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adonis

"Me too" - A discussion of a guy's responsibility for rampant sexism and assault in society

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4 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Here is a review of what you characterize as "doing everything she could to put accusers in their place."  It's not ideal behavior, even if these were strangers accusing her husband. But acting like supporting her amounts to supporting sexual harassment and assault is completely absurd.

More than that, I'd say it's actually a symptom of the problem. It is telling that in response to the allegations against both Bill Clinton and Harvey Weinstein, the right has spent countless hours and words attempting to place some sort of blame at the feet of a woman.  In fact I'd argue that with respect to Weinstein they've spent far more time vilifying a woman than they have expressing outrage about Weinstein and discussing ways to prevent that sort of thing from happening in the future. It says something about their priorities.

I fully supported Bill Clinton's impeachment back when that was an unpopular position.  I'm not the one who needs to establish his bona fidas on this issue.  I also supported the decision to boot Bob Packwood.  I'm all in favor of throwing Clinton, Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Trump, etc to the curb.  I'm just asking for Hillary supporters to drop the sanctimony here.  We know their outrage is selective.  Mine isn't.

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7 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I know you fancy yourself. A lot. I know you think you are pretty amazing, and pretty much know everything but...

Here is a clue, if there is a thread about helping to prevent sexual harassment and things that can be done and the only thing you have done is defend Hillary Clinton in that thread, you might want to just move along and keep your mouth shut.

 

 

Take down!  2 points awarded.

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17 hours ago, adonis said:

I mean, I think we all have known it was bad, yet this kind of thing persists.  Should there be any additional stuff we should do, speak out more when we see something, explicitly teach our kids differently, etc.

Well, if you didn't do that already, now's a good time to start

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Serious answer: We need a complete culture change. We can talk all we want about treating women equally, sexual harassment being bad, etc, etc, but we absolutely objectivize women and it starts from there.

We have a culture that constantly encourages us to use women for our personal sexual gratification. Call me a prude or whatever, but the consumption of porn is out of control. And that chips away at how we view women and relationships. I don't think the vast majority of guys have any intent to disrespect or dehumanize women when viewing porn, but I think our brains subconsciously start to link our personal gratification with a woman's looks. For the vast majority of guys it doesn't turn them into slobbering neanderthals, but it does very subtly shift our attitude. And for some guys, it goes much further and leads to truly awful behavior.

And culture as a whole just slowly slides in the wrong direction (or maybe it just is allowed to remain in a bad direction despite us KNOWING better).

Look at how many people looked at the stolen images from female celebrities. IMO, just looking at those pictures was a sexual violation of those women. And how many men looked despite KNOWING that, but figuring that nobody would see that violation?

Or how about the many threads on women in the FFA? I'm sure most view them as innocuous, but if you pause and look at how women that none of even know are talked about is rather appalling. We talk about how women need to add weight, lose weight, how their breasts are too big, too small, etc etc. As if they exist to serve our visual sexual desires. If that is where  our minds and conversation go so often, how can that not affect and twist how we treat women?

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1 minute ago, GroveDiesel said:

Serious answer: We need a complete culture change. We can talk all we want about treating women equally, sexual harassment being bad, etc, etc, but we absolutely objectivize women and it starts from there.

We have a culture that constantly encourages us to use women for our personal sexual gratification. Call me a prude or whatever, but the consumption of porn is out of control. And that chips away at how we view women and relationships. I don't think the vast majority of guys have any intent to disrespect or dehumanize women when viewing porn, but I think our brains subconsciously start to link our personal gratification with a woman's looks. For the vast majority of guys it doesn't turn them into slobbering neanderthals, but it does very subtly shift our attitude. And for some guys, it goes much further and leads to truly awful behavior.

And culture as a whole just slowly slides in the wrong direction (or maybe it just is allowed to remain in a bad direction despite us KNOWING better).

Look at how many people looked at the stolen images from female celebrities. IMO, just looking at those pictures was a sexual violation of those women. And how many men looked despite KNOWING that, but figuring that nobody would see that violation?

Or how about the many threads on women in the FFA? I'm sure most view them as innocuous, but if you pause and look at how women that none of even know are talked about is rather appalling. We talk about how women need to add weight, lose weight, how their breasts are too big, too small, etc etc. As if they exist to serve our visual sexual desires. If that is where  our minds and conversation go so often, how can that not affect and twist how we treat women?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I both agree with this and disagree at the same time, which is why I think the topic is interesting.

Evolution, for millennia, has tuned man to behave a certain way toward women, to look at them a certain way.  Society came in rather late on this whole thing and over time has been more and more protective of women (not to mention other minority groups).  This has caused a pretty tough shift in society for folks to make.

I think we're seeing the same thing in some way with technology.  Society has come together and make it easier than ever for women to contribute in almost equal ways to men in the workforce (I say almost equal, because there are some areas where physicality rule out most women), yet part of society coming together has been to advance technology to such a degree that we're all starting to be ruled out of the workforce.

So we have psychological makeup where men are attracted to women and largely see them as sexual objects, but society tells us we need to look beyond that, or to hold that in balance with respecting them.  We have psychological makeup that tells us that our value to society largely is (for guys) earning money to provide for family and for women, having and caring for a family....yet lately that's been overturned by technology and societal roles changing with feminism and all.

It's a pretty confusing time to be alive.

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I don't find the political angle that interesting, so I'll try to answer Adonis in good faith.  As context, you could read Lindsey Adler's excellent piece on Deadspin.

I should start by acknowledging that this is hard.  That this is a much larger issue than just the latest powerful man (of all political persuasions) who preys on women.  You have to acknowledge that being a man that would never himself grope or stalk a woman is doing the absolute least you can do.  The first step, IMO, is to talk to women and be open to what they tell you.

I was in college when I first heard the statistic that 1 in 6 women had been a victim of at least some form of sexual assault.  And I though, "no way can that be right."  But when I talked women, I realized I knew LOTS of women who had been victims.  I never would have guessed.  The corollary to that is that it's extremely likely that a guy I know and am friends with has done something to a woman that she perceived to be a violation of her bodily autonomy.  Maybe not recently.  I'm 45.  All my friends are married.  But in college?  Almost certainly.  And I didn't drop them as friends.  I didn't speak up to them at the time. 

 I also know I've made someone I liked in college very uncomfortable by continuing to passive aggressively court her when I knew she wanted me to just go away.  I'm deeply ashamed of it.  I was lonely and didn't like myself very much and I appointed her the solution to that problem without really considering that it wasn't my choice.  And when that went south, I know I harbored every uncharitable thought that self described "nice guys" who are actually raging misogynists have now. 

And even at 45, I and my friends have participated and contributed to a culture that subjects women to this treatment.  No matter how woke I try to be, I know I've marginalized female views in the past. 

I have at times pointed out ways in which I think this site harbors casual misogyny.  But certainly not as regularly as I should.  Because, in truth, I think this board comes off as downright toxic to many women.  Many of my favorite female community members have left.  I'm still friends with some of them, so I know they've felt uncomfortable.  But if I don't call out the casual misogyny on this board, where I'm largely anonymous and in the habit of calling people idiots and awful all the time, you can imagine how hard it would be to do in my brick and mortar relationships.

So I think I need to be harder on myself.  Reporting outright harassment, certainly, but also in speaking out when people make comments about women only using sex to get what they want or similar stuff like that.  And most importantly, actually listening to what women, even those who come across as radical feminists, say.  To not automatically scrutinize what they say because it doesn't line up with my experience.  Because I know nothing about what it's like to be a woman.  I have to work harder to understand.

 

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1 hour ago, GroveDiesel said:

Serious answer: We need a complete culture change. We can talk all we want about treating women equally, sexual harassment being bad, etc, etc, but we absolutely objectivize women and it starts from there.

We have a culture that constantly encourages us to use women for our personal sexual gratification. Call me a prude or whatever, but the consumption of porn is out of control. And that chips away at how we view women and relationships. I don't think the vast majority of guys have any intent to disrespect or dehumanize women when viewing porn, but I think our brains subconsciously start to link our personal gratification with a woman's looks. For the vast majority of guys it doesn't turn them into slobbering neanderthals, but it does very subtly shift our attitude. And for some guys, it goes much further and leads to truly awful behavior.

And culture as a whole just slowly slides in the wrong direction (or maybe it just is allowed to remain in a bad direction despite us KNOWING better).

Look at how many people looked at the stolen images from female celebrities. IMO, just looking at those pictures was a sexual violation of those women. And how many men looked despite KNOWING that, but figuring that nobody would see that violation?

Or how about the many threads on women in the FFA? I'm sure most view them as innocuous, but if you pause and look at how women that none of even know are talked about is rather appalling. We talk about how women need to add weight, lose weight, how their breasts are too big, too small, etc etc. As if they exist to serve our visual sexual desires. If that is where  our minds and conversation go so often, how can that not affect and twist how we treat women?

This bothered me when it was going on, but I didn't even have the nerve to bring it up around here because I assumed I'd get booed out of the threads. Which I guess is an indictment of both our culture and of me.  Good on you for not being as much of a wuss as me.

The threads objectifying women do regularly cross the line, but on the other hand I think the tone on this site is better than most.  I gotta give that particular subject a little more thought.  Your larger point is spot on, though.

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On 10/18/2017 at 9:27 AM, adonis said:

What can/should we be doing or saying in response to what we're hearing from women across the country?

This isn't a tough one IMO. Imagine a wife, daughter, mother SO or girl-friend you love and imagine any of them in that situation, let your blood boil, then just express what you're thinking. My initial response is 'let me know who it is so I can take a poke at his nose'.

In my experience to talking to a couple women who have had this happen to them, they were young and admittedly pretty (IMO, and I feel that's a salient fact) but also smart and talented which landed them in a professional context. So, what happens is that these women 1. feel like they have seen it before from men and they just accept that creeps and creepiness is part of the world so they may under-react, and 2. they feel intimidated to act because (surprise) they want to exist in that professional world and their afraid word of the event will get around to the company or wherever they actually live, ie their job or school or recruiter. I think it is up to them what they do. My feeling is such men should be held accountable and their acts revealed. But that is really hard to ask a young woman to take that upon her, so personally I try not to seem judgemental. I basically respect their decision.

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To me this is an absolute joke of a thread.  Until there is equal rights for men and women get punished for doing the exact same things to men.  It will never happen my lifetime, men constantly get sexually harassed, and abused but it is never reported.  Because society will laugh at the man and condemn him.  While the same thing happens to a woman and treated way differently, it's a double standard.  Most men don't even care that their sexually harassed cause this is what society has indoctrinated into us.  Even when female teachers sleep with a young teen, people on this board and society say lucky kid. 

Men get their butt squeezed all the time, have their chest felt up and think nothing of it.  Same thing happens to a woman and look out.  

I worked in a tv factory out of high school, we were talking about how poor we were out of a group of 5 people working on the line.  I said I was so poor I had holes all over in my underwear, while holding a picture tube, a woman(30 years older) comes over to me sticks her hands down my pants to feel around, right in front of the supervisor,  everyone but me laughs and the supervisor(woman) walks away.  Nothing was done about it, even though I reported it.

I work in respiratory and my first day on the job I was hired.  A woman during shift change (all woman department) in front of two supervisors shoves me and my chair and then shoves and rubs her #### in my face until I shove her off of me(she was a fugly lesbian).  Once again everyone laughs but me, the two supervisors walk out.  Reported but nothing done.  I lost count of the amount of times I have been groped, grabbed, asaulted by my wife's girlfriends, even though I confronted them right away saying I don't liked to be touched.  I'm sure I'm not the only man who has had these experiences.  But once again it is socially acceptable to harass, assault  and sexually abuse men.  Where's the men's #me too movement.  Freaking people feeling sorry for women # hilarious.

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6 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

To me this is an absolute joke of a thread.  Until there is equal rights for men and women get punished for doing the exact same things to men.  It will never happen my lifetime, men constantly get sexually harassed, and abused but it is never reported.  Because society will laugh at the man and condemn him.  While the same thing happens to a woman and treated way differently, it's a double standard.  Most men don't even care that their sexually harassed cause this is what society has indoctrinated into us.  Even when female teachers sleep with a young teen, people on this board and society say lucky kid. 

Men get their butt squeezed all the time, have their chest felt up and think nothing of it.  Same thing happens to a woman and look out.  

I worked in a tv factory out of high school, we were talking about how poor we were out of a group of 5 people working on the line.  I said I was so poor I had holes all over in my underwear, while holding a picture tube, a woman(30 years older) comes over to me sticks her hands down my pants to feel around, right in front of the supervisor,  everyone but me laughs and the supervisor(woman) walks away.  Nothing was done about it, even though I reported it.

I work in respiratory and my first day on the job I was hired.  A woman during shift change (all woman department) in front of two supervisors shoves me and my chair and then shoves and rubs her #### in my face until I shove her off of me(she was a fugly lesbian).  Once again everyone laughs but me, the two supervisors walk out.  Reported but nothing done.  I lost count of the amount of times I have been groped, grabbed, asaulted by my wife's girlfriends, even though I confronted them right away saying I don't liked to be touched.  I'm sure I'm not the only man who has had these experiences.  But once again it is socially acceptable to harass, assault  and sexually abuse men.  Where's the men's #me too movement.  Freaking people feeling sorry for women # hilarious.

This is a weird post.  What happened to you is awful.  Those women should at the very least have lost their jobs.  It obviously was very uncomfortable for you.  So why would you find it so hilarious to feel empathy for people (who happen to be women) who have faced the same treatment?  Maybe you should start a #metoo movement.  Maybe it's a prevalent as you say.  I'm glad you spoke up.  But I'm not sure how it invalidates others who have faced unwanted violations' experiences.

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31 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

To me this is an absolute joke of a thread.  Until there is equal rights for men and women get punished for doing the exact same things to men.  It will never happen my lifetime, men constantly get sexually harassed, and abused but it is never reported.  Because society will laugh at the man and condemn him.  While the same thing happens to a woman and treated way differently, it's a double standard.  Most men don't even care that their sexually harassed cause this is what society has indoctrinated into us.  Even when female teachers sleep with a young teen, people on this board and society say lucky kid. 

Men get their butt squeezed all the time, have their chest felt up and think nothing of it.  Same thing happens to a woman and look out.  

I worked in a tv factory out of high school, we were talking about how poor we were out of a group of 5 people working on the line.  I said I was so poor I had holes all over in my underwear, while holding a picture tube, a woman(30 years older) comes over to me sticks her hands down my pants to feel around, right in front of the supervisor,  everyone but me laughs and the supervisor(woman) walks away.  Nothing was done about it, even though I reported it.

I work in respiratory and my first day on the job I was hired.  A woman during shift change (all woman department) in front of two supervisors shoves me and my chair and then shoves and rubs her #### in my face until I shove her off of me(she was a fugly lesbian).  Once again everyone laughs but me, the two supervisors walk out.  Reported but nothing done.  I lost count of the amount of times I have been groped, grabbed, asaulted by my wife's girlfriends, even though I confronted them right away saying I don't liked to be touched.  I'm sure I'm not the only man who has had these experiences.  But once again it is socially acceptable to harass, assault  and sexually abuse men.  Where's the men's #me too movement.  Freaking people feeling sorry for women # hilarious.

Men have been participating in this.  You should absolutely do the same if you want to, and kudos for doing it here.

I'm not sure I understand the other points you're trying to make, though. You highlight some other problems we have- others have made the same good point about how we respond to teachers sleeping with high school boys- but then you seem to be making a "two wrongs make a right" type argument. Is that not accurate?

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29 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

The "It Can't Be That Bad" Filter is pretty much exactly what I was trying to describe.  I know I've had that filter.  I'd think "ah, maybe he asked her out and it's weird now" instead of "he was really being inappropriate."  Until guys who mean well learn to recognize that filter, I think it's going to be hard to make headway.

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On 10/18/2017 at 4:00 PM, TobiasFunke said:

As far as how we can all do better (beyond condemning the sexual predator in chief and everyone who defends him, of course), here's one list I saw and mostly agreed with about how all men can do better.  

Two thoughts:

1. I already do the vast majority of that but I am still to blame because "even the good guys" are a problem.

2. Some of those things are things that women themselves do.

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4 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

Serious answer: We need a complete culture change. We can talk all we want about treating women equally, sexual harassment being bad, etc, etc, but we absolutely objectivize women and it starts from there.

We have a culture that constantly encourages us to use women for our personal sexual gratification. Call me a prude or whatever, but the consumption of porn is out of control. And that chips away at how we view women and relationships. I don't think the vast majority of guys have any intent to disrespect or dehumanize women when viewing porn, but I think our brains subconsciously start to link our personal gratification with a woman's looks. For the vast majority of guys it doesn't turn them into slobbering neanderthals, but it does very subtly shift our attitude. And for some guys, it goes much further and leads to truly awful behavior.

And culture as a whole just slowly slides in the wrong direction (or maybe it just is allowed to remain in a bad direction despite us KNOWING better).

I don't completely disagree with your overall point but have a few thoughts/comments:

  • if you look at history I would say that women in the US (which I'm assuming is in the top few countries in porn viewers) are treated about as well as women in any culture have been - not saying that the issues that Adonis brings up aren't real but it's worth pointing out (IMO) that we are there
  • anecdotal but I know plenty of men who I don't think are sexist in any way that obviously view it
  • lots of women watch porn - do you think the same of them?
  • if you try to get the yoga pants thread purged I will cut you

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4 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

 I also know I've made someone I liked in college very uncomfortable by continuing to passive aggressively court her when I knew she wanted me to just go away.  I'm deeply ashamed of it. 

 

I sympathize with this but I think you are being too hard on yourself. There's no doubt I engaged in similar behavior when I was young and I don't look back on it fondly but it's because I didn't know what the f##k I was doing. It's not like we were handed an instruction manual for this stuff.

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Since I moved from faculty to academic administration, I've unfortunately had to deal with several instances in which faculty members were behaving inappropriately with students.  I've become convinced that creepy behavior is almost never an honest misunderstanding caused by social awkwardness on the part of the faculty member.  If it looks like grooming, you're pretty safe in assuming that it's grooming.  If students are complaining about somebody on this dimension, there's probably something to it.  Honestly I'm kind of surprised that anybody tries to sweep this stuff under the rug, since it just seems to blow up later.

Edited by IvanKaramazov

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On 10/18/2017 at 2:21 PM, timschochet said:

Let's move on to the bigger issue, and I am perfectly willing to include Bill Clinton (and other celebrities I like) as part of this picture:

Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, Donald Trump, Harvey Weinstein, Ben Roethlisberger, Kobe Bryant

These men have used their positions of power to sexually abuse women- at the workplace, in their private lives. There are thousands of men like them. We as a society generally tolerate it. We only pay attention to it when it's in our face, when the number of accusers is so large that we can't ignore it.

I'm as guilty as anybody. I cheered for Kobe his entire career; same for Big Ben. And of course I strongly supported Hillary. I didn't want to know the facts, and I still don't. This season I have rooted for Ezekiel Elliot to escape any punishment from the NFL because I own him in my league, and to me that's more important than the possibility that he abused his girlfriend. Now if Zeke had been charged with murdering his girlfriend, or molesting some 6 year old kid, my attitude would likely be far different. Somehow I don't see this particular crime as the same, either.

How do we change our societal attitudes about this?

I think most people in our society find sexual abuse and sexism disgusting.

I don't think there's a major problem with societal attitude towards it

As with alot of things, there is going to be a large group of people that don't think it's a big deal. I don't think there's anything anyone can do to change that. 

Goodparents teach their kids that these things are wrong, yet sometimes kids grow up to do whatever they want..it happens.

Bad parents don't teach their kids that these things are wrong, and there are alot of bad/absent parents in our country

It's never going to go away

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3 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

This is a weird post.  What happened to you is awful.  Those women should at the very least have lost their jobs.  It obviously was very uncomfortable for you.  So why would you find it so hilarious to feel empathy for people (who happen to be women) who have faced the same treatment?  Maybe you should start a #metoo movement.  Maybe it's a prevalent as you say.  I'm glad you spoke up.  But I'm not sure how it invalidates others who have faced unwanted violations' experiences.

U can't change society norms, there will always be sexual harassment, just like there will always be racism, arguing to me is dumb.  Just raising awareness won't change people.  Just be a good person and try to raise good kids is all I can do.  Also I have trouble with empathy towards people but not going to get into that.  

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On 10/18/2017 at 5:13 PM, timschochet said:

We need to define this as wrong and evil, the way we define rape and child abuse as wrong and evil. We don't do that now.

The most obvious example: if there had been a tape of Donald Trump bragging about having sex with young children, he never would have been elected. In fact, he would have been forced to withdraw from the race in disgrace. But there WAS a tape of him bragging about sexual abuse of women, and 63 million Americans were willing to overlook it as not important enough to change their minds. That is proof that as a society we just don't regard sexual abuse as wrong and evil enough. That's what needs to be changed.

:lmao:

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This thread is a little disturbing to me for many reasons, but the main reason is the sense of apathy sprinkled throughout.  While it's true none of us can change a heart, that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and stop trying to plant the seeds necessary to begin the changing process.  I've seen this attitude A LOT lately in many different topical threads.  It doesn't make sense at all and I don't buy into it.  Our society isn't one that isn't influenced by us.  It's completely influenced by us.  It's our responsibility to guide societal norms.  We don't live in a world where they just "happen" and we have to adapt to them.  That's not how this works.

GroveDiesel's post is spot on and as shameful as it is for me to say, I didn't "get it" until I had a daughter of my own.  Quite frankly, I was an enabler.  While I always felt I had respect for women because I treated the ones I knew well and with respect, the apathy I had for those I didn't know enabled others to disrespect them.  "That's someone's daughter" went, almost instantly, from a joke to a societal guideline for me after my daughter's birth.  Oddly enough, I think that concept really is all we need to change attitudes.  Look at women with the understanding that they are someone's daughter, wife, mother.  Stop looking at them as objects.  We take that approach and it fixes a good 85% of the issues facing women today.

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16 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

Those are pretty much obvious no brainer suggestions. I guess I could see the first one catching people off guard, but I don't give out anybody's number man or woman without their permission. This just happened to me the other day. Good friend of mine asked for another good friend of mine's number. They were friends also last I had interacted with the two, but I still fired off a text to ask. Answer was obvious. "Of course, would be great to hear from him"

The thing that is kind of off about this article though is that #2 is somewhat contradictory to #5.  This is an article that starts out by saying you need to assume that any one of your friends asking for the phone number of a female friend of yours is a potential rapist and if you were to give out that number you were aiding and abetting sexual assault or harassment. I know this is a fine line, but somehow it needs to be able to be discussed and taught without it being taken as holding assaulters unaccountable. 

As with everything in this world there are levels. I dont have a problem acknowledging that the mail room guy that shows up in the copy room one day and whips out his penis in front of the receptionist is a different beast that the mail room guy that sends a picture of his penis to the receptionist after weeks and weeks of flirting and hearing comments like "Wow what a big package you have brought me today, is it always this big" and "I'd sure like to watch you lick those envelopes". Both guys are guilty of sexual harassment, one of them is worse than the other. 

Good luck ever trying to have any sane discussion regarding this though, as I am sure this will devolve even here. 

 

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A comedian said it best:

 

Don't say or do anything without permission to a woman that you wouldn't want another guy saying or doing to you without permission in prison. 

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3 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is an article that starts out by saying you need to assume that any one of your friends asking for the phone number of a female friend of yours is a potential rapist and if you were to give out that number you were aiding and abetting sexual assault or harassment.

That’s ridiculous and counter-productive to actually making progress on the issue.

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5 hours ago, The Commish said:

This thread is a little disturbing to me for many reasons, but the main reason is the sense of apathy sprinkled throughout. 

Let the pile on begin...

I think some of the apathy stems from a belief by many men (and some women) that the definition and complaints of sexual harassment and assault have become so overly broad and, at times, ridiculous that people don't give many of the complaints credence. 

Some of the "victims' " assertions strain at credulity or their "assaults" are just nonsense.  Sexual harassment and assault, to many of us, is more than one's ### getting cupped at a bar, it is more than the same dude at work telling you "you look hot" everyday, it is more than the guy who tried to kiss you at the club because he misconstrued a "signal"...  And the ladies who claim they are assaulted and harassed in these scenarios do a disservice to the true victims of assault and harassment. 

I'm sure when we were in our twenties we have all been out at bars with a group and either a guy in the group was a little aggressive trying to pick up a girl or a girl in the group got smacked on the ###.  Guess what, not a single one of us did more than say to the person, "dude, chill."  Why, because it wasn't assault or harassment.  It was borderline inappropriate and if the guy got mouthy, yeah, he may have gotten popped, but you weren't fighting over what went down outside of that (which tells me, it wasn't serious enough to be considered assault or harassment.)  Yet, these very scenarios go into the statistics that are pointed to which get us to the point of "1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted..." which is insane.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the millions of girls and women who have been sexually assaulted, who have been kidnapped and placed into the sex trades, who have superiors who use their position of power to touch and pressure them into uncomfortable situations that they would never be in outside that role.  I think we as a society have no problem either allowing the legal system or individuals to act in light of such situations and by god we should strike down upon those individuals with great vengeance and furious anger.  But, for everyone's sake, lets not count youthful indiscretions and courtship rituals count as mass sexual assaults. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Dooook said:

Let the pile on begin...

I think some of the apathy stems from a belief by many men (and some women) that the definition and complaints of sexual harassment and assault have become so overly broad and, at times, ridiculous that people don't give many of the complaints credence. 

Some of the "victims' " assertions strain at credulity or their "assaults" are just nonsense.  Sexual harassment and assault, to many of us, is more than one's ### getting cupped at a bar, it is more than the same dude at work telling you "you look hot" everyday, it is more than the guy who tried to kiss you at the club because he misconstrued a "signal"...  And the ladies who claim they are assaulted and harassed in these scenarios do a disservice to the true victims of assault and harassment. 

I'm sure when we were in our twenties we have all been out at bars with a group and either a guy in the group was a little aggressive trying to pick up a girl or a girl in the group got smacked on the ###.  Guess what, not a single one of us did more than say to the person, "dude, chill."  Why, because it wasn't assault or harassment.  It was borderline inappropriate and if the guy got mouthy, yeah, he may have gotten popped, but you weren't fighting over what went down outside of that (which tells me, it wasn't serious enough to be considered assault or harassment.)  Yet, these very scenarios go into the statistics that are pointed to which get us to the point of "1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted..." which is insane.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the millions of girls and women who have been sexually assaulted, who have been kidnapped and placed into the sex trades, who have superiors who use their position of power to touch and pressure them into uncomfortable situations that they would never be in outside that role.  I think we as a society have no problem either allowing the legal system or individuals to act in light of such situations and by god we should strike down upon those individuals with great vengeance and furious anger.  But, for everyone's sake, lets not count youthful indiscretions and courtship rituals count as mass sexual assaults. 

 

This is part of the problem.  The first two are definitely sexual harassment.

The rest of the text is similarly dismissive and engages in the logical fallacy of assuming one thing can't be bad just because another thing is worse. 

Just my opinion, which of course is worth no more or less than yours. But ultimately the person whose opinion matters is the person who's being cupped, or smacked, or objectified every day.  Given that, maybe it's a good idea to err on the side of caution rather than imposing your views of what is and is not appropriate on them?

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43 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

This is part of the problem.  The first two are definitely sexual harassment.

The rest of the text is similarly dismissive and engages in the logical fallacy of assuming one thing can't be bad just because another thing is worse. 

Just my opinion, which of course is worth no more or less than yours. But ultimately the person whose opinion matters is the person who's being cupped, or smacked, or objectified every day.  Given that, maybe it's a good idea to err on the side of caution rather than imposing your views of what is and is not appropriate on them?

I definitely agree. 

I could understand if doooook said something like hey just because a male coworker told you how beautiful you looked at the xmas party one time after you got dressed up doesnt mean you were sexually harassed or if a guy in an insanely crowded bar happen to brush up against your bum you shouldnt be yelling assault, but nobody should be telling a woman how hot she looks daily or going around slapping butts at a bar. 

I consider myself pretty objective on this matter and I cant even think of a possible good light interpretation of those two scenarios as anything other than harassment and assault. 

Edited to add: Does it make me a bad person that I laughed inside a bit when I typed the bold because I thought how easy it would be to take a Trump/Ivanka shot?  

Edited by parasaurolophus

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1 hour ago, Dooook said:

Let the pile on begin...

I think some of the apathy stems from a belief by many men (and some women) that the definition and complaints of sexual harassment and assault have become so overly broad and, at times, ridiculous that people don't give many of the complaints credence. 

Some of the "victims' " assertions strain at credulity or their "assaults" are just nonsense.  Sexual harassment and assault, to many of us, is more than one's ### getting cupped at a bar, it is more than the same dude at work telling you "you look hot" everyday, it is more than the guy who tried to kiss you at the club because he misconstrued a "signal"...  And the ladies who claim they are assaulted and harassed in these scenarios do a disservice to the true victims of assault and harassment. 

I'm sure when we were in our twenties we have all been out at bars with a group and either a guy in the group was a little aggressive trying to pick up a girl or a girl in the group got smacked on the ###.  Guess what, not a single one of us did more than say to the person, "dude, chill."  Why, because it wasn't assault or harassment.  It was borderline inappropriate and if the guy got mouthy, yeah, he may have gotten popped, but you weren't fighting over what went down outside of that (which tells me, it wasn't serious enough to be considered assault or harassment.)  Yet, these very scenarios go into the statistics that are pointed to which get us to the point of "1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted..." which is insane.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the millions of girls and women who have been sexually assaulted, who have been kidnapped and placed into the sex trades, who have superiors who use their position of power to touch and pressure them into uncomfortable situations that they would never be in outside that role.  I think we as a society have no problem either allowing the legal system or individuals to act in light of such situations and by god we should strike down upon those individuals with great vengeance and furious anger.  But, for everyone's sake, lets not count youthful indiscretions and courtship rituals count as mass sexual assaults. 

 

I can handle it.  Though the bold is a significant part of the problem.  It doesn't matter what sexual harassment is "to me".  That's a prevalent, yet completely flawed approach to this problem IMO.  It starts off on a fatally flawed premise.  That doesn't mean I dismiss your overall point that there are some out there that cry wolf.  These types of people exist in just about every situation we can imagine.  The gamers of the system.

And I want to make crystal clear that my position today is completely different than my position 20 years ago.  I credit that change to the gathering of a little wisdom and perspective over the last two decades.  I didn't say anything in my 20s because I didn't think it was wrong then, not because it wasn't assault or harassment rather because I DIDN'T THINK it was assault or harassment.  I don't get to be the decider of such things.  That's what the law is for.

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Just read today that someone in the tech industry that I follow, Robert Scoble, has had quite a few accusers come forward and identify him of sexual harassment/assault.

It is, but perhaps shouldn't be, surprising that this is so endemic.  

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19 minutes ago, adonis said:

Just read today that someone in the tech industry that I follow, Robert Scoble, has had quite a few accusers come forward and identify him of sexual harassment/assault.

It is, but perhaps shouldn't be, surprising that this is so endemic.  

It really isn't surprising. Shameful but not surprising.

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On 10/19/2017 at 6:34 PM, bucksoh said:

U can't change society norms, there will always be sexual harassment, just like there will always be racism, arguing to me is dumb.  Just raising awareness won't change people.  Just be a good person and try to raise good kids is all I can do.  Also I have trouble with empathy towards people but not going to get into that.  

Just like there will always be crime. Best we can do is educate, protect the best we can, encourage dialogue, and prosecute when appropriate.

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Maybe I missed it but in these 3 pages has anyone mentioned that it's not only women who are sexually harassed? 

Lots of guys laugh it off, it's become "acceptable" and empowering for women to harass guys, but it's the same problem. Maybe more men really don't mind (I know I haven't at times) but that perpetrates the problem.

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4 hours ago, adonis said:

Just read today that someone in the tech industry that I follow, Robert Scoble, has had quite a few accusers come forward and identify him of sexual harassment/assault.

It is, but perhaps shouldn't be, surprising that this is so endemic.  

I dont follow him and only know about him from your post. So I looked it up. One of the women, Quinn Norton wrote about something I have never heard of before. Restorative justice. She also wrote.

Quote

The demonization of either rapists or victims is what makes the subject unapproachable, and doesn’t let anyone intercede to get abusive people the help they need, much less the victims. Men aren’t wild predators, but sometimes the broken ones can do very bad things. Sometimes, even if rarely, broken women do bad things to men.

So basically she says that because of the above people always go into defense mode and that can include the community.

It is an interesting point.  

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9 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont follow him and only know about him from your post. So I looked it up. One of the women, Quinn Norton wrote about something I have never heard of before. Restorative justice. She also wrote.

So basically she says that because of the above people always go into defense mode and that can include the community.

It is an interesting point.  

It is, but did she really need to add "even if rarely" to the part about broken women doing bad things to men?

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48 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

It is, but did she really need to add "even if rarely" to the part about broken women doing bad things to men?

Yes. I think she is speaking of false accusations. 

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10 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Yes. I think she is speaking of false accusations. 

Ok, obviously I'm missing context here. It sounded like she was saying women are far less likely to mistreat men.

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

Ok, obviously I'm missing context here. It sounded like she was saying women are far less likely to mistreat men.

I don't know if this was her point or not, but of course women are far less likely to sexually mistreat men

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1 hour ago, the moops said:

I don't know if this was her point or not, but of course women are far less likely to sexually mistreat men

It had to be in the context of sex, but the statement "Men aren’t wild predators, but sometimes the broken ones can do very bad things. Sometimes, even if rarely, broken women do bad things to men."  Shouldn't necessarily be limited to sex. Not to minimize the issue here but it really comes down to people making their own desires more important than respecting others. That happens on all sides.

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we should do a FFA pole on this to begin trying to figure out if its 5-10% of men doing this to EVERY woman they have a chance to being the reason most women have a harrass/assault story or whether if it's 40-50% having done something they regret once or twice, or if we're 98% droolin dogs.

of course, it would be useless without guarantees of anonymity. can someone on the moderating side of things here tell whether an anonymous poll is truly anonymous?

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While at my first job at Ford I traveled many times with my female boss. I was 23 and she was 37.  One night we were drinking together and she was asking me where I planed on going in the company and that she had influence in many different areas. Ended up in her room slamming..her face was an OffDee 6 but her body was a solid 8.5 with a great rack.  Nailed her 3-4 more times in a year and she did end up getting me into an area I wanted to go.

Thought I was special then I found out she was banging 3-4 of the co-workers who were first year employees as well.

Do I fall into the "Me too?" category?

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12 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

While at my first job at Ford I traveled many times with my female boss. I was 23 and she was 37.  One night we were drinking together and she was asking me where I planed on going in the company and that she had influence in many different areas. Ended up in her room slamming..her face was an OffDee 6 but her body was a solid 8.5 with a great rack.  Nailed her 3-4 more times in a year and she did end up getting me into an area I wanted to go.

Thought I was special then I found out she was banging 3-4 of the co-workers who were first year employees as well.

Do I fall into the "Me too?" category?

Certainly sounds like it was inappropriate behavior, especially since sexual favors were tied to work advancement perhaps.  Do you have regrets about the situation it put you in, or are you OK with the transactional nature of the situation and didn't feel pressured to do it or suffer adverse career effects?

I think with Weinstein and a lot of the other situations, there's more of a "you need to do this, or I will find a way to harm your career" atmosphere that seems absent from your situation, unless it was there and you just didn't add it.  Unwanted sexual advances, groping, then threats to keep quiet or go along for ride or else you'll suffer.

Consensual sex among people, with one offering to help the other with no other strings attached may still be wrong, since one is in a position of power over another, but it seems a bit off in scale to many of the stories we're hearing.

 

Edited by adonis

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4 minutes ago, adonis said:

Certainly sounds like it was inappropriate behavior, especially since sexual favors were tied to work advancement perhaps.  Do you have regrets about the situation it put you in, or are you OK with the transactional nature of the situation and didn't feel pressured to do it or suffer adverse career effects?

I think with Weinstein and a lot of the other situations, there's more of a "you need to do this, or I will find a way to harm your career" atmosphere that seems absent from your situation, unless it was there and you just didn't add it.  Unwanted sexual advances, groping, then threats to keep quiet or go along for ride or else you'll suffer.

Consensual sex among people, with one offering to help the other with no other strings attached may still be wrong, since one is in a position of power over another, but it seems a bit off in scale to many of the stories we're hearing.

 

It was tongue in cheek.  I was 23 and single drinking with my lady boss who had a great body...I wanted to nail her the first time I saw her. Plus she never said she would ruin my career..only advance it.

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23 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

we should do a FFA pole on this to begin trying to figure out if its 5-10% of men doing this to EVERY woman they have a chance to being the reason most women have a harrass/assault story or whether if it's 40-50% having done something they regret once or twice, or if we're 98% droolin dogs.

of course, it would be useless without guarantees of anonymity. can someone on the moderating side of things here tell whether an anonymous poll is truly anonymous?

There is a report out there called the NISVS (this was a study done by the CDC) NCVS that deals with different violent crimes and is a household poll of roughly 142,000 people (the number who actually answer the questions.)  This poll is done every 6 months by the Bureau of Justice Statistics and Rape/Attempted Rape/Sexual assault are among the violent crimes asked about.  A few years back an inquiry was done with regard to how they could improve the accuracy of the polling data (for many reasons.)  Anyway, the report noted that in many cases a single rapist/sexual assault PERPETRATOR will have on average 6 victims.  Thus, it is about 5 to 10% of men who are perpetrating the overwhelming majority of these crimes. 

Now, about 90% of us are responsible for watching The ###### Monologues and thinking, "I wish she would just shut the #### up and show me her ####... god, this is awful..."  The other 10% of men who aren't thinking such are biological women. 

Edited by Dooook

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5 hours ago, HellToupee said:

Lizzie just can’t help herself

So your first instinct when you hear about a woman talking about her experience being sexually assaulted is to poke fun at her? 

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Me Too

This happened to me about 15 years ago.

I was in my late 30's, and had been working as a Computer Repair/Networking teacher in an Area Career Center (Vo-Tech School), in the local school district. I taught high school students, but there were also a couple of other classes that had only adult students. One of the adult classes was Practical Nursing where students worked toward their LPN license.

The high school students had left for the day and I was working in my office, when one of the LPN instructors came in. She was a pretty gal, about 26 years old, brunette, and generally flirty, but never stepping over the line of appropriate behavior in an educational setting. She was a fun co-worker, and her class was still in session.

She asked if I would come down to the Nursing lab and let a few of the students do a blood pressure check on me. It was pretty common for teachers to help out as Guinea pigs for practicing students (I got some sweet mani-pedi’s from the cosmetology class!).

I said “sure”, and began to walk down the hall with her. We chatted a little on the short walk, and It was all good because hey, I was a single guy and walking into a full class of all female adult students. What’s not to like, eh? I was a pretty popular teacher, and I was also serving an internship with my lead administrator, so I was very visible in the school and pretty much everyone knew and liked me.

When we got close to the lab, the older LPN instructor kind of gave me a big grin, took me by the arm, and walked me into the lab. It seemed right away that something was up, and I was being set up in some way. None of the students seemed to be giving blood pressure checks. They just seemed to be watching me as I was being led to a curtained off area surrounding a hospital bed (an ER mock up).

As I got closer to the bed, the students all kind of followed and closed in around me. As I turned the corner, still being led by the arm, I witnessed a truly shocking site. A site that I still remember vividly. The room filled with laughter at my expense. I was slack jawed, and one of the students snapped a picture with her phone to capture the exciting moment of my humiliation.

You see, it wasn’t blood pressure check day at all. In fact, I don’t know what they were studying exactly, but it had something to do with the female anatomy.

Laying before me on that bed was a half-torso medical mannequin, anatomically correct, fully exposed, with its plastic poonanny aimed straight at me…… with one of the adult students on her knees so that her head was in place of the mannequin’s head.

Oh, the laughter! Oh Dozer! We got you, they hailed! HA HA HA SO FUNNY!!!

So, there I stood in front of about 30 women. Red faced and got. “Good one, ladies”, I said.

I let the frivolity die down, I waved to the crowd in defeat, and headed back to my office.

Funny, right? Sure, it was funny….

But, as I pondered this event back in my office, I couldn’t help but slowly reverse all the gender roles in that scene, my role now a female, the instructors and students, male, right down to the anatomically correct MALE medical mannequin with a big ole’ plastic weiner pointing straight at a female teacher.

Talk about your double standard….

Edited by dozer

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Hmmm.  Seems I missed out in my youth.  I’m pretty dense about this stuff though.  

My freshman year in college I recall a fellow coed getting up from our drunken couch conversation, jaunt around a corner, and return 30 seconds later with a small, white pamphlet.

After plopping herself back down next to me she began to read the pamphlet in a manner that was more at me than to me.  I found it odd and tried to listen, but I couldn’t do much more than watch her lips move.

After clearly becoming frustrated she flipped the pamphlet in my lap, rolled her eyes, got up, and left.

I was a bit surprised and frustrated as I thought things were going pretty well and I was planning on getting her number.

Turns out the women’s bathroom was around that corner and she was reading me an instruction guide on how to use a condom.

 

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