Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Trump and the 16 women (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter shader
- Start date
sho nuff
Footballguy
Im not misrepresenting anything. Im talking about a situation we have here with Trump and multiple accusations and adding my opinion to it.
People are assuming guilt on Trump because of what they have seen and heard from multiple accusers and his own words. That is what is happening.
Those assuming innocence or it doesn't matter are doing so because he is their guy. Generalization? Maybe...could anyone who assumes innocence or that it doesn't matter with Trump explain otherwise?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Its about your opinion of it....comparing the two situations seems quite reasonable.
My opinion was Franken should step down and I am being consistent with that. How about you? Should I look through the Franken thread to see what you had to say about him? Im sure I can find numerous Trump supporters that laugh off the accusations about him but called Franken some very bad things.
matuski
Footballguy
Then you are misunderstanding. Or not trying to understand.
None of this goes against what I have posted here today. At all.
It is like you are having a hard time computing that we don't disagree and want to argue over what we agree on.
Last edited by a moderator:
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
I don’t think Franken is a rapist and a danger to women. He is no Weinstein. I obviously disagree with him politically, so I don’t shed a tear over his departure in much the same way many here celebrated the Alabama election.
However, I worry about how far this issue goes without having serious conversation about what’s right and wrong in the ever-changing rules of male/female relationships. There is now a mass rush to judgement and it seems like the man is now always going to be wrong.
There are so many different interpretations of crossing the line. We had a case at work where a lady claimed people looked at her with lust. They weren’t, but regardless a man quit over the PITA he was put through by her. Bad pickup lines are now viewed as inappropriate. My line in the sand is trypically unwanted touching or truly offensive comments. Obviously, others have different lines in the sand. I am just glad I am married and don’t have to worry about all of this.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Its like you are having a hard time computing that my response isn't just about you. And that its about the overall thread and points being made.
The Commish
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
When men use their positions of power to force themselves on women in ways the women do not consent to, they will always be wrong. Whether it's a forced kiss, an ### grab, rape, groping...you name it, it's wrong.
Obviously, the punishment for various transgressions should be different, and perhaps that's what you're ultimately referring to and which I'd agree with. Franken's punishment should be different than Weinsteins. But we can't lose sight that Franken AND Weinstein and Trump are all wrong for what they did.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Another good post. Yes there most certainly are "tiers" if you will of bad behavior but unfortunately these days they are all being lumped into one.
matuski
Footballguy
My posts were clearly made about specific posts, about specific occurrences. And how they need to be kept in mind in the larger overall points being made.
I now have enough evidence to assume your guilt under the "not trying to understand" label.
matuski
Footballguy
Any instance where people have been the target of unfounded, baseless, or false accusations.
Like those listed above (Duke, UVA, etc) and like my own experience. Like my 3 coworkers accused with me. The accusation is vile (rightly so) and carries serious weight behind it. I thank my lucky stars that she unintentionally cleared each and every one of us in her reports. Without her blatant documentable lies and false representations/exclusions in her reports to HR, all each of us were left with was - "I didn't do it". Scariest damn thing ever.
NOT like these people caught on TV/tape (Trump), with dozens of accusations (Weinstein/Trump), sending texts of themselves jacking off in the shower (Taylor).
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Right, you said that "this seems to be happening" with assuming guilt.
You've given two rather extreme examples over the past 11 years which showed near (or actual) criminal behavior by the people publicizing them, none since the Weinstein news hit, and a personal anecdote that I'm not sure when it happened. What I'm asking is what you mean by "this seems to be happening." Present continuous tense.
matuski
Footballguy
I didn't give those examples. The only example I gave was my own.
There is a balance between the rightful punishment of those who have done these awful things, while also not rushing to assume the next guy is guilty because the last guy was.
I guess another specific current example are the list of guys at the NFL network. I haven't spent any time beyond the one article I read.. but some of those guys are obviously guilty, some seemed less easy to make that assumption. I am not defending any of it, but the accusations seem to range from aggressive "hitting on" her to outright assault. I see the evidence ranging from texts/videos (guilty) to he said/she said (I need more info before making the assumption). In threads here, and discussions on the radio, I see them being treated as a group rather than individually. I see them all being treated as if they committed the worst offense on the list.
I don't think this is an epiphany. Simply something we are easily guilty of - it is easier lump and label than putting the effort into considering each case. It is easier to not defend innocence against an awful accusation for fear of looking like you are defending the act. Something I am sensitive to because I saw very personally how people cut and run/exile others based on accusation alone.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
You need to bold the 4 words prior. They were given by another. I was referencing them as this is what my posting began in reference to.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I know they've been previously noted in the thread, but I asked "where, which people" and you said "like these." Clearly this discussion isn't going anywhere.
The NFL Network stuff... I mean, Sapp obviously admitted on Twitter to at least part of what he's accused of. We shall see on the rest.
matuski
Footballguy
All I'm saying. Not everyone is giving these accusations this courtesy.
I'm thinking a few of you are a little sensitive to my posting. The knee jerk reaction to jump the posts without considering that there is a chance you might agree.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I agree we should wait and see, I don't agree that we aren't. Where do you see people assuming the guilt of everyone involved? Is there an NFL Network accusation thread where everyone's jumping on Faulk? Heath Evans? Donovan McNabb? If so, I've missed it.All I'm saying. Not everyone is giving these accusations this courtesy.
I'm thinking a few of you are a little sensitive to my posting. The knee jerk reaction to jump the posts without considering that there is a chance you might agree.
I don't see where what you're saying is currently happening is actually happening. That's what I'm asking you about.
Edit: But I'll also say, when someone accuses a group of people of outrageous things and one of them admits to his part... the rest becomes more credible.
Last edited by a moderator:
sho nuff
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Lets go ahead and make this simple.
Are there false accusations that have been made in regard to sexual assault/misconduct? Are the masses beginning to react like a mob towards these accusations?
If you think yes/possible, there isn't an issue here. If you don't acknowledge this possibility/reality, we disagree. Either way.. I think we have gone around this circle enough.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm just asking you for an example of "the masses beginning to react like a mob towards these accusations." I think it's possible, I just haven't seen evidence of it. It being "possible" doesn't fit with what you said - which was that it seems to be happening. Why is it so hard to answer the question of what makes it seem that way?Lets go ahead and make this simple.
Are there false accusations that have been made in regard to sexual assault/misconduct? Are the masses beginning to react like a mob towards these accusations?
If you think yes/possible, there isn't an issue here. If you don't acknowledge this possibility/reality, we disagree. Either way.. I think we have gone around this circle enough.
Hi hf,
I don't know about threads here or anyone jumping on anyone, but I do think the immediate practical assumption for guys like McNabb / Sapp / Faulk / Evans is guilt. Would you agree?
And that very well may be completely just and proper. I'm just saying I do think the immediate assumption is guilt.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I don't know about anyone else involved, but by the time I heard about these allegations, Sapp already admitted to bringing sex toys to work as gifts on Twitter. That's the only guilt I've even discussed or seen discussion about on these allegations.
I don't think the immediate assumption of Franken was guilt. I don't think the immediate assumption of George HW Bush was guilt. I don't think the immediate assumption of Garrison Keillor was guilt. Or Sylvester Stallone, or Geoffrey Rush, or Oliver Stone. I don't see what you're referring to as - and am not sure what you mean by - "the immediate practical assumption" being guilt.
Thanks. I think we disagree there and that's cool. I do think most people immediately assume guilt. But that's just my guess.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The most recent of those was three years ago, the oldest over eleven years. It's a pretty monumental stretch to say that's included in what "seems to be happening."
And, again, both are examples of near-criminal behavior by supposedly disinterested parties. Which are pretty extreme examples to use to say that the public is jumping to conclusions.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think you're right, but I don't think it's unusual. Unless the allegations are totally out of character or not credible in some way, I think most people assume a person accused of doing something wrong is guilty of something close to what they're accused of doing, simply because they usually are. We see the same thing any time someone accuses an athlete of using PEDs, for example. And it's particularly true if the accuser if the victim- if you saw a story where someone accused a financial advisor of embezzling their money, wouldn't you immediately guess it was probably true? You wouldn't be certain or want them convicted without due process, obviously. But I think most people would tend to believe an accuser- who generally has little motivation to lie- over the accused, who obviously has every motivation to lie.
So I don't think it has anything to do with sexual misconduct specifically, I think it's just rational thinking. The only thing that's different when it comes to this stuff is that historically we've ignored or downplayed these types of accusations and there's a concerted effort to push back against that now.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
This I might agree with. But I think there's often a big difference, especially in allegations of sexual misconduct, between believing the accuser and believing the accused is guilty of something.
Consider: "we went back to his place, and he gave me [insert drug] and I took it and then he had sex with me."
I think we all would probably assume she's telling the truth, because to do otherwise is to assume she's lying (and therefore guilty of something herself.) But that doesn't mean the guy is guilty of something. There are a lot of ways to interpret that. Maybe she asked him to give her [drug.] Maybe he gave it to her for later, and she took it and she didn't know. Maybe he said "before you take this, while you're still sober, I want to talk about whether you want to have sex so this doesn't happen under the influence." Maybe they were married and liked to take drugs together and have sex all the time. The possibilities are near endless. Believing the woman doesn't necessarily mean the guy has committed a crime or even a horrible act. In some cases it does, but most cases are pretty complex.
You used your own personally example of Stacia Robitaille to rile up mob in here, which by all accounts I've read, is just an unwanted advance. For example.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
To rile up the mob? No... to say "if you're on the fence about whether he tried to get women to cheat on their husbands on a regular basis with him, and it makes any difference, I believe this woman whom I know." And I never said it was anything other than an aggressive, unwanted advance. Can you show my all my riling and statements that it was something else?
In fact, I didn't bring it up. I didn't know about it until someone else posted it and I reacted to it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
About the guy who brought all Bill Clinton's accusers to the RNC convention with him and had a press conference. This administration and its defenders have officially killed irony.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't know that I can put a quantifiable source for why I think that. It just seems to be how things are. All the NFL Network guys are suspended or cut pending investigation. Even if the investigation comes back ok, I'd say none of these guys is getting a job anytime soon in a public position. Again, I could be totally wrong - it's just how it feels to me.
Yep, and by doing so you put her in the same bucket as the 16 women:
timschochet
Footballguy
Of course there should be tiers. Of course we shouldn’t lump everything together.
But I would argue that the main reason people are lumping everything together these days is because of an inherent contradiction that is currently going on in our society. That contradiction is:
1. As a society, we have FINALLY decided that sexual harassment and abuse will no longer be tolerated. Better late than never. That’s what the Me Too movement is all about. There’s no going back from it, and that’s a good thing.
2. We just elected a President of the United States that is almost for sure guilty of sexual harassment and abuse.
We need to rectify this contradiction.
And to be clear, I'm not saying immediate assumption of guilt is the wrong response. It's just an observation. Certainly, the scales had been grossly tilted toward in favor of the people doing wrong in the past. Maybe this is a necessary counter. I dunno. It's mostly just an observation.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I haven't seen anything with them being "cut." They're on indefinite leave with pay from NFL Network and ESPN.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Bringing it back to Trump, I think this column does a pretty good job of capturing why he's particularly undeserving of the benefit of the doubt:
Trump respects women, you disgusting floozy
Trump respects women, you disgusting floozy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
What I said was "If anyone's still convinced that the accusers are lying about all of this, I know Stacia Robitaille personally. If it makes any difference, I don't believe for an instant she would lie about this." It is similar behavior to that discussed by other accusers, albeit on a tamer scale. If that's irrelevant to you, cool. That's why I included "if it makes any difference."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I thought I'd seen cut but I'm sure you're right. Cutting them could be a liability before an investigation. Should have said, "All the NFL Network guys are suspended pending investigation. Even if the investigation comes back ok, I'd say none of these guys is getting a job anytime soon in a public position. Again, I could be totally wrong - it's just how it feels to me."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
But they still have jobs in public positions. They're just suspended. I don't understand.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Similar threads
