Taking in a child from a troubled home NOV '23 UPDATE: Epilogue (2 Viewers)

You tried your best. T & P for you guys.

Wow, don't let her ruin your life.  

MikeIke said:

They're not involved, but we may get with them. For now, Padme is still at the hospital. I'm going to talk with the counselor and psychiatrist tomorrow to see what their feelings are about Padme’s outburst today. 

It's literally like two different people. She's been nice and sweet all week when meeting with doctors, counselors, and psychiatrists. I had a really great session with her today at 1:00 with the psychiatrist. 

Then my wife met with her and the counselor and Padme went into attack mode. My wife was crying, Padme was mocking my wife for crying, and the counselor didn't know what to say - I think she was stunned by Padme’s viciousness. 

Like I said earlier, this girl may very well be a ligitimate sociopath. 

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Brutal updates and I'm sorry for everything. Really curious to see what the doctors and counselor say. 

I really want to hear what the counselor and psychiatrist have to say tomorrow. The behavioral unit that Padme is in right now is for Crisis Therapy - you try to kill yourself, they take 3-5 days to talk through it. I don't think that's what she needs. 

Before tonight I think Padme had us all fooled, and they might have sent her home on Friday. After what the counselor saw today, I sincerely hope they recommend long-term confinement. I can't bring this kid back into my home. 

I'm absolutely devastated. Plus, my dog just died on Thursday. This sucks. 

:(

Jefferson the Caregiver said:

Wow, don't let her ruin your life.  

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That is the mode that I'm switching to. If I have to toss Padme aside to save my wife and two sons, I will. I love this kid but not as much as I love my family. At some time I may need to decide between her and them, and she will lose. 

I don't want to get to that point but it feels like I'm inching closer and closer. 

This is so hard to read. Brutal all the way around.

MikeIke said:

They're not involved, but we may get with them. For now, Padme is still at the hospital. I'm going to talk with the counselor and psychiatrist tomorrow to see what their feelings are about Padme’s outburst today. 

It's literally like two different people. She's been nice and sweet all week when meeting with doctors, counselors, and psychiatrists. I had a really great session with her today at 1:00 with the psychiatrist. 

Then my wife met with her and the counselor and Padme went into attack mode. My wife was crying, Padme was mocking my wife for crying, and the counselor didn't know what to say - I think she was stunned by Padme’s viciousness. 

Like I said earlier, this girl may very well be a ligitimate sociopath. 

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A coworker adopted a daughter with problems long ago.  It's been a really rough ride the whole way, running away from home, I think some suicide attempts, outbursts, attacks... early on, it was obvious that she was bipolar, but apparently there's something really weird about diagnosing children with bipolar disorder, and children don't really meet the description... so to get proper treatment, she had to wait until she was a certain age or exhibited some extra symptoms.  Goofy stuff.

Anyway, she was a carnie for a while, now is back at home and coworker is raising his grandkids.  He's a saint for what he's done, but I know I couldn't have done it.  Good luck sorting this all out, MikeIke.

:(

Tick said:

A coworker adopted a daughter with problems long ago.  It's been a really rough ride the whole way, running away from home, I think some suicide attempts, outbursts, attacks... early on, it was obvious that she was bipolar, but apparently there's something really weird about diagnosing children with bipolar disorder, and children don't really meet the description... so to get proper treatment, she had to wait until she was a certain age or exhibited some extra symptoms.  Goofy stuff.

Anyway, she was a carnie for a while, now is back at home and coworker is raising his grandkids.  He's a saint for what he's done, but I know I couldn't have done it.  Good luck sorting this all out, MikeIke.

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When it comes to children, a psychiatrist will never diagnose sociopathy, psychopathy, or any other life-defining diagnosis like that. The brain can change, and Padme is only 12 years old. 

I honestly think she has no empathy. She's only concerned with herself and her sister. My layman's diagnosis is borderline personality disorder and malignant narcissism. 

I've had quite a bit of experience with borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder through my wife. I see a LOT of the same things in Padme. 

MikeIke said:

I've had quite a bit of experience with borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder through my wife. I see a LOT of the same things in Padme. 

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BPD is tough. Sorry you have that on your plate. 

I'm not saying you should stick it out or jump ship, but do you find it that shocking she only cares about herself and her sister after her craptastic family upbringing? I can understand how that might have been developed over the years. And isn't her caring about her sister a point against lacking any empathy? 

On a curious and mostly unrelated note, sociopath behavior isn't a genetic destiny.

Hilts said:

BPD is tough. Sorry you have that on your plate. 

I'm not saying you should stick it out or jump ship, but do you find it that shocking she only cares about herself and her sister after her craptastic family upbringing? I can understand how that might have been developed over the years. And isn't her caring about her sister a point against lacking any empathy? 

On a curious and mostly unrelated note, sociopath behavior isn't a genetic destiny.

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You're right, and the psychiatrist has mentioned that she seems to have genuine feelings toward her sister so that tends to disqualify sociopathy. There ARE emotions there, which a genuine sociopath wouldn't have. That's what leads me toward a malignant narcissist disorder diagnosis - she has feelings but only for those that she invites into her inner circle. Everyone else, they don't matter. 

Unfortunately, the people that she's living with fall I to that "don't matter" category. And that's me, my wife, and our two sons. 

I'm reaching the point where I have to decide between saving this girl or saving my family. If that's the question, I choose my family every time.

MikeIke said:

You're right, and the psychiatrist has mentioned that she seems to have genuine feelings toward her sister so that tends to disqualify sociopathy. There ARE emotions there, which a genuine sociopath wouldn't have. That's what leads me toward a malignant narcissist disorder diagnosis - she has feelings but only for those that she invites into her inner circle. Everyone else, they don't matter. 

Unfortunately, the people that she's living with fall I to that "don't matter" category. And that's me, my wife, and our two sons. 

I'm reaching the point where I have to decide between saving this girl or saving my family. If that's the question, I choose my family every time.

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As you should. If it reaches that point you'll be making the right move to put your sons and wife (and yourself) out of harm's way by removing the problem. 

MikeIke said:

I've had quite a bit of experience with borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder through my wife. I see a LOT of the same things in Padme. 

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If I were to guess, I'd say your wife is going to really paint Padme black after that counseling session. Long lasting damage for their relationship. Am I in the ballpark of how you see it?

Do you have any guesses as to why she had the episode when your wife was present, but not when you were present? Is it possible that your wife's own bipolar condition triggered something in her? Or is Padme just more likely to behave around you because you are a man?

MikeIke said:

I honestly don't want her to come back to our house. I wouldn't mind her being institutionalized and letting my family get back to normal. 

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Tough decision Mike, but no one would fault you for that.  You and your wife (and family) have given this your all.  

Also, what happens if you tell the hospital that you won't take her back? Where does she go? It seems like these days people don't get institutionalized unless they commit a crime, and since Padme hasn't committed a crime (yet)......she'll just get released. But to where?

Sorry to hear you going through this. From your posts tonight, the thing that strikes me the most is the reaction she had when she saw your wife. It might be that those two are not meant to be around each other.   Good luck with it all.  hang in there.

ETA: It might be a conflict with anyone she sees in the mother role because it's failed her so much in the past.

So sorry to hear about this MI - will be keeping you and yours in my heart.

This is heart breaking.  And I agree if you feel you need to choose between your family and Padme, you need to choose your family.  But you also took a huge risk and did a great, brave thing.  Remember she's a child who has been screwed basically since birth and you might be her only lifeline.  Again, choose your family first and feel no shame whatsoever if things won't work with her.  But at least try to remember she needs help and a family.

This is much easier said than done.  Good luck, whatever you choose.  You still did a great thing, no matter how it works out.

Frostillicus said:

This is heart breaking.  And I agree if you feel you need to choose between your family and Padme, you need to choose your family.  But you also took a huge risk and did a great, brave thing.  Remember she's a child who has been screwed basically since birth and you might be her only lifeline.  Again, choose your family first and feel no shame whatsoever if things won't work with her.  But at least try to remember she needs help and a family.

This is much easier said than done.  Good luck, whatever you choose.  You still did a great thing, no matter how it works out.

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I agree with Frosty, but this is one tough spot to be in.  I'm so sorry this is going this way.

First of all, to even attempt this I have major respect.

That being said, everything I read suggests the decision is already made.   

Don't give up on this poor child.  Unless you need to.  Ugh.  I don't even know how to write what I'm trying to say.

Wow. Sorry to hear. Padme's early life struggles and with a yet to be diagnosed mental illness is rough. Your wife may remind her of the horrid mother she had, not because she is like her, but because she is a mom figure. 

She needs serious long term therapy and probably meds from a good child psychiatrist. 

My cousin's kid has him by the balls with this I'll kill you and myself if you (insert discipline or treatment here). It's not going to change until he gets jailed and even then, look at all the people that go right back to their old lives over and over. We are forever waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sucks.

The thing is when dealing with someone who has so much anger, spite and rage, violence can easily follow. My cousin is stuck because it's his kid. You however aren't and you don't know if her harsh words will turn into violence or deadly. 

You tried but time to set her up to get the help she needs. You've done a lot for her but this isn't an easy or quick fix. 

Best wishes. X

I've stayed away from writing for the same reason as Frostillicus. Just know that I'm thinking of you and your family in this difficult time. I hope things break your way, so to speak. 

:(

No words, but sorry! I just prayed for you, your family, including Padme! 

Frostillicus said:

Don't give up on this poor child.  Unless you need to.  Ugh.  I don't even know how to write what I'm trying to say.

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This

before making any final decisions, ask yourself this - if she was a daughter by birth what other things would you try. Wrote these things down. Meet w the psychologists / etc who are helping, ask them what other things you might try. 

Build a good options list and evaluate it.  There are options here 

 I have no words of wisdom other than I feel for you guys.

This sucks. This poor kid probably never had a chance. She doesn't even know how to handle a normal upbringing. 

Just follow your instincts going forward. It's all you can do. We're all behind you, GB. 

MikeIke said:

I honestly don't want her to come back to our house. I wouldn't mind her being institutionalized and letting my family get back to normal. 

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I think its very fair to feel this way. I'm sorry it has come to this. Best wishes and I hope things work out for your family and Padme fights through her own demons.

:(

Sorry to hear, good vibes out to you and the family. I'm sure you will do what is best, definitely a tough spot.  

Damn, so sad reading this. I didn't see the last update so I didn't know that things had gone bad.

None of us can understand how you are really feeling right now. We all hoped for a happy ending for Padme and your family. It would be easy to say to not give up on her but you have to consider, and obviously are, the safety of your family. Who knows what this girl is capable of.

Best of luck, we are all rooting for you.

Respect. Thank you @MikeIke for doing what you've done and what you're doing. It's people like you that are the rock stars of this world. Not the people who won the genetics lottery and can be professional athletes or models or musicians or whatever. I can't imagine what this must be like for you and your family but I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone here when I say you have our respect. 

Follow your instincts. Obviously I don't know you but I can see enough here to trust you'll do the right things. I'm praying for discernment and wisdom and peace for you and family. Thank you for giving a damn. 

This is heartbreaking. You and your family are saints for trying. Respectfully, it does sound like it is time for your family to move on from this. You've done what you can.

wilked said:

This

before making any final decisions, ask yourself this - if she was a daughter by birth what other things would you try. Wrote these things down. Meet w the psychologists / etc who are helping, ask them what other things you might try. 

Build a good options list and evaluate it.  There are options here 

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Agreed. Same thing I was thinking.  She IS a member of your family, and it would be no different if this were a birth child displaying this behavior. It eventually gets to the point of protecting yourself and the rest of your family, and it sounds like you're there. Hopefully she gets the long term care she clearly needs, but if not, you have to make the decision that protects your family. I don't envy the choice that you'd have to make if it comes to that, but as others have said, much respect for the steps you've taken thus far. T&P, GB.

Just wishing you the best and my thoughts are with you, your family and Padme.

What you are working through is a tremendous lesson in courage and caring.

MikeIke said:

I honestly don't want her to come back to our house. I wouldn't mind her being institutionalized and letting my family get back to normal. 

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God bless, friend. It's the old Maxim, "no good deed goes unpunished".

Sounds like Padme is bipolar or has some type of behavioral disorder. Which would explain why her family is the way it is. Having said that, I dated an adult woman who was bipolar and it was a NIGHTMARE.

Couldn't imagine raising a stranger's kid who had it. You literally can't win. She'll flip a switch at any second, for no good reason.

Heartbreaking.  :(

So tough.  But can you really blame her for not having you and your wife in her inner circle?  She probably feels like she's been betrayed by every adult out there.  It's probably a defense mechanism by this point.  I don't have any good advice to give, it's your family, you know what is happening better than anyone.  Having a wife with BPD just compounds everything even more.  I would completely understand if you had to walk away for the sake of your marriage and safety of your other kids, but I also fear that if you can't make it work then she is going to be beyond saving.  I wish you the best of luck in your decisions going forward, I don't envy you in the least for that.

I feel terribly for you.  

I have an adopted sister.  We later found out that the birth mother was a hard core drug addict and had abused drugs and alcohol during pregnancy.  That abuse led to some rather serious behavioral (rage) issues for my sister.   I think its fair to say that she ruined our family dynamic almost from the start. My parents' relationship with each other became strained.  There was alot of yelling & anger in my house from that point on.    My mother is a completely different person because of it.  I'd go so far as to say that she's a shell of what she once was.  She was traumatized by the experience.  She used to be a happy, positive person and now is incredibly negative & depressed.   My mother told me recently that she carries around a tremendous sense of guilt because she doesn't know if she truly ever loved my sister.  She feels like a terrible person because she contemplated the idea of giving my sister back on several occasions.  She also feels that she let me & my brothers down by bringing my sister into our family & I'm pretty sure that she wishes that she never went through with the adoption.  She just wasn't equipped to deal with my sister's special needs.   Fast forward to now and although my sister lives on her own, she makes terrible choices and will always be a burden to my parents.  

I'd say that my sister benefited greatly from being part of our family, but it came at the expense of my mother's long term happiness.   Yours is a complicated issue with lasting consequences - no matter what you choose to do.   I wish you the best of luck. 

MikeIke said:

Worst week yet. Padme had a suicide attempt (overdose of Tylenol and Advil) Saturday. We put her in the psych ward at Children's Hospital Sunday night. 

She'd made progress throughout the week but today she had a session with my wife and the counselor and it was an absolute mess.

The hospital folks have been telling me how great Padme is - so pleasant, so sweet. Then when my wife saw her tonight Padme went into attack mode and said every hurtful thing she could think of. My wife is devastated. 

I have no idea what happens next but it doesn't look good. 

I regret ever taking her in. 

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not having all the context.. but reading this reminded me of what the doctors & nurses told us when my kids were born about "purple crying".

it was something along the lines of "you are going to be tired, the kid is going to cry a lot and you're not going to get sleep.. then you're going to send her to your mom & dad's and she'll be a perfect angel for hours. she'll sleep & eat great. she'll smile and laugh. your mom will tell you what a great baby you're raising and how she's such a sweet little angel....

then you'll get her in the car and she'll start to cry... and she'll #### herself... and she'll kick and claw at you when you take her out of the car.... and she'll fight tooth and nail when you change her and it might go on for hours. and when you think you can't take it anymore she'll fall asleep in your arms and you'll wonder why she hates you so much that she would put you through this while grandma gets a pass.

and it's because babies feel most comfortable expressing themselves when they feel safe. it's nature. when they are uncertain or don't feel totally comfortable with their environment they aren't going to do things like cry and fuss. they aren't going to let their guard down. as convoluted as it sounds your baby is going to cry the most when she's with you because she feels safest and most able to let down her guard when she's with you."

how much of that was just smoke at the time... had no idea. but it has definitely borne out over time. 

think of how you are at work. even if you're tired and frustrated and pissed off, you've gotta keep up at least some front. but when you get out of the office you can finally let down and let loose. whether that's grabbing a beer, swinging the golf clubs or punching a heavy bag.. whatever. you, too, let down your guard and let your feelings out.

at least i hope that's what this little girl is going through with you and your wife. my family fostered kids when i was younger and it was rough at times. real bad. we went through the ringer with some of those kids... but of all of them i think my mom has only lost touch with one and she was probably the least troubled of all

anyways, good luck. you'll know what the right decision is for you and yours   

Have you had her tested for special education? She *MAY* qualify for an emotional impairment and could possibly get services through a special school for kids with extreme behavior problems. She would need to be in the public school system for that. Has she been tested in the past?

Fostering is an extremely noble undertaking. Seems to me that there are two types of situations foster parents face in the type of kid they're fostering.

First type is where the kid has simply been dealt a raw deal. The provision of a loving, protective, and/or stable situation is what they need to get on a good path. These kids may come with trust issues but they are able to rationalize the situation given time and love.

The second, however, is a kid that - for whatever reason - is not capable of rational thought. This puts an additional, and in my view unreasonable, expectation that the foster parent has to be a mental health professional.

I don't think there should be any feelings of failure (or the like) if you simply don't have the ability to help the second type. 

In other words, I don't see it as giving up or abandoning a kid you thought you could help. This girl, specifically, sounds like someone who needs the kind of help that no foster home could provide. There should be no shame, or what have you, on coming to that realization.

This is awful. I feel bad for you, but I also feel bad for that girl. She needs serious longterm help, and weekly counseling sessions aren't going to be enough.

Itchy Amos's story really resonates with me. Padme would surely benefit from continuing to be a part of your family........but at what cost?

Sorry about your dog too. 

let's keep this thread pinned for perspective.  the next time any of us have a minor life inconvenience that we feel is earth shattering, we can come here and know mike/ike has it much much worse.  today, my ice coffee dripped on my hand...

Hi @MikeIke

I haven't been able to shake this today. It was especially chilling to read back through the entire thread knowing where it is now.

A couple of thoughts. And pardon me, but this is mostly me dumping out my thoughts here. 

1. "Rescuing" something is one of the best things humans can do. It's selfless and puts others ahead of you. Even when it's one's job, it's admired. There's a reason ER Doctors and Firefighters and Paramedics are elevated in society. Rightly so. I think we're wired to love something being "saved". There's a reason comeback stories are so loved. There's a reason people love the underdog. When all seems lost, the crowd cheers when the thing is saved at the last moment. In the best parts of ourselves, we are wired to be drawn towards "rescue". And nothing is more valued to rescue than a child. And the world is a better place for it. 

2. Another thing we value as humans is "keeping your word" or "doing what you say". From politicians to people selling products, we are continually disappointed when people don't keep their word. Whether it's a campaign promise or the promise the detergent will get the grass stain out, people want promises kept. Many individual people put great pride in doing what they say they'll do. Keeping a promise is universally admired. Breaking a promise is seen just as strongly but in the negative. 

3. Everyone has priorities. Yeah, we're all supposed to love everyone. Reality is there's a priority. For most people. It's family. Above pretty much everything else. In other words, most of us would have no trouble breaking the law if it meant feeding our family. Or doing things much bigger. Bottom line, protecting your wife and biological children are your priority. That's not just normal. That's commendable. I wish Padme's mother and father had felt this way more strongly. Bottom line is I'm guessing this isn't about comfort or convenience. This is about you protecting your wife and sons. 

If I'm understanding rightly, the problem lies with reconciling the first two points with the third.

You want to rescue Padme. And you want to keep your word to her, to others and to yourself. But it feels like doing those things are opposed to protecting your family. Both emotionally and maybe physically. I don't have the answer. But for me sometimes framing the problem helps. 

A couple more thoughts. Sadly, just as random.

Choices are awful sometimes. If it truly does come down to Padme or your family, I think you know what you're going to do. BUT, the question as I see it comes down to not "Padme or my family" but "IS IT TRULY a choice of Padme or my family"? Does that make sense? In other words, the ideal answer is you don't have to choose. That it's NOT really a choice of Padme or your family. And determining the answer is something probably only you and your wife can know. 

Which leads to the next point that you know is obvious but I'll say anyway. Your wife has to be a gigantic part of this. Something of this magnitude has to be you and your wife in unison. I'd caution to fully explore this as much as possible. You don't want this to resurface down the road that she felt strong-armed into something she wasn't 100% on board with. I'd err on the side of over-communicating here.

And maybe the biggest one is this: The hard reality is all you can do is all you can do. Specifically - You can't save everyone. And that sucks. I deal with this when we do the Homeless stuff downtown. My inclination is to bring five folks home with me every time and let them move in with me. But that's not realistic. And that's ok. The "would you save the dog or the drowning person" threads here were popular for a reason. Sometimes it's real and hard choices. It's awful, but sometimes life is like the battlefield MASH unit and you simply can't save them all. It's maybe one of the toughest parts for war for the survivors. But in the end, you have to accept what I opened with. All you can do is all you can do. 

I know you're not looking for affirmation or answers here. And I'm sorry this post was so rambling. I finally gave up on a cogent response and just started typing. But I'm guessing I speak for all of us when I say nobody at this point is going to fault you for whatever choice you make. We're with you.

Thank you for all you've done so far and all you're doing. It's people like you that give me faith in humanity. Thank you.