Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Wouldn’t it have been smarter for the Raiders to beat the Rams to the punch & set the market instead of playing catch-up?
seems the lack of negotiation may have cost them more $.
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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter joey
- Start date
seems the lack of negotiation may have cost them more $.
Silver & Black
Footballguy
No crying over spilled milk. Donald's deal is done, now we have to get Mack's deal done. He's a generational player. The team is clearly, finally heading in the right direction. We're moving to Vegas. Let's lock him up and hit sin city ready to kick some ### and take names.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
It would have been smarter and I think the Raiders made an offer to Mack months ago? I don't know what to believe any more though.
I really think, just as other posters do, that Mack wants to be the highest paid and was willing to wait for Donald to make this happen. MassRaider has been pretty good with his analysis of this situation and the clock does start now. The next few days will be telling.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Agree...but unless this puts us in a position of cap trouble paying other guys in the next few years, I think Mack is still worth it.
We shouldn't be pound wise, penny foolish. I'd favor tying Mack up instead of haggling over how much is guaranteed vs not.
Best frugal move for Raiders is tagging Mack, which may indeed still be best for the team -- but let's keep the big man happy and productive and a Raider for the longest duration we can.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Seriously - and how much is lost from a lack of camp or (gulp) 1-2-3 missed games?
Plus as you mentioned, his happiness.
I know some are putting a positive spin on this - I don’t see it as anything but a distraction:
and ain’t no team gonna give up 2x 1st round picks AND have to pay him, so Gruden’s being a little silly there.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Donald's deal is 6/135, but also includes the final year of his current deal, so it's really 7/141 or just over $20 MM per year. According to the leaks about Khalil's demands, that is way less than what he wants AND it's actually not far off from Von Miller who got $19 per.
What I'm trying to say here is that Donald's deal appears to be very close to what the Raiders have already offered. I suspect this drama with Mack will end soon with a new deal in the $20-21 MM per range and likely more guaranteed than what the Raiders had in mind, which was probably closer to Von's $70 MM than Donald's $87 MM.
Personally, I don't mind the extra guaranteed to get this deal done. Mack isn't going to suddenly bust, so it's pure injury risk. Fine with that.
Oh, and BTW, the Raiders haven't asked for 2 first rounders. That is pure conjecture on the part of teams who called and were told to kick rocks when they offered a first rounder and some other scraps. The Raiders haven't asked for anything because THEY ARE NOT TRADING HIM!
What I'm trying to say here is that Donald's deal appears to be very close to what the Raiders have already offered. I suspect this drama with Mack will end soon with a new deal in the $20-21 MM per range and likely more guaranteed than what the Raiders had in mind, which was probably closer to Von's $70 MM than Donald's $87 MM.
Personally, I don't mind the extra guaranteed to get this deal done. Mack isn't going to suddenly bust, so it's pure injury risk. Fine with that.
Oh, and BTW, the Raiders haven't asked for 2 first rounders. That is pure conjecture on the part of teams who called and were told to kick rocks when they offered a first rounder and some other scraps. The Raiders haven't asked for anything because THEY ARE NOT TRADING HIM!
LawFitz
Footballguy
Per Rappaport -
Detroit is starved for DL. Maybe they can swing a deal for a 7th rounder. MEJ good as gone IMO, one way or another. Fadol, Shilique, Hester and the twin mini Aaron Donalds thoroughly outclassed him. Dude looked defeated in the 2nd half last night when he should've been dominating future baristas.
massraider
Footballguy
Yes, and the Carr deal is a good example of getting a deal done early and saving millions. Mack and his agent maybe weren't as willing as Carr was to get an early deal done, if it meant less money down the road. Carr could have waited till he was franchised, played out the year, and got a lot more. Which would have been his right.
We have no idea what's been offered. The no talk since Feb thing seems pretty widely covered, so let's assume that's true. We don't know it is, but let's assume that. We don't know who cut off negotiations.
It takes two to tango. We have no statements from his agent saying that the Raiders aren't negotiating in good faith. If Mack wants top contract, and his agent wants to be the agent of the guy that got top deal, it's a waiting game. It's in Segal's best interest to get a better deal, and it's in Mack's best interest to make as much as possible. Mack doesn't have the leverage of being a free agent, but he does have some leverage. To pretend he doesn't is unrealistic. He's one of the top two defenders in the league, and is an All-Pro at two positions.
I think it's important to realize that no one from the Raiders, or from the Mack camp, has made any public statements stating unhappiness with the process, or bad blood with the other side. If things were as bad as all this, why wouldn't the agent state that he didn't think a deal could get done, or some other statement insinuating the sides were miles apart?
All that to say, we may need to rethink the notion of poor Mack and his agent sitting by the phone, longingly waiting for it to ring. They might be quite happy with the way things are going.
I do think it's good news that the Donald deal didn't drag into the season.
massraider
Footballguy
I am not Bruce Irvin, if you were wondering.
massraider
Footballguy
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
- Harris is our return specialist. He will be on the team. How can you tell the kids on the team that the pre-season games is where you make the team and not keep Hatcher now? It is a damn good problem to have- making hard decisions like this. It means we have quality talent that goes deep. But we need good decisions here to win games.
- I am still wondering if we look to the scrap heap of cuts for our backup. I didn't get to see the last game but it sounds like Cook and Manuel didn't play like poo as much as the other games.
- I think Brown sealed Edwards fate. Reports are that the Raiders are shopping Edwards currently.
- Again, didn't see the game or who played. I think we are leaps above last years in the secondary though.
- Yea, but damn, it is going to be hard to find a roster spot for him as he won't get a lot of action this year unless he drastically improves in all the aspects of the game when the ball is not in his hands. But yea, Warren is Beastmode Jr.
- Geez. Again. Who do we cut. Who do we keep. PLEASE make a lot of trade Reggie.... well, when you have free time from getting Mack signed at least.
- As noted above, MEJ is being shopped right now. So, I think he is officially out of the bubble and we are hoping to get some value from having him leave.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
You need two parties to agree to a contract to not wait. All part of the game. As a Raider fan, yea, sign Mack 6 months ago to an extension. If I was Mack's agent.... just wait young fella. Just wait.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah - agents of course always have the players best interests at heart, too.
/sarcasm
it’s too bad - this whole thing really seems to have overshadowed the excitement of Gruden & what could be a promising season for the Silver & Black.
as others have said, they should still be decent on defense, but nothing will convince me that any team can lose a player of Mack’s caliber and not be worse off as a result.
Hopefully they get this resolved quickly - Mack is one of the main reasons to watch Raiders games in my opinion.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Yea, it is a question if we can get something (A 7th is what I would expect) or nothing for him. It will all depend on whether a team wants to see if they can get him after he is cut or if they really like him and do not want to risk it.
LawFitz
Footballguy
@Chadstroma - this regime seems content to just secure moves up the draft board, rather than additional picks. I could see them trading MEJ + a 7th for someone's 6th.
@Hot Sauce Guy - 99.9% they're not losing Mack. Quit your hand wringing.
@Hot Sauce Guy - 99.9% they're not losing Mack. Quit your hand wringing.
massraider
Footballguy
It's tough to make last minute deals for players that will be free in a few hours. I'm not gonna get my hopes up.
No room for Mario with this young crew. Vanderdoes looked as good/better than him, and we need to make space for him this season. Calhoun gonna make the team? Yeah, OK, I guess. I'm still waiting to be convinced.
I'm hoping some safeties showed enough to cut Reggie Nelson.
Hoping Richard makes it.
Fadol Brown looks like a Denico Autry level of contributor, at the least.
Azeem Victor and Keon Hatcher to the PS, please.
Is Derrick Johnson safe? I think he is.
I might keep Holton over Ateman for special teams, and PS Ateman.
No room for Mario with this young crew. Vanderdoes looked as good/better than him, and we need to make space for him this season. Calhoun gonna make the team? Yeah, OK, I guess. I'm still waiting to be convinced.
I'm hoping some safeties showed enough to cut Reggie Nelson.
Hoping Richard makes it.
Fadol Brown looks like a Denico Autry level of contributor, at the least.
Azeem Victor and Keon Hatcher to the PS, please.
Is Derrick Johnson safe? I think he is.
I might keep Holton over Ateman for special teams, and PS Ateman.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m not saying they’ll lose Mack. I said he might miss a couple games - since that’s what’s being reported.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Always remember, the media hates the Raiders. So... whatever the worst possible scenario is... that is what they push. It is pure muscle reflex on their part now.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Agreed. Packaging to move up is very possible. Perhaps probable. But any trade for us with him is a positive.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
You think Hatcher makes it to PS? I doubt it after that last game.
Derrick Johnson safe? I don't know. If forced, I would lean to I don't think he is.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I dunno - there seemed to be a real positive buzz in the media over Gruden, Carr being healthy, etc.
I suspect folks are correct that the AD signing will be a catalyst for Mack to sign, but if the Raiders stock to their guns about not wanting to guarantee so much $, this could get ugly.
massraider
Footballguy
Yes. I don't think one game against not-real-NFL-players makes anyone wanna put him on their 53 man roster. He's not making this team.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I have seen as much poo poo over Gruden and his being out of the game and the game has passed him up and bla bla bla blow me crap as I saw buzz about Gruden.
LawFitz
Footballguy
You've been denigrating Gruden and chicken littling the Mack situation all week. In the NFL all the games count, so losing Mack for any of them hurts. But they had to get here in order to avoid paying him $25 MM per year. It was the right move on the team's part for a multitude of reasons.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I am not saying he is making the team. I do not think he makes it to the PS if we cut him though. There are teams that are thin at WR and I think that game will make them take a hard look at him. And I bet one will pull the trigger over a WR they played in week 4 that didn't show anything like that performance.
You say he is not making the 53. OK, I am cool with that. I don't even really disagree. I wouldn't be shocked to see him make it but not shocked to see him not either. As much as you are confident that he won't make the 53, I am confident that he won't be on our PS one way or the other.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
While I made the same argument/caveat of Hatcher looking great against sub-par talent, and knowing the Raiders have better overall intel on Hatcher's talent (on it's own and vis a vis other WRs on the team) than I do....
...Hatcher COMPLETELY passed my eye test. Wasn't that he looked unstoppable (and he did...against scrubs), it's the level of contribution he made all over the field.
Given that he contributes well to ST duties, I think it makes the Hatcher/Harris very interesting. I give props to Harris who is a pro-bowler, but he was experiencing ball control issues in the return game in 2016, and has just as much history executing on this team as Hatcher does.
And between a 23 year old who looked solid in BOTH ST and receiving, and 30 yr old journeyman whose last significant contribution to either receiving or returning was in 2015/2016, I know where my vote lies.
massraider
Footballguy
Man, I wish I had been reading that.
Starting with their FA signings, and with their drafting of Kolton, I have been reading a lot of sheet about this team.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You must have me confused with someone else.
Please use the quote feature instead of (again) putting words in mouth.
with Mack I’ve been commenting on the updates. I am not “chicken littling” anything - the reports are he may miss games.
Witb regard to Gruden I said it’s foolish that the sides haven’t been working together.
You have a bad habit of exaggerating & misstating people’s opinions. That’s why the quote feature was invented.
I'm just gonna use the ignore feature for the 2nd time today as you are why it was invented.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Don’t get me wrong - I question whether Gruden was worth the money, and even whether he can be successful.
I also even called up local sports radio to question their claim that Gruden “would be a QB guru for Carr”
every QB he had was the definition of a “cagey veteran” - Brad Johnson & Rich Gannon weren’t exactly rookies.
anyway; time will tell - I hope they’re competitive.
massraider
Footballguy
Hey, if we keep him over Roberts, cool with me.
I'll say this about this time of year:
I'm always surprised by the players we keep on PS. It's NEVER the guys we think. Always surprises, and guys that didn't do anything in the games. And everyone overrates their own end of bench guys.
I think Hatcher could wind up on someone else's PS, no doubt. Most likely, if the Raiders want him, he'll stick around.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Hell.... before that. Starting with his contract. Then he has been out of the game and an old school guy that the game has passed up. Then his comments about not liking some of the changes since he was a HC. THEN you get to the FA signings and of course the draft.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Man, Roberts would have had to really pooped all over the field to have them say "Yea, our bad. We will pay you the same amount of money to NOT play for us than to play for us and get no cap relief but just open a roster spot." or maybe.... someone REALLY would have to impress they are a talent way above Roberts to get that move done.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Gannon did poo before working with Gruden. I don't think you could even call Gannon a "cagey veteran" by the time he got to Oakland. He was just a guy that just would never go away. And then Gruden works with him and turned him into a Pro Bowl QB.Don’t get me wrong - I question whether Gruden was worth the money, and even whether he can be successful.
I also even called up local sports radio to question their claim that Gruden “would be a QB guru for Carr”
every QB he had was the definition of a “cagey veteran” - Brad Johnson & Rich Gannon weren’t exactly rookies.
anyway; time will tell - I hope they’re competitive.
Brad, sure, that fits. He did some stuff. But it isn't like he came rolling into TB perfected either.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah; but Gru basically took Dungy’s team & played against his old assistant coach using his old playbook (while Barret Robbins went on a bipolar bender in TJ)
hard to really credit Gruden with that TB SB.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Worley suspended first four games. Few things to note:
1. This opens up a roster spot for the first month. In past years, that would be no big deal, but this year, it could be huge. Gives them four extra weeks to figure out who sticks as #53. I'm scratching my head as to who they will have to cut today.
2. Seems like the league wanted to decide this case before cut downs to make it more fair to the Raiders. If true, that seems to bode well for Bryant's chances of avoiding the suspension rumors that hounded a few weeks ago.
3. More Nick Nelson. Yes, please.
1. This opens up a roster spot for the first month. In past years, that would be no big deal, but this year, it could be huge. Gives them four extra weeks to figure out who sticks as #53. I'm scratching my head as to who they will have to cut today.
2. Seems like the league wanted to decide this case before cut downs to make it more fair to the Raiders. If true, that seems to bode well for Bryant's chances of avoiding the suspension rumors that hounded a few weeks ago.
3. More Nick Nelson. Yes, please.
ICON211
Footballguy
The team, Mack and his agent have said NOTHING so far. That's why I have not been worried about this at all so far. If things were as bad as they were being made out to be there would not have been this level of silence from the people actually involved. Anyone that has reported anything about this so far has just been spouting rumor or just making things up.
massraider
Footballguy
No idea if this is true, and it is sourced about as well as the other stuff we are reading, but if so, I shall enjoy Twitter that day.
massraider
Footballguy
This guy is a writer for Sports Illustrated.
Sports freaking Illustrated. Home of Frank Deford. And we have this dude shooting hot takes about a trade that not one source has said was ever offered. Uggh.
LawFitz
Footballguy
RF.net has been breaking inside info for years. They usually put it behind a paywall, but not this time. I give them way more credence than the rest of the media as it pertains to Raiders rumors. Especially here where their take is fully corroborated by prior info directly from Gruden (and @Silver & Black).
ICON211
Footballguy
Rotoworld gets more comical by the day. They should stick to facts without their editorial takes.
Khalil Mack - DL - Raiders
The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports the Browns are "expected to inquire about" acquiring holdout Raiders DE Khalil Mack.
It's general language, and something we would expect most teams to "inquire about." It's still notable the Browns are one of the first names out there. Pairing Mack with second-year pro Myles Garrett would give the Browns a truly ferocious defensive line. The possibility that Mack gets dealt increases every day.
Khalil Mack - DL - Raiders
The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports the Browns are "expected to inquire about" acquiring holdout Raiders DE Khalil Mack.
It's general language, and something we would expect most teams to "inquire about." It's still notable the Browns are one of the first names out there. Pairing Mack with second-year pro Myles Garrett would give the Browns a truly ferocious defensive line. The possibility that Mack gets dealt increases every day.
Chaka
Footballguy
flapgreen
Footballguy
Of course not yet. With no mention of contract discussions and continuous rumors about the Raiders listening to offers, it's becoming more certain. Smoke and fire
Chaka
Footballguy
Got it. When you said they "are" trading him you were speculating. Just poor grammar, no worries. Carry in.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
No worries. But even if it's not your strong suit, or something you concern yourself with you do understand that it was poor grammar and could lead to misunderstandings around here.I write like I'm speaking on here. Grammar is down my list of concerns in forums.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Didn't see that. In an odd way, I see this as a positive for us. As you say, it opens a spot and then we can bring him on in a month after we have real world game time to see how things work or don't.
I think the Bryant thing is a non-issue.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
^^^ RF.net has sources inside the Raiders. So does @Silver & Black it seems. So does Jon Gruden. All three have indicated no trade happening and a contract is being worked on.
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