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Al Franken allegations (1 Viewer)

I remember a time in politics where one hoped that if you drowned a woman in your car, or burglarized the headquarters of your opponents that you might be disqualified from politics, but probably not.  Where overthrowing governments and routing millions to guerillas might cause trouble, but maybe not.  Now we talk about tongue kisses that were unwelcomed and we ignore ##### grabbing that was also, presumably unwelcome.  We get distracted from election tampering by matters that a generation or two ago may not have caused a moments notice.  I don't know if this is good or bad.  I do know that we seem so focused on ranking and parsing offenses that we are at least arguably distracted.  I suspect that power, like a magician, can take advantage of our distraction, our misdirection.

I hope we are good multi-taskers.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
adonis said:
Really?

Shouldn't we want some kind of investigation to happen first, get folks on the record and get to the bottom of this?
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Really. The combination of her story and the photo should be enough. I’m not calling for his conviction or any legal ramifications without due process, but IMO we should hold our legally elected officials to a really high standard on this, and other, issues.
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That seems to put an awful lot of power in the hands of someone with evidence of wrongdoing and a compelling story.  I tend to want either a complete investigation, or independent witnesses backing up the story, or other women (or men) in different situations alleging similar, or equally bad other things.

Weinstein - tons of accusers, rape accusations, abuse of power, etc
Moore - multiple accusers, inappropriate contact with underage girls
Spacey - tons of accusers, attempted sex with 14yo and a ton of other assault claims
Louis C.K. - multiple accusers, masturbating in front of women
Trump - tons of accusers and his own comments, walking in on underage girls in dressing room, rape, assault

....

way way down

....

Franken - accused of slipping tongue during consensual (pressured) kiss rehearsing for a risqué skit for troops, evidence of off-color photo pretending to grope a sleeping woman as a "joke"

Now I'm not meaning to demean the experience Leeann had and she probably legitimately feels violated by the slip of the tongue and the picture, but it's possible there are two sides to this story and that knowing more of the situation would change the perception of the events.  Maybe not.  But surely we should be open to that possibility.

Again, if more folks come out independently either confirming this story, or confirming stories similar to this with abuse from Franken, the questions in this specific case recede and a pretty clear pattern of behavior comes out and I would definitely agree with you.  But until the questions recede, why the rush to condemnation?

 
Can someone define for me where behavior moves from criminal assault to civil harassment to boorish behavior to misreading signals and making immediate amends.  I think I know for myself, but am unsure for public debate.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
This is my assumption too.  If it's a one off it's a completely different story (in terms of appropriate consequences) than Trump-Clinton-Moore IMO.
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This is actually why I don't buy the Trump allegations either... the #####-grabbing audio comes out and you would expect a stream of woman claiming he did it to them. But that never happened. It seems like the guys who do this stuff are serial offenders, think of Spacey, Cosby etc... it's an avalanche. 

 
sublimeone said:
This is actually why I don't buy the Trump allegations either... the #####-grabbing audio comes out and you would expect a stream of woman claiming he did it to them. But that never happened. It seems like the guys who do this stuff are serial offenders, think of Spacey, Cosby etc... it's an avalanche. 
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Didn't 16 women come out?  Or is that not true?

 
adonis said:
Weinstein - tons of accusers, rape accusations, abuse of power, etc
Moore - multiple accusers, inappropriate contact with underage girls
Spacey - tons of accusers, attempted sex with 14yo and a ton of other assault claims
Louis C.K. - multiple accusers, masturbating in front of women
Trump - tons of accusers and his own comments, walking in on underage girls in dressing room, rape, assault

....

way way down

....

Franken - accused of slipping tongue during consensual (pressured) kiss rehearsing for a risqué skit for troops, evidence of off-color photo pretending to grope a sleeping woman as a "joke"
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Yes, I don't want to get into the "all rape has exactly the same severity" discussion again, but I do think there are different grades of unwanted or inappropriate sexual advances; and Franken's seems lower on the scale than Weinstein's. Not that that makes it unserious.

 
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Coeur de Lion said:
Forcibly shoving your tongue down someone’s throat and groping them while they are asleep is way over the line of decent human behavior.
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maybe I am missing something but did Franken actually grope her?  I've seen the pic where he is pretending like he is about to grope her but did he actually do it?  she didn't find out about it until she saw the pic so I'm guessing she doesn't know if he did or maybe she was told he did by whoever took the pic?

secondly, didn't she agree to kiss him?  by her own comments, it seems as though she said 'OK' but then he did it more forcefully than she expected

I don't want to sound like I'm defending Franken.  pretending to grope someone isn't funny and is obviously in bad taste and he probably deserved to get punched in the face for the forceful kiss.  but I'm having a hard time comparing him to a politician who sexually assaulted multiple teenage girls.  there are degrees of awfulness and I don't agree that both of these men should automatically receive the same punishment.  if more women come out against Franken, then I agree he should step down but to say that just off of this instance seems a little extreme, IMO.  I'd like to see an investigation and see what they come up with.

 
McGarnicle said:
This. We knew there would be a load of Roy Moore accusers, so let's see if there are more against Franken.

Also, this was just 11 years ago, and he's accused of forcibly grabbing her head and shoving his tongue in her mouth; this isn't a question of memory. He knows if this happened or didn't. His response reads like a non-denial denial.
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In the current climate, with the picture, he can't outright deny it even if it's a complete fabrication. 

 
sublimeone said:
This is actually why I don't buy the Trump allegations either... the #####-grabbing audio comes out and you would expect a stream of woman claiming he did it to them. But that never happened. It seems like the guys who do this stuff are serial offenders, think of Spacey, Cosby etc... it's an avalanche. 
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Limp Ditka said:
:mellow:
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Yeah.  Dude, where you been?   

Over a dozen accusations.  On the record comments about sexual assualting women.  Decades of known behavior, including the anecdotes about him walking in on undressed underage girls.  Oh, and general reputation of a boorish ####### who holds little to know respect for women in general.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Can someone define for me where behavior moves from criminal assault to civil harassment to boorish behavior to misreading signals and making immediate amends.  I think I know for myself, but am unsure for public debate.
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Any degree of sexual/physical behavior between two people that isn't 100% consensual is immediately grounds for loss of job, and them being forever a horrible person.  Irredeemable. 

HTH.

 
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360709-woman-who-accused-franken-says-she-accepts-his-apology

The woman who accused Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) of sexual misconduct said Thursday she accepts his apology.

"The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake," Leeann Tweeden said. "So yes I do accept that apology. There's no reason why I shouldn't accept his apology."

She said it's up to Congress to decide if it wants to have an ethics investigation into Franken's behavior, adding that she isn’t calling for Franken to step down, unless more women come forward.

“People make mistakes. I’m not calling for him to step down. That’s not my place to say that,” Tweeden said. 

She said she wasn't "looking for anything" when she shared her story.
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Can someone define for me where behavior moves from criminal assault to civil harassment to boorish behavior to misreading signals and making immediate amends.  I think I know for myself, but am unsure for public debate.
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This is where the repeat offender part is very helpful.  Once and maybe it's crossed signals or a terrible joke gone bad.  Over and over again pretty much makes the case by itself.

 
Koya said:
Yeah.  Dude, where you been?   

Over a dozen accusations.  On the record comments about sexual assualting women.  Decades of known behavior, including the anecdotes about him walking in on undressed underage girls.  Oh, and general reputation of a boorish ####### who holds little to know respect for women in general.
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Those anecdotes of walking in on undressed girls...those came from Trump himself on the Stern show.

 
sublimeone said:
This is actually why I don't buy the Trump allegations either... the #####-grabbing audio comes out and you would expect a stream of woman claiming he did it to them. But that never happened. It seems like the guys who do this stuff are serial offenders, think of Spacey, Cosby etc... it's an avalanche. 
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Seriously?  Were you following the election?  Here's just a few from wiki that came forward.  I can keep going....

Summer Zervos (2007)
Summer Zervos was a contestant on the fifth season of The Apprentice, which filmed in 2005 and aired in 2006.[29] Subsequently, she contacted Trump in 2007, about a job after the show's completion, and he invited her to meet him at The Beverly Hills Hotel. Zervos has said that Trump was sexually suggestive during their meeting, kissing her open-mouthed, groping her breasts,[29] and thrusting his genitals on her.[31] She also has said that his behavior was aggressive and not consensual.[30] Zervos is being represented by attorney Gloria Allred.[32]





Jessica Leeds (1980s)





In the early 1980s, Leeds was a businesswoman at a paper company on a flight from the Midwest, returning to New York. A flight attendant offered her an empty seat in the first-class cabin next to Trump. Leeds alleged that about 45 minutes after takeoff, Trump lifted the armrest and began touching her, grabbing her breasts, and tried to put his hand up her skirt. "He was like an octopus," she said. "His hands were everywhere. It was an assault."[52][55] Leeds said she had sent a letter containing her allegations to the editor of The New York Times.[3][52]





Kristin Anderson (1990s)





On October 14, 2016, The Washington Post reported allegations by Kristin Anderson that Trump groped her beneath her skirt in a Manhattan nightclub in the early 1990s. An aspiring model at the time of the alleged incident, Anderson told the story to her friends, and decided to come forward after reading accounts of other women who had done so.[62] Anderson believed that the alleged assault occurred at the China Club, a Manhattan nightclub that Newsday referred to as "Donald's Monday-night nest" due to his alleged habit of picking up women there


 
Koya said:
Yeah.  Dude, where you been?   

Over a dozen accusations.  On the record comments about sexual assualting women.  Decades of known behavior, including the anecdotes about him walking in on undressed underage girls.  Oh, and general reputation of a boorish ####### who holds little to know respect for women in general.
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to be fair to sublimeone, his news sources may not have fully informed him

 
adonis said:
That seems to put an awful lot of power in the hands of someone with evidence of wrongdoing and a compelling story.  I tend to want either a complete investigation, or independent witnesses backing up the story, or other women (or men) in different situations alleging similar, or equally bad other things.

Weinstein - tons of accusers, rape accusations, abuse of power, etc
Moore - multiple accusers, inappropriate contact with underage girls
Spacey - tons of accusers, attempted sex with 14yo and a ton of other assault claims
Louis C.K. - multiple accusers, masturbating in front of women
Trump - tons of accusers and his own comments, walking in on underage girls in dressing room, rape, assault

....

way way down

....

Franken - accused of slipping tongue during consensual (pressured) kiss rehearsing for a risqué skit for troops, evidence of off-color photo pretending to grope a sleeping woman as a "joke"

Now I'm not meaning to demean the experience Leeann had and she probably legitimately feels violated by the slip of the tongue and the picture, but it's possible there are two sides to this story and that knowing more of the situation would change the perception of the events.  Maybe not.  But surely we should be open to that possibility.

Again, if more folks come out independently either confirming this story, or confirming stories similar to this with abuse from Franken, the questions in this specific case recede and a pretty clear pattern of behavior comes out and I would definitely agree with you.  But until the questions recede, why the rush to condemnation?
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It’s enough for me given the photographic evidence in combination with the credible story. If someone doesn’t want to be held to that standard, they are free to pursue a far less public and important career IMO. Also, Franken hasn’t denied anything; if he were calling BS then yeah, we’d need to sort it out. “I’m sorry” just doesn’t cut it here for me.

That’s my standard; I can understand wanting more evidence even though I disagree.

I will say this, though: I’m just a random schlub, and would certainly expect to be fired over something like this. It is way over a line that we should all know better than to even approach IMO.

 
Koya said:
Yeah.  Dude, where you been?   

Over a dozen accusations.  On the record comments about sexual assualting women.  Decades of known behavior, including the anecdotes about him walking in on undressed underage girls.  Oh, and general reputation of a boorish ####### who holds little to know respect for women in general.
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I'm not saying the guy isn't sleezy. The Billy Bush interview is all that's needed to prove that but the harassment allegations just don't seem credible IMO.

 
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sublimeone said:
This is actually why I don't buy the Trump allegations either... the #####-grabbing audio comes out and you would expect a stream of woman claiming he did it to them. But that never happened. It seems like the guys who do this stuff are serial offenders, think of Spacey, Cosby etc... it's an avalanche. 
Click to expand...
What are you on about, now?

 
sublimeone said:
I'm not saying the guy isn't sleepy. The Billy Bush interview is all that's needed to prove that but the harassment allegations just don't seem credible IMO.
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Why aren't they credible?

For instance, I find Juanita Broaddrick's allegations against Bill Clinton credible.  How are the allegations against Trump less credible than the allegations (that Trump has endorsed) against Bill Clinton? What indicia of credibility are missing from the accusations against Trump?

 
jomar said:
maybe I am missing something but did Franken actually grope her?  I've seen the pic where he is pretending like he is about to grope her but did he actually do it?  she didn't find out about it until she saw the pic so I'm guessing she doesn't know if he did or maybe she was told he did by whoever took the pic?

secondly, didn't she agree to kiss him?  by her own comments, it seems as though she said 'OK' but then he did it more forcefully than she expected

I don't want to sound like I'm defending Franken.  pretending to grope someone isn't funny and is obviously in bad taste and he probably deserved to get punched in the face for the forceful kiss.  but I'm having a hard time comparing him to a politician who sexually assaulted multiple teenage girls.  there are degrees of awfulness and I don't agree that both of these men should automatically receive the same punishment.  if more women come out against Franken, then I agree he should step down but to say that just off of this instance seems a little extreme, IMO.  I'd like to see an investigation and see what they come up with.
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Zero tolerance IMO. YMMV.

 
shader said:
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

This is half the reason I think the 1,200 page Russian thread is so dumb.  People are diving headfirst into a desperate search for Trump being guilty of Russian collusion when the real story is here.  Even if at worst he's guilty of treason, is that worse than 16 sexual assaults?  Not to me.  
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It's considerably worse.  The number of folks affected by collusion are millions.  The # affected by his assault probably only number in the hundreds.

The impact of his actions as president will continue affecting millions for years, not just in the US but internationally.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
He's Al Franken, not Christian Bale.  I doubt he was going around as Saddam Hussein backstage to fully commit to the character.  
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That's not really all that relevant, except that I would much more expect a method actor to set boundaries like "This but not this" before beginning a rehearsal/scene.

 
Tweeden was also not an actor.  I'm sorry, but this idea that this was Franken's artistic process--for some bull#### little sketch for the USO--is ridiculous.  

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Tweeden was also not an actor.  I'm sorry, but this idea that this was Franken's artistic process--for some bull#### little sketch for the USO--is ridiculous.  
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It's not a matter of "artistic process" with some high minded ideal.  Have you seen the sketch comedy he did for a living for over a decade?  That is absolutely how he would have approached any kiss in a comedy sketch whatsoever, with Mike Myers, Joe Piscopo, or Pamela Anderson.

That said "Tweeden was also not an actor" is precisely the point of my original posts on this subject.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Why aren't they credible?

For instance, I find Juanita Broaddrick's allegations against Bill Clinton credible.  How are the allegations against Trump less credible than the allegations (that Trump has endorsed) against Bill Clinton? What indicia of credibility are missing from the accusations against Trump?
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Look, I obviously opened a can of worms and don't have a lot of time but here's where I'm coming from: A story came out, during the campaign (i can't remember the womans name) claiming Trump did a bunch of sexual harassing. After the story is published the woman featured in the article refutes literally every salacious detail. Then you have the p-grabbing audio... if there was anything with a shred of credibility the media could use against Trump they used it. So if these woman are so credible how did a media that was foaming at the mount with their Trump hate just sweep it all under the rug? It doesn't make sense. 

 
adonis said:
shader said:
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

This is half the reason I think the 1,200 page Russian thread is so dumb.  People are diving headfirst into a desperate search for Trump being guilty of Russian collusion when the real story is here.  Even if at worst he's guilty of treason, is that worse than 16 sexual assaults?  Not to me.  
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It's considerably worse.  The number of folks affected by collusion are millions.  The # affected by his assault probably only number in the hundreds.

The impact of his actions as president will continue affecting millions for years, not just in the US but internationally.
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Exactly right. Even if Trump sexually harasses one woman a day every single day that he's in office for two full terms, that's what, somewhere short of 3,000 women? I mean, I guess that's kind of bad. But even if he literally murdered that many women instead of just harassing them, it's still at least an order of magnitude less bad than increasing the chance of nuclear war by just 1%.

That's why, as bad as the sexual assault allegations were, I didn't find them disqualifying. There were far more important reasons to oppose Trump than that.

 
sublimeone said:
Look, I obviously opened a can of worms and don't have a lot of time but here's where I'm coming from: A story came out, during the campaign (i can't remember the womans name) claiming Trump did a bunch of sexual harassing. After the story is published the woman featured in the article refutes literally every salacious detail. Then you have the p-grabbing audio... if there was anything with a shred of credibility the media could use against Trump they used it. So if these woman are so credible how did a media that was foaming at the mount with their Trump hate just sweep it all under the rug? It doesn't make sense. 
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What are you talking about?

 
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