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dkp993

Jacksonville fake punt a defensive TD?

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Lots of discussion going on in my main league about this one....

So is this a defensive TD (credited to the owner of Jax D) or a rushing TD for the guy who ran it in?

I say sense the special teams were on the field it's a TD for the D.  (BTW I have no shares in the Jacksonville D in any league so no dog in this fight)

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It's a rushing TD for Corey Grant, simple as that. It's not a special teams play until someone kicks it.

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1 hour ago, CalBear said:

It's a rushing TD for Corey Grant, simple as that. It's not a special teams play until someone kicks it.

I think technically the kick has to cross the line of scrimmage before it becomes a Special Teams play. A blocked punt, for example, would be considered a defensive play.

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9 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

I think technically the kick has to cross the line of scrimmage before it becomes a Special Teams play. A blocked punt, for example, would be considered a defensive play.

This is kind of true, insofar as a punting team can recover the blocked punt and advance it. But it's still a kicked ball, and special rules apply; for example, a penalty on the receiving team which occurs after the kick is blocked will still result in a change of possession, and be enforced after change of possession. I think for fantasy purposes, leagues which have split D/ST should score a blocked punt returned for TD as a ST play, whether or not the punt crossed the line. And I'd say, no matter which team returned it for TD, although I can't think of a case where the punting team returned a blocked punt for a TD. 

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4 hours ago, [scooter] said:

I think technically the kick has to cross the line of scrimmage before it becomes a Special Teams play. A blocked punt, for example, would be considered a defensive play.

But from an FF scoring standpoint, all these types of question regarding "should the defense get the points" can be cleared up by saying a special teams/defensive score only occurs after the ball is kicked.

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8 hours ago, dkp993 said:

Lots of discussion going on in my main league about this one....

So is this a defensive TD (credited to the owner of Jax D) or a rushing TD for the guy who ran it in?

I say sense the special teams were on the field it's a TD for the D.  (BTW I have no shares in the Jacksonville D in any league so no dog in this fight)

It’s an offensive play so it should never go to the DST.

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This is kind of true, insofar as a punting team can recover the blocked punt and advance it. But it's still a kicked ball, and special rules apply; for example, a penalty on the receiving team which occurs after the kick is blocked will still result in a change of possession, and be enforced after change of possession. I think for fantasy purposes, leagues which have split D/ST should score a blocked punt returned for TD as a ST play, whether or not the punt crossed the line. And I'd say, no matter which team returned it for TD, although I can't think of a case where the punting team returned a blocked punt for a TD.


If a punt is blocked and recovered by the offense, they can advance and gain a first down. Possession has not changed. Is it still considered a Special Teams play?

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3 hours ago, bagger said:

It’s an offensive play so it should never go to the DST.

This is correct.  Do not over think it. 

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On 11/13/2017 at 9:48 AM, bagger said:

It’s an offensive play so it should never go to the DST.

It was not an offensiva play. It was a special team fake and score therefore it should be credited to the D/special team. On 4th down you either elect to go for it with your offense or bring out your special team. The special team was out there and scored so it’s pretty simple to me.. the punter was out there not the qb... 

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5 hours ago, Martinsitoh said:

It was not an offensiva play. It was a special team fake and score therefore it should be credited to the D/special team. On 4th down you either elect to go for it with your offense or bring out your special team. The special team was out there and scored so it’s pretty simple to me.. the punter was out there not the qb... 

Why Lazarus a three year old thread? 

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1 hour ago, Truebluey said:

Why Lazarus a three year old thread? 

Especially just to include an obviously wrong take that was brought up three years ago?

Edited by CalBear
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15 hours ago, Martinsitoh said:

It was not an offensiva play. It was a special team fake and score therefore it should be credited to the D/special team. On 4th down you either elect to go for it with your offense or bring out your special team. The special team was out there and scored so it’s pretty simple to me.. the punter was out there not the qb... 

It was an offensive play. The offense lined up in a manner to make the defense believe they were going to make a special teams play. The offense indeed tricked the defense when the offense ran an offensive play.

Otherwise, perhaps all trick plays should be credited to special teams.

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17 minutes ago, Futeki said:

It was an offensive play. The offense lined up in a manner to make the defense believe they were going to make a special teams play. The offense indeed tricked the defense when the offense ran an offensive play.

Otherwise, perhaps all trick plays should be credited to special teams.

Random question, as I don’t play Independent Defensive Player leagues.

DK Metcalf play as an example. When a turnover occurs does an offensive player get credit for a tackle?

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19 minutes ago, VikingFrog said:

Random question, as I don’t play Independent Defensive Player leagues.

DK Metcalf play as an example. When a turnover occurs does an offensive player get credit for a tackle?

Yes he should get credit for the tackle

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17 hours ago, Martinsitoh said:

It was not an offensiva play. It was a special team fake and score therefore it should be credited to the D/special team. On 4th down you either elect to go for it with your offense or bring out your special team. The special team was out there and scored so it’s pretty simple to me.. the punter was out there not the qb... 

What about a wildcat formation where there is no QB or the QB is not under center?  Regardless of which players were on the field, it’s an offensive play.   A punter becomes the QB if he throws the ball or a rusher if he rushes the ball.  Their stats show up under the offensive stat sections of the box scores.  

Edited by Wildcat

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23 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

What about a wildcat formation where there is no QB or the QB is not under center?  Regardless of which players were on the field, it’s an offensive play.   A punter becomes the QB if he throws the ball or a rusher if he rushes the ball.  Their stats show up under the offensive stat sections of the box scores.  

wrong analogy here. whether there is a QB there or not it's the offense on the field.

Interestingly, on CBS, there is no way to allow this to score for an offensive player even if I wanted to. Once the team is in punt formation the resulting play will always be credited to the D/ST unless it's IDP. Even so, it'll be scored as an IDP play and not an offensive play. I think the discussion here is more on whether the NFL should/would score this as an offense/special teams play, but in fantasy, like others have said, it's all about how it's set up. I actually would have just accepted that this is a D/ST play, but lots of merit on scoring this for the offense.

Edited by Pigskin Fanatic

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On 11/12/2017 at 10:26 PM, dkp993 said:

Lots of discussion going on in my main league about this one....

So is this a defensive TD (credited to the owner of Jax D) or a rushing TD for the guy who ran it in?

I say sense the special teams were on the field it's a TD for the D.  (BTW I have no shares in the Jacksonville D in any league so no dog in this fight)

A punt is a special teams play. So it’s not credited to the offense or defense. It’s ST.

if your league is D/ST, then the D/ST gets the TD. 

it’s not even debatable. If it were offense, the offense would have been on the field. But special teams was, presumably in a punting formation.

it’s a D/ST TD.

in IDP it goes to whichever player actually scored the TD. But it sounds like yours is a D/ST league. That’s who gets it. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

A punt is a special teams play. So it’s not credited to the offense or defense. It’s ST.

if your league is D/ST, then the D/ST gets the TD. 

it’s not even debatable. If it were offense, the offense would have been on the field. But special teams was, presumably in a punting formation.

it’s a D/ST TD.

in IDP it goes to whichever player actually scored the TD. But it sounds like yours is a D/ST league. That’s who gets it. 
 

 

What do you call it when the offense lines up and the QB makes a surprise punt on third down?

Special teams is determined by activity, not by the people on the field. If a punt or kick occurs, it is special teams. A run or pass, it is offense/defense. The ball touching a player's foot intentionally makes it special. Hence "foot"ball . If it were normal we would call it soccer.

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13 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

A punt is a special teams play. So it’s not credited to the offense or defense. It’s ST.

if your league is D/ST, then the D/ST gets the TD. 

it’s not even debatable. If it were offense, the offense would have been on the field. But special teams was, presumably in a punting formation.

it’s a D/ST TD.

in IDP it goes to whichever player actually scored the TD. But it sounds like yours is a D/ST league. That’s who gets it. 
 

 

It is totally debatable, which is why we are debating it.  It is an offensive play. Does the NFL list the TD under their special team's stats?  Or do they list is under Rushing?  Let's look:

Special Team's TDs: https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/scoring/2020/reg/all

Notice that they only show TD categories for Punt and Kickoff return TDs.  There is no "fake punt formation" or "fake field goal formation" TDs.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

A punt is a special teams play. So it’s not credited to the offense or defense. It’s ST.

if your league is D/ST, then the D/ST gets the TD. 

it’s not even debatable. If it were offense, the offense would have been on the field. But special teams was, presumably in a punting formation.

it’s a D/ST TD.

in IDP it goes to whichever player actually scored the TD. But it sounds like yours is a D/ST league. That’s who gets it. 
 

 

With respect, disagree with this assessment - a special teams play would require a kick to occur, otherwise it is a regular offensive play - the personnel on the field are irrelevant to the play, it is what happens on the field that determines what type of play it is.

If it's a designed fake, it is recorded as passing/receiving/rushing yardage and the individual performing the act would get the points.

If it is a bad snap or something similar and the punter/holder/whomever tries to run with it and gets tackled, it is recorded as a rush for negative yardage.

I mean, these takes where personnel and not the action dictate the type of play would be akin to saying hey, a defensive linemen was in and caught a TD (or ran it in ala Refrigerator Perry), it should be a defensive play.

Link to NFL Guide for Statisticians

Of relevance is on page 20-21, scoring for when the punter does not actually kick the ball, whether by design or because of bad snap:

Quote

Do not charge a player with a punt unless he actually punts the ball. Note that if the center snap is satisfactory and the punter does not fumble, but is tackled before he punts or while attempting to run, the play is a rushing play. If the play develops as action off a fake punt play, score the play as a rush, pass, or sack consistent with the basic scoring rules on scrimmage plays.

And from page 36, in reference to field goals:

Quote

Kicker is not charged with a field-goal attempt if he does not actually kick:

1) If the player holding the ball bobbles it long enough to prevent the kicker from making an attempt, the play is scored as an aborted play. Charge the holder with a rush for 0 yards, and yardage lost as fumble yardage, plus a fumble and his own fumble recovered.

2) If the center’s snap is satisfactory and the holder does not fumble the snap or mishandle the placement of the ball, but is instead smothered at the spot or tackled after he attempts to run, the play is scored as a rushing play. Charge the holder with a rush and any yards lost as rushing yardage.

3) If the play develops as action off a fake field-goal attempt, charge the holder with a rush, or pass, or sack consistent with the basic scoring rules on scrimmage plays.

 

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9 minutes ago, acarey50 said:

With respect, disagree with this assessment - a special teams play would require a kick to occur, otherwise it is a regular offensive play - the personnel on the field are irrelevant to the play, it is what happens on the field that determines what type of play it is.

If it's a designed fake, it is recorded as passing/receiving/rushing yardage and the individual performing the act would get the points.

If it is a bad snap or something similar and the punter/holder/whomever tries to run with it and gets tackled, it is recorded as a rush for negative yardage.

I mean, these takes where personnel and not the action dictate the type of play would be akin to saying hey, a defensive linemen was in and caught a TD (or ran it in ala Refrigerator Perry), it should be a defensive play.

Link to NFL Guide for Statisticians

Of relevance is on page 20-21, scoring for when the punter does not actually kick the ball, whether by design or because of bad snap:

And from page 36, in reference to field goals:

 

So nice, wish I could like it twice. It’s obvious to me that the play initially in question would not count for the D/ST. 

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37 minutes ago, acarey50 said:
56 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

A punt is a special teams play. So it’s not credited to the offense or defense. It’s ST.

if your league is D/ST, then the D/ST gets the TD. 

it’s not even debatable. If it were offense, the offense would have been on the field. But special teams was, presumably in a punting formation.

it’s a D/ST TD.

in IDP it goes to whichever player actually scored the TD. But it sounds like yours is a D/ST league. That’s who gets it. 
 

 

With respect, disagree with this assessment - a special teams play would require a kick to occur, otherwise it is a regular offensive play - the personnel on the field are irrelevant to the play, it is what happens on the field that determines what type of play it is.

If it's a designed fake, it is recorded as passing/receiving/rushing yardage and the individual performing the act would get the points.

If it is a bad snap or something similar and the punter/holder/whomever tries to run with it and gets tackled, it is recorded as a rush for negative yardage.

I mean, these takes where personnel and not the action dictate the type of play would be akin to saying hey, a defensive linemen was in and caught a TD (or ran it in ala Refrigerator Perry), it should be a defensive play.

Link to NFL Guide for Statisticians

Of relevance is on page 20-21, scoring for when the punter does not actually kick the ball, whether by design or because of bad snap:

Quote

Do not charge a player with a punt unless he actually punts the ball. Note that if the center snap is satisfactory and the punter does not fumble, but is tackled before he punts or while attempting to run, the play is a rushing play. If the play develops as action off a fake punt play, score the play as a rush, pass, or sack consistent with the basic scoring rules on scrimmage plays.

And from page 36, in reference to field goals:

Quote

Kicker is not charged with a field-goal attempt if he does not actually kick:

1) If the player holding the ball bobbles it long enough to prevent the kicker from making an attempt, the play is scored as an aborted play. Charge the holder with a rush for 0 yards, and yardage lost as fumble yardage, plus a fumble and his own fumble recovered.

2) If the center’s snap is satisfactory and the holder does not fumble the snap or mishandle the placement of the ball, but is instead smothered at the spot or tackled after he attempts to run, the play is scored as a rushing play. Charge the holder with a rush and any yards lost as rushing yardage.

3) If the play develops as action off a fake field-goal attempt, charge the holder with a rush, or pass, or sack consistent with the basic scoring rules on scrimmage plays.

Great post, thanks.  3 yrs ago when I posted this we ruled it a TD for the O.  At the time of my asking of the question I had never heard of the kicking action defining the play, I learned it here in this thread, one of the many reasons the SP kicks ###.   

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39 minutes ago, acarey50 said:

With respect, disagree with this assessment - a special teams play would require a kick to occur, otherwise it is a regular offensive play - the personnel on the field are irrelevant to the play, it is what happens on the field that determines what type of play it is.

If it's a designed fake, it is recorded as passing/receiving/rushing yardage and the individual performing the act would get the points.

If it is a bad snap or something similar and the punter/holder/whomever tries to run with it and gets tackled, it is recorded as a rush for negative yardage.

I mean, these takes where personnel and not the action dictate the type of play would be akin to saying hey, a defensive linemen was in and caught a TD (or ran it in ala Refrigerator Perry), it should be a defensive play.

Link to NFL Guide for Statisticians

Of relevance is on page 20-21, scoring for when the punter does not actually kick the ball, whether by design or because of bad snap:

And from page 36, in reference to field goals:

 

You can disagree all you like but as soon as they come out in punt formation it’s a special teams play. 

It doesn’t matter if special teams then executed an offensive play. Whatever they do subsequent to sending out the ST unit is irrelevant.

It’s cut and dry STTD. Using post hoc ergo propter hoc to determine what they intended to do doesn’t change the absolute fact that it’s a special teams play and the TD should be awarded to D/ST. 

I don’t see why this is difficult. A punt fake TD has always been a ST play. The punting unit is part of special teams. Even if an offensive player is part of that unit, he ceases to be an individual in that scenario, as part of that unit. 

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31 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

So nice, wish I could like it twice. It’s obvious to me that the play initially in question would not count for the D/ST. 

It’s well stated. And it’s still 100% wrong. 

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43 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

It is totally debatable, which is why we are debating it.  It is an offensive play. Does the NFL list the TD under their special team's stats?  Or do they list is under Rushing?  Let's look:

Special Team's TDs: https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/scoring/2020/reg/all

Notice that they only show TD categories for Punt and Kickoff return TDs.  There is no "fake punt formation" or "fake field goal formation" TDs.

 

 

We’re talking about fantasy football scoring though, not real football scoring. 

in the many decades I’ve played this game, a special teams unit is part of D/ST. 

Whatever happens after that is credited to ST. 

Using real football rules to justify this is silly.  The points go to the D/ST. They have for decades outside of IDP leagues (which I’m glad I play in so we don’t have to argue stuff like this ever) 

Y’all are just using either 20-20 hindsight or after the fact reasoning to find a way to give the points to a player.  But that’s silly since it’s a special teams play by the punting unit. 

look at it from the other side: they attempt the FG & miss. The ST unit for the defending team catches it and runs it back for a TD. That’s a STTD the other way, right? 

I’m being rhetorical - of course it’s a STTD.’

just like a fake FG is an STTD. 

It doesn’t matter what the ST intended to do. The ST unit performed the action, so the ST unit gets the points. When I commissioned a D/ST league this is how it was awarded 1000 times out of 1000. 

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4 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

It’s well stated. And it’s still 100% wrong. 

Nope. Sorry man you are way wrong here. From your response above you don’t need to do post hoc ergo anything- they showed you what they intended to do and then did it- line up in a special teams formation and then run an offensive play. Their intention was to trick the other team into thinking they were going to run a special teams play but then run an offensive play. Thankfully I believe the scoring systems agree with the majority in this thread. Your D/special teams doesn’t get credit when a team kicks a field goal do they? The individual kicker does. And when a player runs from a kicking formation the individual player also gets the credit, not the team D/ST.

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Just don't bother arguing with the people that are so obviously wrong but dig their heals in to try and save face - it's a waste of your time, but carry on if you must.

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4 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

Nope. Sorry man you are way wrong here. From your response above you don’t need to do post hoc ergo anything- they showed you what they intended to do and then did it- line up in a special teams formation and then run an offensive play.

right. So we agree it was a special teams play. Because they came out with the ST unit and then ran a play. Everything subsequent is irrelevant.

everything else is  your post hoc reasoning.

They could have broken out into song and dance at that point and it would have been a ST song and dance.

if they all pulled yarn and knitting needles out, it would have been the ST knitting out there on the field.

but the ST unit ran an offensive play, so it was the ST running the offensive play. 

the play came after the fact that it was the ST unit doing it. 

STTD. I remain unconvinced otherwise. 

 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy

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1 minute ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Just don't bother arguing with the people that are so obviously wrong but dig their heals in to try and save face - it's a waste of your time, but carry on if you must.

I’m not trying to save anything nor am I “obviously wrong”. Nice passive aggressive post though bro. 

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A fake punt is an offensive play, period.

 

Don't know about you, but I don't have a roster spot designated for special teams

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19 hours ago, Martinsitoh said:

It was not an offensiva play. It was a special team fake and score therefore it should be credited to the D/special team. On 4th down you either elect to go for it with your offense or bring out your special team. The special team was out there and scored so it’s pretty simple to me.. the punter was out there not the qb... 

This is the correct answer.

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2 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

right. So we agree it was a special teams play. Because they came out with the ST unit and then ran a play. Everything subsequent is irrelevant.

everything else is  your post hoc reasoning.

They could have broken out into song and dance at that point and it would have been a ST song and dance.

if they all pulled yard and knitting needles out, it would have been the ST knitting out there on the field.

but the ST unit ran an offensive play, so it was the ST running the offensive play. 

the play came after the fact that it was the ST unit doing it. 

STTD. I remain unconvinced otherwise. 

 

It just doesn’t make sense to score a play based on the personnel on the field.

Are you saying that if Kirk Cousins gets under center, then steps back and takes a long snap and punts the ball, that that’s an offensive play because the offense was on the field?

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3 hours ago, VikingFrog said:

Random question, as I don’t play Independent Defensive Player leagues.

DK Metcalf play as an example. When a turnover occurs does an offensive player get credit for a tackle?

In my idp league he got credit for the tackle.

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Just now, Wrigley said:

A fake punt is an offensive play, period.

No one disagrees with that. It’s a fact.  It it’s an offensive play run by the special teams unit. Period. 

Just now, Wrigley said:

 

Don't know about you, but I don't have a roster spot designated for special teams

Most leagues that have team defense identify it as “D/ST”. If your D roster spot gives you points for a KRTD or PRTD or BFGTD then you do, in fact, have a roster spot designated for special teams. 

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Just now, MTskibum said:

In my idp league he got credit for the tackle.

I am jealous of this. Our league doesn’t. :( 

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2 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

right. So we agree it was a special teams play. Because they came out with the ST unit and then ran a play. Everything subsequent is irrelevant.

everything else is  your post hoc reasoning.

They could have broken out into song and dance at that point and it would have been a ST song and dance.

if they all pulled yarn and knitting needles out, it would have been the ST knitting out there on the field.

but the ST unit ran an offensive play, so it was the ST running the offensive play. 

the play came after the fact that it was the ST unit doing it. 

STTD. I remain unconvinced otherwise. 

 

No we definitely disagree because your stance is obviously wrong. They had possession of the ball they can do whatever the heck they want with it but until they give away possession they aren’t on Defense and that’s what D/ST scoring is for. You don’t get credit to your D/ST for a made fg. In your missed fg example that’s what happens- possession changed so the D/ST then gets the score. In the example in question possession never changed, it’s still an offensive play from a trick formation. I’m stunned that people disagree with this. 

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6 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

right. So we agree it was a special teams play. Because they came out with the ST unit and then ran a play. Everything subsequent is irrelevant.

everything else is  your post hoc reasoning.

They could have broken out into song and dance at that point and it would have been a ST song and dance.

if they all pulled yarn and knitting needles out, it would have been the ST knitting out there on the field.

but the ST unit ran an offensive play, so it was the ST running the offensive play. 

the play came after the fact that it was the ST unit doing it. 

STTD. I remain unconvinced otherwise. 

 

How do you score this play?

Kirk Cousins gets hurt. Third down. The punter comes in and takes the snap under center and throws for a TD. Is that a ST TD?

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Just now, Cobbler1 said:

No we definitely disagree because your stance is obviously wrong. They had possession of the ball they can do whatever the heck they want with it but until they give away possession they aren’t on Defense and that’s what D/ST scoring is for. You don’t get credit to your D/ST for a made fg. In your missed fg example that’s what happens- possession changed so the D/ST then gets the score. In the example in question possession never changed, it’s still an offensive play from a trick formation. I’m stunned that people disagree with this. 

I agree. It's so obviously not a ST play. I don't get how people don't see this.

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4 minutes ago, kutta said:

It just doesn’t make sense to score a play based on the personnel on the field.

Are you saying that if Kirk Cousins gets under center, then steps back and takes a long snap and punts the ball, that that’s an offensive play because the offense was on the field?

I don’t see that ever happening so it’s a weird premise. 

If the punter is hurt and Cousins comes out with the punting unit, it’s a ST play though. And if, as part of ST, Cousins then throws the ball instead, it’s still a ST play because that’s the unit on the field.

I’m confused by your initial statement - those definitions are baked in. The personnel on the field are known by their packages. (Phrasing?) The kicking unit, punting unit and KR/PR units are collectively known as “special teams”. 

whatever those units do while on the field is attributed to those units.  When Devn Hester returned kicks for TDs, he was part of the special teams unit. For years people who owned Hester in my leagues would argue until they were blue in the face that he should get that touchdown as an individual, but he wasn’t. He was a ST player and the points went to ST.

 

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4 minutes ago, kutta said:

I agree. It's so obviously not a ST play. I don't get how people don't see this.

I’ll explain: because it’s a play that occurs with the special teams unit on the field.
 

Thus, it’s a special teams play. 

I don’t get how people don’t see this. 

;) 

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7 minutes ago, kutta said:

How do you score this play?

Kirk Cousins gets hurt. Third down. The punter comes in and takes the snap under center and throws for a TD. Is that a ST TD?

That’s an offensive play because the punter came out with the offensive unit.

Just like ST gets the play if the ST unit is on the field.

this is consistent. 

how about this: ST runs the fake FG. Dude runs and fumbles it; the ST until on the other side recovers and takes it back for a TD.  Is that a ST TD?  Of course it is.

because the ST unit is on the field. That’s the personal package, which is the only thing that defines this. 

the nature of the play run is irrelevant to the unit performing it in determining who gets the points. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’ll explain: because it’s a play that occurs with the special teams unit on the field.
 

Thus, it’s a special teams play. 

I don’t get how people don’t see this. 

;) 

So, if for whatever reason, a coach decided, for fun, to let his special teams guys play an offensive series, you would say that all those plays are special teams plays and not offensive plays?

It just doesn't make sense to score plays based on who is on the field.

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Just now, Hot Sauce Guy said:

That’s an offensive play because the punter came out with the offensive unit.

Just like ST gets the play if the ST unit is on the field.

this is consistent. 

how about this: ST runs the fake FG. Dude runs and fumbles it; the ST until on the other side recovers and takes it back for a TD.  Is that a ST TD?  Of course it is.

because the ST unit is on the field. That’s the personal package, which is the only thing that defines this. 

the nature of the play run is irrelevant to the unit performing it in determining who gets the points. 

It's a defensive TD because the defense is on the field.

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’ll explain: because it’s a play that occurs with the special teams unit on the field.
 

Thus, it’s a special teams play. 

I don’t get how people don’t see this. 

;) 

So is a fg kicked. Why does the individual get the points there? They don’t even have offensive scoring categories for D/ST for plays where they start with the ball. Miles Boykin caught a pass for ~15 yards on a fake punt Ravens vs WFT. Did the Ravens D/ST receive credit for a 15 yard catch? Of course not. Did Miles Boykin as an individual? Yes, yes he did. 

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Just now, kutta said:

 

So, if for whatever reason, a coach decided, for fun, to let his special teams guys play an offensive series, you would say that all those plays are special teams plays and not offensive plays?

It just doesn't make sense to score plays based on who is on the field.

Again, a premise that would never happen so I’m not sure why it bears relevance here. 

In FF we score plays based on who’s on the field all the time. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

That’s an offensive play because the punter came out with the offensive unit.

Just like ST gets the play if the ST unit is on the field.

this is consistent. 

how about this: ST runs the fake FG. Dude runs and fumbles it; the ST until on the other side recovers and takes it back for a TD.  Is that a ST TD?  Of course it is.

because the ST unit is on the field. That’s the personal package, which is the only thing that defines this. 

the nature of the play run is irrelevant to the unit performing it in determining who gets the points. 

So now we have to know specifically who was blocking on the play to decide what kind of play it is? What difference does it make who the left guard was on the play, or where everyone lined up?

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Again, a premise that would never happen so I’m not sure why it bears relevance here. 

In FF we score plays based on who’s on the field all the time. 

Because it COULD happen. And scoring must be consistent in all cases.

You are going to come around, I know it. You are on the verge.

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