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Dynasty & Redraft: QB Josh Rosen, Dolphins

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I got offered pick 19 for Rosen in a 1qb league. I'm intending to accept it if I get Murray at 11. The only reason I haven't accepted now is that it will reduce my chances of getting Murray, because it'll be more obvious I'm after him and I know the 2 picks behind me are both eying him.

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On 5/18/2019 at 6:54 PM, Slapdash said:

Interesting article.  I'm sympathetic because I have also clashed with people in my career because I always need to know the "why" 

Been managing employees for 30 years, “why” guys don’t last long unless they bring much more to the table. Which is usually not the case.

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19 minutes ago, JetMaxx said:

Been managing employees for 30 years, “why” guys don’t last long unless they bring much more to the table. Which is usually not the case.

Luckily I have.  Jury is still out on Josh.  Has a strong arm, but does he have the mentality

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On 5/15/2019 at 3:02 PM, Dr. Dan said:

In one of my leagues, where we do not get penalized for INTs, the "Miami QB" scored only 30 fantasy points less on the season than Dak Prescott, who is considered by many to be a low end QB1 heading into 2019 (he finished, I think, QB16 in this league last year).

This seems rather meaningless for a lot of reasons.

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13 hours ago, jtd13 said:

I got offered pick 19 for Rosen in a 1qb league. I'm intending to accept it if I get Murray at 11. The only reason I haven't accepted now is that it will reduce my chances of getting Murray, because it'll be more obvious I'm after him and I know the 2 picks behind me are both eying him.

Why would trading for Rosen make it more obvious you would want to draft Murray? And in a 1QB league it seems both moves (trading the pick and drafting Murray that high) aren’t all that great value anyway.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JetMaxx said:

Been managing employees for 30 years, “why” guys don’t last long unless they bring much more to the table. Which is usually not the case.

If you don’t have “why guys” your business/company never evolves.  You need to have people to question things or things never change. 

 

Edited to add... I work in the sciences and if you aren’t a “why guy” you don’t last long.  

Edited by Boone22
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4 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Why would trading for Rosen make it more obvious you would want to draft Murray? And in a 1QB league it seems both moves (trading the pick and drafting Murray that high) aren’t all that great value anyway.

He would be trading Rosen away for pick 19.

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3 hours ago, kutta said:

He would be trading Rosen away for pick 19.

My bad. I did misread it.

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On 5/24/2019 at 11:12 PM, JetMaxx said:

Been managing employees for 30 years, “why” guys don’t last long unless they bring much more to the table. Which is usually not the case.

I suppose that depends on the nature of the employee base, but I've found just the opposite in tech.  "why" guys are big picture people - they need to know how the aspect they are being exposed to affects the overall plan so they can contribute to it or mitigate failures.  They may need to learn to balance the education with production, but I wouldn't want employees that are just satisfied with pushing their buttons and clocking out on time.  Give me those hungry to learn and understand any day because once they do they prove invaluable.

Same at QB.  I can't imagine a QB that doesn't need to know as much as possible about what he's doing - I imagine it looks like Jay Cutler just going through the motions.  If a play is designed to isolate a poor coverage safety on a TE, you don't want your QB bailing on that read or checking down at the first sign of trouble.  If the play call is supposed to hit a certain gap but the defense aligns into a counter, you have to understand that play won't work and audible to something else.

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43 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

I suppose that depends on the nature of the employee base, but I've found just the opposite in tech.  "why" guys are big picture people - they need to know how the aspect they are being exposed to affects the overall plan so they can contribute to it or mitigate failures.  They may need to learn to balance the education with production, but I wouldn't want employees that are just satisfied with pushing their buttons and clocking out on time.  Give me those hungry to learn and understand any day because once they do they prove invaluable.

Same at QB.  I can't imagine a QB that doesn't need to know as much as possible about what he's doing - I imagine it looks like Jay Cutler just going through the motions.  If a play is designed to isolate a poor coverage safety on a TE, you don't want your QB bailing on that read or checking down at the first sign of trouble.  If the play call is supposed to hit a certain gap but the defense aligns into a counter, you have to understand that play won't work and audible to something else.

I agree to a certain extent. But I also find that usually the people who “brag” about being “why” guys are also the ones who are just slow to pick things up that’s their crutch. 

I’m fine with people asking questions. But they better be contributing and coming up with some ideas too.

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I'm guessing this time next year Rosen is not on my roster. I just see a scenario where hes traded again or Miami drafts a qb

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I'm guessing this time next year Rosen is not on my roster. I just see a scenario where hes traded again or Miami drafts a qb

I’m guessing he’s not going to be on very many rosters at all next year. People will start giving up around week 8 or 9 this year.

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Sounds to me like Josh Rosen is an awesome buy low candidate right now.  

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12 minutes ago, ChuckLiddell said:

Sounds to me like Josh Rosen is an awesome buy low candidate right now.  

I'd probably sell, but at this point the price anyone would pay wouldnt be worth it. I'll hold and hold out hope. Once we see him actually play I think we will have a better idea of who he is 

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On 5/24/2019 at 5:52 PM, jtd13 said:

I got offered pick 19 for Rosen in a 1qb league. I'm intending to accept it if I get Murray at 11. The only reason I haven't accepted now is that it will reduce my chances of getting Murray, because it'll be more obvious I'm after him and I know the 2 picks behind me are both eying him.

That trade sounds like a no brainer

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On 5/24/2019 at 10:12 PM, JetMaxx said:

Been managing employees for 30 years, “why” guys don’t last long unless they bring much more to the table. Which is usually not the case.

 

Huh.  I earned my way into management and have been there for 2 decades.  I like the “why” guys.  Those guys want to know about how it works, not just doing it because it’s what they are told to do.  The greatest hinderance in increased productivity that I’ve experienced is the guys further up the ladder who respond to the “why” guys with “because we’ve never done it another way before”.  They reject alternatives and stifle creativity for no other reason than it’s outside their comfort zone.

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3 hours ago, Skeletore Eh said:

That trade sounds like a no brainer

It isn't. No one is available at 19 in this draft that makes it worthwhile to lessen my chances of getting Murray at 11, IMO. If the guy backs out after I pick at 11, I don't think I missed out on much. 

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3 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Huh.  I earned my way into management and have been there for 2 decades.  I like the “why” guys.  Those guys want to know about how it works, not just doing it because it’s what they are told to do.  The greatest hinderance in increased productivity that I’ve experienced is the guys further up the ladder who respond to the “why” guys with “because we’ve never done it another way before”.  They reject alternatives and stifle creativity for no other reason than it’s outside their comfort zone.

Thus the “unless they bring more to the table” caveat. Why guys that are assets are a rare breed, whereas why guys that are self absorbed jerks that just want to stir the pot are a dime a dozen.

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3 minutes ago, JetMaxx said:

Thus the “unless they bring more to the table” caveat. Why guys that are assets are a rare breed, whereas why guys that are self absorbed jerks that just want to stir the pot are a dime a dozen.

 

We must work in very different fields.  Some of the guys who are real hindrances in my work are those who don’t ask questions but instead just go along to get along.  One of the first things I teach my young engineers, drafters, and field people is that no one is born with the required knowledge and the only dumb questions are the ones you don’t ask.  Not being safe and not questioning are really the two things from my people that really get my hackles up.

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3 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

We must work in very different fields.  Some of the guys who are real hindrances in my work are those who don’t ask questions but instead just go along to get along.  One of the first things I teach my young engineers, drafters, and field people is that no one is born with the required knowledge and the only dumb questions are the ones you don’t ask.  Not being safe and not questioning are really the two things from my people that really get my hackles up.

But at some point you expect people to know things. I’m fine with questions, but you better perform and not just be the “why guy.”

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1 minute ago, kutta said:

But at some point you expect people to know things. I’m fine with questions, but you better perform and not just be the “why guy.”

 

Huh.  I rely on and encourage feedback from my people.  I don’t ever want a person working for me who is uncomfortable questioning.  The times I dealing with those you are describing are the we’ve-never-done-it-that-way-before people.  They learn to get up to speed pretty quickly, but they seem to be the exception.

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9 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Huh.  I rely on and encourage feedback from my people.  I don’t ever want a person working for me who is uncomfortable questioning.  The times I dealing with those you are describing are the we’ve-never-done-it-that-way-before people.  They learn to get up to speed pretty quickly, but they seem to be the exception.

I guess we have different experiences. There’s a fine line between asking for the sake of asking and figuring stuff out for yourself.

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48 minutes ago, kutta said:

I guess we have different experiences. There’s a fine line between asking for the sake of asking and figuring stuff out for yourself.

:goodposting:The fine line thing is exactly what I thought.

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5 hours ago, jtd13 said:

It isn't. No one is available at 19 in this draft that makes it worthwhile to lessen my chances of getting Murray at 11, IMO. If the guy backs out after I pick at 11, I don't think I missed out on much. 

Why not make the trade now and use the extra capital to move up and get Murray ?

I would put the chances of him falling to 1.11 at less than 50%.

If you identify a guy you really want you go and get him.

 

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The Miami Herald reports Ryan Fitzpatrick has consistently outplayed Josh Rosen in practice thus far.

That's per reporter Barry Jackson, who also notes that it is Fitzpatrick who continues to receive the first first-team reps. Jackson does not report that Rosen has played poorly, just that Fitzpatrick has been better. There is no guarantee the Dolphins force Rosen under center for Week 1, but regardless of how Fitzpatrick plays, Rosen is going to make a number of 2019 starts.

RELATED: 

Ryan Fitzpatrick

SOURCE: Miami Herald

Jun 4, 2019, 4:08 PM ET

 

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:popcorn: 

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Dolphins coach Brian Flores said Ryan Fitzpatrick is leading the quarterback competition.

As The Athletic's Chris Perkins put it, the coach was just "confirming what everyone has seen" so far in camp. There is still time for Josh Rosen to turn things around, but he has reportedly struggled so far in his Dolphins tenure. The most likely outcome is both Fitzpatrick and Rosen making starts this season.

SOURCE: Chris Perkins on Twitter

Jul 30, 2019, 10:06 AM ET

 

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We all know Fitz will have 12 picks by October and get benched. Not sure Rosen is worth anything but holding where I drafted him.

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:popcorn:

 

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meh. still so much time here for him. the story is far from over here. 

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It was expected that Fitzpatrick would be leading this race at this point.  He is a savvy veteran.  However, Fitzpatrick is also a known commodity.  He is a journeyman who can win you games and even generate short-term excitement, but he is not a franchise signal caller.  Rosen, on the other hand, is the hope of the franchise.  Having Fitzpatrick allows the team the luxury of bringing Rosen along slowly, but it is merely a matter of when, not if, Rosen becomes the starter, and that date is not too far in the future.  The Dolphins will extend a short leash to Fitzpatrick, yet a long leash once Rosen is installed as the starter.  

However, the lack of exciting playmakers in Miami is a serious concern.  The cupboard is bare in Miami.  This offense is not going to strike fear into opponents.

I believe Rosen is a talented young QB,  but unless and until the Dolphins surround him with some talented playmakers, it is hard to get too excited about Rosen's dynasty future.  This may be a dynasty buy-low opportunity, but the Dolphins picked him up at a bargain, so they aren't exactly heavily invested, and while I expect Rosen to be on the field sooner rather than later, it is difficult to imagine him having great success with the supporting cast he is being provided.  I just hope Rosen's confidence is not shattered before he gets a legitimate opportunity to showcase his abilities.  

I am buying rock-bottom low with cautious optimism in dynasty, but I have low expectations for short-term success.  

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6 hours ago, socrates said:

I am buying rock-bottom low with cautious optimism in dynasty, but I have low expectations for short-term success.  

While I get that he likely is a "buy low" candidate - what really is his upside?

Like you said this season will most likely be a lost season sitting behind Fitz for a while and then with the Dolphins depleted o-line and lack of weapons if he does see the field what can we expect from a young QB? Then what? It's quite possible the Dolphins earn a top 3 draft slot and take one of the draft eligible QBs teams are salivating over right now. Then what? Rosen gets shipped to yet another new team and starts over again or he stays in Miami and has to battle with what's likely a superior talent at QB?

Even if things work out in Miami, does he even have QB1 upside? - I think he's probably a fantasy backup at best with all the good young QBs in the league right now.

Honestly, I'm not sure he's even worth taking up a roster spot let alone the dart throw pick it would cost to acquire him. If you own him I suppose you have to hold and hope but personally I'd probably be fine selling low and hoping to get lucky. I see some random 3rd round rookie pick having more potential upside than Rosen.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:

While I get that he likely is a "buy low" candidate - what really is his upside?

Like you said this season will most likely be a lost season sitting behind Fitz for a while and then with the Dolphins depleted o-line and lack of weapons if he does see the field what can we expect from a young QB? Then what? It's quite possible the Dolphins earn a top 3 draft slot and take one of the draft eligible QBs teams are salivating over right now. Then what? Rosen gets shipped to yet another new team and starts over again or he stays in Miami and has to battle with what's likely a superior talent at QB?

Even if things work out in Miami, does he even have QB1 upside? - I think he's probably a fantasy backup at best with all the good young QBs in the league right now.

Honestly, I'm not sure he's even worth taking up a roster spot let alone the dart throw pick it would cost to acquire him. If you own him I suppose you have to hold and hope but personally I'd probably be fine selling low and hoping to get lucky. I see some random 3rd round rookie pick having more potential upside than Rosen.

I would not fault anyone for cutting your losses and moving on from Rosen.  His future looks rather bleak at the moment.  He will almost certainly be taking up valuable roster space with no immediate returns in the foreseeable future.  I agree that Miami is a black hole for Rosen.  The team is bereft of dynamic playmakers.  However, I do think Rosen has QB1 upside, and if you have a deep dynasty bench, as an essentially free asset, he may be worth a buy and hold.  Think of this season as a job interview season for Josh Rosen.  More than the numbers he amasses, I will be looking for signs that Rosen has the ability to command a team.  I believe the arm talent is there.  

The best thing for Rosen's career may be for him to move to a third team in three years, and I worry how that affects him, but in the right situation, I believe Rosen can be successful.  It is a shame his path in the NFL has gone this way, but it may be early to write him off.

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According to Adam Beasley of the Miami Herald, Josh Rosen "might just be the Dolphins' QB1" when the team returns to practice on Monday.

Rosen shined during Saturday's intra-squad scrimmage, making what Beasley deemed as "remarkable throws," while Fitzpatrick fared poorly, committing two interceptions while nearly throwing a third on an errant pass he forced into double coverage. Fitzpatrick has held the lead in Miami's quarterback competition all offseason, but Saturday's tour de force performance by Rosen may have turned the tide. "He’s made some improvement really across the board," gushed first-year head coach Brian Flores. "Better footwork, better mechanics in the pocket, better decision-making." Rosen tanked as a rookie last year but never had much chance to succeed with a weak supporting cast and poor coaching in Arizona. The change of scenery this offseason seems to have done him some good.

RELATED: 

Ryan Fitzpatrick

SOURCE: Miami Herald

Aug 4, 2019, 10:19 AM ET

 

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Josh Rosen completed 13-of-20 passes for 191 yards, zero touchdowns and an interception in the Dolphins' preseason opener against the Falcons.

Operating behind the Dolphins' hysterically-bad second-team offensive line, Rosen got off to a shaky start, taking a lot of hits and tossing an awful pick. He then managed to settle in, playing some pitch and catch with hyped UDFA Preston Williams. Some of his completions did fall into the "lucky" category. The second-year pro looked like a player who might benefit from some time with actual starting linemen.

Aug 9, 2019, 12:03 AM ET

 

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Rosen owners should hope for a couple good preseason games so they can dump him. This train is going nowhere fast.

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12 minutes ago, kutta said:

Rosen owners should hope for a couple good preseason games so they can dump him. This train is going nowhere fast.

Not saying Rosen will be an All-Pro, but at some point it would be nice to see him operate behind an NFL offensive line. He hasn't yet had that opportunity. 

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1 hour ago, kutta said:

Rosen owners should hope for a couple good preseason games so they can dump him. This train is going nowhere fast.

I don't know how you can make that observation when he played in the worst offense in the NFL last season and one preseason game behind the backups of one of the worst offensive lines in the game.

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16 minutes ago, wgoldsph said:

I don't know how you can make that observation when he played in the worst offense in the NFL last season and one preseason game behind the backups of one of the worst offensive lines in the game.

I saw every snap of every cardinals game last year. Yes, the entire team was a disaster. But he showed zero spark and zero leadership ability. The Cards did 100 percent the right thing moving on from him. Miami will move on at some point soon too.

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1 hour ago, kutta said:

I saw every snap of every cardinals game last year. Yes, the entire team was a disaster. But he showed zero spark and zero leadership ability. The Cards did 100 percent the right thing moving on from him. Miami will move on at some point soon too.

Ya, AZ knows their O-line is terrible and got a more mobile QB that can run for his life 😎

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2 hours ago, kutta said:

I saw every snap of every cardinals game last year. Yes, the entire team was a disaster. But he showed zero spark and zero leadership ability. The Cards did 100 percent the right thing moving on from him. Miami will move on at some point soon too.

Same was said about Jared Goff after a season.  Sometimes it takes time, and often it takes an NFL-caliber cast, and/or a real NFL coaching staff around you.  He may not have either of those things in Miami, but it still seems too early to pass this kind of judgement.

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1 hour ago, ChuckLiddell said:

Same was said about Jared Goff after a season.  Sometimes it takes time, and often it takes an NFL-caliber cast, and/or a real NFL coaching staff around you.  He may not have either of those things in Miami, but it still seems too early to pass this kind of judgement.

Goff has wonderboy McVay while Rosen has Clyde Christiansen (I think) to mentor him. I'm not sure the same growth should be expected. I'm a Rosen defender to an extent because I'd like to see what he could do with a fair shake. I'm not sure there is much to be learned playing on that Cards team last year. He's onto yet another OC and makeshift o-line. There just aren't high expectations for Miami this year across the board. He just needs to show that he can actually be a starting QB in the league.

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2 hours ago, ChuckLiddell said:

Same was said about Jared Goff after a season.  Sometimes it takes time, and often it takes an NFL-caliber cast, and/or a real NFL coaching staff around you.  He may not have either of those things in Miami, but it still seems too early to pass this kind of judgement.

People seem to be brushing aside the possibility that Rosen was a big part of the problem in AZ last year. 

I get that everyone around him sucked. I’m just saying I never saw a spark or a sign that he could lead the team and rise above. We’ll see soon enough.

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