money where their mouth has been the past month. 

Inevitable, once the vote was called.

 
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