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2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (1 Viewer)

Eephus

Footballguy
This year's Veteran's Committee ballot:

Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Steve Garvey
Jack Morris
Tommy John
Marvin Miller

Election requires 12 votes from the 16 committee members, each of whom can vote for up to 4.

Miller and Trammell are the no-brainers for me.  I'd probably go with El Tiante and Tommy John but you could make the case for the other six (maybe not Garvey).

 
You could make a good 'old-school' case for Garvey (MVP, 10 All-Star games, NL record for most consecutive games played, .338 hitter in the playoffs), but when you start looking at newer stats such as WAR (where Mattingly has him beat despite playing 550 fewer games and Trammell nearly doubles him in 39 fewer games) he starts to slide into the Hall of Very Good range.  The off-the-field stuff doesn't help either.

 
You could make a good 'old-school' case for Garvey (MVP, 10 All-Star games, NL record for most consecutive games played, .338 hitter in the playoffs), but when you start looking at newer stats such as WAR (where Mattingly has him beat despite playing 550 fewer games and Trammell nearly doubles him in 39 fewer games) he starts to slide into the Hall of Very Good range.  The off-the-field stuff doesn't help either.
If fame was the only criterion for the Hall of Fame, Garvey would have been voted in by the writers.  He started off at over 40% in his first year of eligibility but his candidacy never gained momentum.  He hung around 30-40% for nearly a decade before falling into the low 20% by the end of his 15 years.  I remember how the early Bill James Abstracts ripped Garvey in a way he stopped doing once he hit the mainstream.

Garvey had a short peak as a very good offensive player but fell off a cliff in his early 30s.  He grades out poorly defensively from the few fielding stats available at the time, especially his range factor.  But Garvey showed up every day and drove in a bunch of runs which sometimes gets lost in the blizzard of modern stats.

 
This year's Veteran's Committee ballot:

Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Steve Garvey
Jack Morris
Tommy John
Marvin Miller

Election requires 12 votes from the 16 committee members, each of whom can vote for up to 4.

Miller and Trammell are the no-brainers for me.  I'd probably go with El Tiante and Tommy John but you could make the case for the other six (maybe not Garvey).
It's a crime that Whitaker isn't on here so he and Trammell can go in together...

 
New names on the ballot:

Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Hideki Matsui, Jim Thome, Johan Santana, Omar Vizquel, Chris Carpenter, Johnny Damon, Liván Hernández, Orlando Hudson, Aubrey Huff, Jason Isringhausen, Carlos Lee, Brad Lidge, Kevin Millwood, Jamie Moyer, Scott Rolen, Kerry Wood and Carlos Zambrano.

 
New names on the ballot:

Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Hideki Matsui, Jim Thome, Johan Santana, Omar Vizquel, Chris Carpenter, Johnny Damon, Liván Hernández, Orlando Hudson, Aubrey Huff, Jason Isringhausen, Carlos Lee, Brad Lidge, Kevin Millwood, Jamie Moyer, Scott Rolen, Kerry Wood and Carlos Zambrano.
of the newcomers

 
Rolen is an interesting case.  3B is really underrepresented in the Hall with only 11 members.  Some of the old timers like Pie Traynor and George Kell weren't very good.  If they came up for election today, they'd hang around the ballot for a couple of years.

Rolen has the same number of rWAR (70) as Ron Santo, and they're on each other's B-R top ten comps list.  Santo had to die before getting in though.

 
Rolen is an interesting case.  3B is really underrepresented in the Hall with only 11 members.  Some of the old timers like Pie Traynor and George Kell weren't very good.  If they came up for election today, they'd hang around the ballot for a couple of years.

Rolen has the same number of rWAR (70) as Ron Santo, and they're on each other's B-R top ten comps list.  Santo had to die before getting in though.
There's a pretty strong case for Rolen as a top 10 3B of all time. JAWS has him right on #10.

I don't understand why people seem to want to put Vizquel in. Gold gloves and bunts I guess.

 
BBWAA voted overwhelmingly for public ballots.  Baseball Hall did the Dikembe finger-wag on them and said no.  :shrug:  

 
If fame was the only criterion for the Hall of Fame, Garvey would have been voted in by the writers.  He started off at over 40% in his first year of eligibility but his candidacy never gained momentum.  He hung around 30-40% for nearly a decade before falling into the low 20% by the end of his 15 years.  I remember how the early Bill James Abstracts ripped Garvey in a way he stopped doing once he hit the mainstream.

Garvey had a short peak as a very good offensive player but fell off a cliff in his early 30s.  He grades out poorly defensively from the few fielding stats available at the time, especially his range factor.  But Garvey showed up every day and drove in a bunch of runs IN THE SUNNY GLORY OF LOS ANGELES' GLAMOUR WORLD which sometimes gets lost in the blizzard of modern stats.

 
Eephus said:
Rolen is an interesting case.  3B is really underrepresented in the Hall with only 11 members.  Some of the old timers like Pie Traynor and George Kell weren't very good.  If they came up for election today, they'd hang around the ballot for a couple of years.

Rolen has the same number of rWAR (70) as Ron Santo, and they're on each other's B-R top ten comps list.  Santo had to die before getting in though.
Even then he probably shouldn't have got in.

 
Eephus said:
Johan Santana
This is probably the most interesting name on the list to me. Career numbers don't stack up, but man was he dominant for a few years in the mid-2000s. Resume is somewhat similar to Koufax, though obviously not as good.

IMO guys who ever reach his brilliant peak belong in Cooperstown, certainly over the sustained above-averageness of an Omar Vizquel.

 
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Northern Voice said:
There's a pretty strong case for Rolen as a top 10 3B of all time. JAWS has him right on #10.

I don't understand why people seem to want to put Vizquel in. Gold gloves and bunts I guess.
There just haven't been many great 3B in the history of MLB. There seem to be a lot now. Rolen may be top 10 3B all time but he just never screamed HOF to me.

 
Eephus said:
New names on the ballot:

Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Hideki Matsui, Jim Thome, Johan Santana, Omar Vizquel, Chris Carpenter, Johnny Damon, Liván Hernández, Orlando Hudson, Aubrey Huff, Jason Isringhausen, Carlos Lee, Brad Lidge, Kevin Millwood, Jamie Moyer, Scott Rolen, Kerry Wood and Carlos Zambrano.
There should be a special place for him. I mean, probably not the HOF, but at least like the Hall of Amazing. Do they still have those Ripley's Believe it or not places?

 
This year's Veteran's Committee ballot:

Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Steve Garvey
Jack Morris
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons deserves to be in.  As does Trammell.

 
Ted Simmons deserves to be in. 
I was a Brewers fan when Simba was a player so I only got to see the fuzzy end of the lollipop.  Catching 130 games a year, mostly on hot 70s Astroturf had killed Simmons' legs by then.  I couldn't believe anybody could be that slow running to first.  He managed only one decent year out of five after Whitey dealt him to Milwaukee, averaging nearly 20 GIDPs per year including the strike year.

Simmons was traded after his age 30 season which is coincidentally Buster Posey's current age.  Simmons had better counting stats through 1980, namely because of his workload but Buster has a better slash line and hopefully a brighter future. 

 
A WAR a full 5 points above the average HOF 2nd baseman.
I just took a look at this,. There's some real garbage at 2B enshrined. Johnny Evers is probably in because of a poem. Since he saw him play, I'll defer to Eephus before I start questioning what a Bid McPhee is. Miller Huggins, who's in more for being a manager, has his numbers at 2B count towards that average.

Also seems like Bobby Grich needs to get his due if Whitaker does.

 
Trammell was my favorite player as a small child and also a star on RBI Baseball, the first video game I ever played. So that’s awesome.

Morris getting in means the Modern Era Committee understands baseball statistics less than I did when I was watching Jack pitch as an 8-year old, but I won’t complain about another Tiger in there.

 
I just took a look at this,. There's some real garbage at 2B enshrined. Johnny Evers is probably in because of a poem. Since he saw him play, I'll defer to Eephus before I start questioning what a Bid McPhee is. Miller Huggins, who's in more for being a manager, has his numbers at 2B count towards that average.

Also seems like Bobby Grich needs to get his due if Whitaker does.
Yeah Grich had a lot of high-end seasons, I think he's gonna eventually get in. 

 
Yeah Grich had a lot of high-end seasons, I think he's gonna eventually get in. 
He was an excellent player who was underrated in his time.  He would have been a bigger star if he played when he played in an era that wasn't so preoccupied with the triple crown stats. 

Grich was one and done in the writers' vote and couldn't even get on the Vet's Committee ballot this time around.  On the other hand, he came along at a time where he was able to go through free agency twice and was well paid for his production.

 
It's the Hall Of Fame to enshrine greatness.  Not the Hall of Good.  Trammell and Morris were nice players, but neither is a HoFer.  Morris had a 3.9 ERA and his election opens the door for a lot of mediocrity............guys like Pettitte and Mussina compare favorably.  I don't think Morris ever had a season with a sub 3 ERA.  Trammell never lead the league in any major category and though he played 20 years fell 700 hits short of 3,000?  Guess Edgar Renteria gets in now.

 
It's not called the Hall of Greatness.  There are plenty of old timers enshrined with credentials even worse than Morris'

 
The various Veterans Committees go back to 1939 and Judge Landis.  The very first one set the bar low by inducting Candy Cummings who only played for six seasons in the 1870s but held a dubious claim on inventing the curveball. 

Since then, the vets have righted some legitimate wrongs, voted for their cronies and made the occasional bad call.   They've gotten much more selective recently with the exception of the special Negro Leagues committee.    But even the worst selections of the writers (e.g. Sutter, Hunter) and committees (e.g. Schalk, Lloyd Waner, Yawkey)  don't diminish the Hall a bit.

 
It's the Hall Of Fame to enshrine greatness.  Not the Hall of Good.  Trammell and Morris were nice players, but neither is a HoFer.  Morris had a 3.9 ERA and his election opens the door for a lot of mediocrity............guys like Pettitte and Mussina compare favorably.  I don't think Morris ever had a season with a sub 3 ERA.  Trammell never lead the league in any major category and though he played 20 years fell 700 hits short of 3,000?  Guess Edgar Renteria gets in now.
Re: Trammell - 70 WAR at SS is a Hall of Famer.  Just because he never led the league in any stats (most SS don't) and fell short of the "magical" 3000 number shouldn't exclude him.  He was one of the best Short Stops in baseball for about 15 years.  That has to count for something.

Re:  Morris - I guess you have to look past stats, because he was the "ACE" in the AL for about 14 years.  Managers wanted the ball in his hands for big games for most of his career.  That must count more than ERA.

 
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Re: Trammell - 70 WAR at SS is a Hall of Famer.  Just because he never led the league in any stats (most SS don't) and fell short of the "magical" 3000 number shouldn't exclude him.  He was one of the best Short Stops in baseball for about 15 years.  That has to count for something.

Re:  Morris - I guess you have to look past stats, because he was the "ACE" in the AL for about 14 years.  Managers wanted the ball in his hands for big games for most of his career.  That must count more than ERA.
I don't go by WAR, more of a sniff test for me.  When I watched Trammell I never felt he was a HoFer.  I don't think Larkin is one either, but at least Larkin has an MVP and 12 AS appearances.    Trammell was an AS 6 times in 20 years?

Morris was extremely durable and pitched a pile of innings, but he wasn't the ACE in a time when Roger Clemens walked the earth.  He didn't strike guys out, he had a high WHIP and he lost double digit games 11 times (likely due to his pitching deep in games).  Mussina has a strong case now, I felt he was better.

 
I don't go by WAR, more of a sniff test for me.  When I watched Trammell I never felt he was a HoFer.  I don't think Larkin is one either, but at least Larkin has an MVP and 12 AS appearances.    Trammell was an AS 6 times in 20 years?

Morris was extremely durable and pitched a pile of innings, but he wasn't the ACE in a time when Roger Clemens walked the earth.  He didn't strike guys out, he had a high WHIP and he lost double digit games 11 times (likely due to his pitching deep in games).  Mussina has a strong case now, I felt he was better.
Exactly.

Neither should have got in.

 
I don't go by WAR, more of a sniff test for me.  When I watched Trammell I never felt he was a HoFer.  I don't think Larkin is one either, but at least Larkin has an MVP and 12 AS appearances.    Trammell was an AS 6 times in 20 years?

Morris was extremely durable and pitched a pile of innings, but he wasn't the ACE in a time when Roger Clemens walked the earth.  He didn't strike guys out, he had a high WHIP and he lost double digit games 11 times (likely due to his pitching deep in games).  Mussina has a strong case now, I felt he was better.
He led the league in 83', was top five in K's seven times.  Morris pitched in the big games, he returned one of the most epic performances in baseball history in the '91 World Series, and was a postseason monster. 

Morris also was one of the originators of the split-fingered fastball as well, along with Bruce Suter, who is a HOF reliever I don't see you railing against. 

Morris was an era pitcher, his numbers aren't HOF but he played in a time with cheaters (Roger Clemens among others) and a lot of runs.  Trammell deserves entry more than Morris, but you're not gonna pick that up based on your inferior baseball acumen.  Trammell played alongside Ripken, had he not his returns were the best of his generation.  Look it up, guy. Trammell's career WAR is better than Larkin, Boudreau, Cronin, Pee Wee, Banks, Tinker, and Aparicio.

You don't seem to know how to use the internet I guess, you can find it even in the Trump government.  gllllllllllll ;)  

 
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Posty gonna Posty.

Blyleven and Larkin shouldn't be in either, but you're too dumb to mention that.  :bye:
Blyleven had a better ERA and WHIP than Morris and had a much higher K/BB ratio. He deserves getting in more than Morris does.

Larkin and Trammell were pretty close.

 

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