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Evangelical support of Trump

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Trump was the final nail in Christianity in this country.

It is like that Seinfield episode.  A whole generation realized their parents were Lloyd Braun selling computers.

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6 hours ago, Daywalker said:

Trump was the final nail in Christianity in this country.

It is like that Seinfield episode.  A whole generation realized their parents were Lloyd Braun selling computers.

This can’t be overstated. I simply can’t support a church where I would think the vast majority of members (around here) openly support a person and party so polar opposite to anything Christ taught. I get butterflies and even feel a little sick when driving by our church.

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48 minutes ago, Jobber said:

This can’t be overstated. I simply can’t support a church where I would think the vast majority of members (around here) openly support a person and party so polar opposite to anything Christ taught. I get butterflies and even feel a little sick when driving by our church.

What is your denomination?

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35 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

What is your denomination?

Grew up Catholic, currently Lutheran.

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1 hour ago, Jobber said:

This can’t be overstated. I simply can’t support a church where I would think the vast majority of members (around here) openly support a person and party so polar opposite to anything Christ taught. I get butterflies and even feel a little sick when driving by our church.

It's as if Satan himself said he was still going to be the horrible being he is but he will get rid of abortion and that's enough to win their vote.

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2 hours ago, Jobber said:

This can’t be overstated. I simply can’t support a church where I would think the vast majority of members (around here) openly support a person and party so polar opposite to anything Christ taught. I get butterflies and even feel a little sick when driving by our church.

I hear you and I understand. I would offer i don't think it can be overstated the difference between the demographics of a local church body and what it means to follow Christ or Christianity as a whole. There are tons of Christians and churches that have a congregation where Biden is the favorite if that matters. 

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2 hours ago, Jobber said:

This can’t be overstated. I simply can’t support a church where I would think the vast majority of members (around here) openly support a person and party so polar opposite to anything Christ taught. I get butterflies and even feel a little sick when driving by our church.

It was like when the Boy Scouts of America invited President Trump to speak at the annual Boy Scout Jamboree. I have a difficult time coming up with someone who is worse at exemplifying the values and principles of the organization. Oh and of course Trump’s address was ridiculously inappropriate and the organization had to issue an apology afterwards. Our President, ladies and gentlemen. 

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12 hours ago, beef said:

Catholic community in Wisconsin divided by priest’s video

Father James Altman of the St. James the Less church in La Crosse, condemning Democratic Party-supporting Catholics as imposters who are going to hell.

 

 

So choosing a devout catholic over a guy the Pope said this about means you go to hell?

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6 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I hear you and I understand. I would offer i don't think it can be overstated the difference between the demographics of a local church body and what it means to follow Christ or Christianity as a whole. There are tons of Christians and churches that have a congregation where Biden is the favorite if that matters. 

I agree with this.  I also know I’ve stopped going to our local church because I feel it’s full of hypocrites that I have no interest in associating with.  

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15 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I agree with this.  I also know I’ve stopped going to our local church because I feel it’s full of hypocrites that I have no interest in associating with.  

Two quick thoughts.

1. Definitely find a body where you feel comfortable.

2. Recognizing a bit of all the ways I'm hypocritical has given me a little more grace to others on this. 

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8 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I thought this was an interesting article. From the popular Christian site Relevant.

What Is The Christian Posture For The Upcoming Election?

 

Thanks for sharing Joe. I was really looking forward to what this article had to say when I clicked the link. I got to the end which finished with this paragraph, and I'll be honest, I have no idea what it's saying. 

"Given its bodily nature, Christ’s ascension affirms the rugged and earthy aspects of our mission. We can and must get our hands dirty for the kingdom. But Christ has also transcended the earthly realm and has ascended his throne, and this grants us the eternal perspective on our earthly existence. This eternal perspective in turn grants us an indefatigable ability to both inhabit and transcend our circumstances, no matter how dire, because it is rooted in the reality of Christ’s kingship."

As a Christian, this sort of writing and speaking drives me nuts. Uses a lot of Christian-ese but doesn't clearly articulate the point to somebody who doesn't use that language. I still don't know what this is saying about how we view this election, other than maybe don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ. 

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12 minutes ago, FBG26 said:

Thanks for sharing Joe. I was really looking forward to what this article had to say when I clicked the link. I got to the end which finished with this paragraph, and I'll be honest, I have no idea what it's saying. 

"Given its bodily nature, Christ’s ascension affirms the rugged and earthy aspects of our mission. We can and must get our hands dirty for the kingdom. But Christ has also transcended the earthly realm and has ascended his throne, and this grants us the eternal perspective on our earthly existence. This eternal perspective in turn grants us an indefatigable ability to both inhabit and transcend our circumstances, no matter how dire, because it is rooted in the reality of Christ’s kingship."

As a Christian, this sort of writing and speaking drives me nuts. Uses a lot of Christian-ese but doesn't clearly articulate the point to somebody who doesn't use that language. I still don't know what this is saying about how we view this election, other than maybe don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ. 

Seems like it translates to "Christians must endure a lot of crap on earth but it's worth it."

(No idea what that has to do with the election, though. It sounds like boilerplate sermon stuff.)

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20 minutes ago, FBG26 said:

Thanks for sharing Joe. I was really looking forward to what this article had to say when I clicked the link. I got to the end which finished with this paragraph, and I'll be honest, I have no idea what it's saying. 

"Given its bodily nature, Christ’s ascension affirms the rugged and earthy aspects of our mission. We can and must get our hands dirty for the kingdom. But Christ has also transcended the earthly realm and has ascended his throne, and this grants us the eternal perspective on our earthly existence. This eternal perspective in turn grants us an indefatigable ability to both inhabit and transcend our circumstances, no matter how dire, because it is rooted in the reality of Christ’s kingship."

As a Christian, this sort of writing and speaking drives me nuts. Uses a lot of Christian-ese but doesn't clearly articulate the point to somebody who doesn't use that language. I still don't know what this is saying about how we view this election, other than maybe don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ. 

Thanks @FBG26

It may not be a great answer, or one I want to hear, but it doesn't drive me nuts at all. You said you had no idea what it's saying but I think you got it clearly: "Don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ."

 

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On 9/27/2020 at 9:43 PM, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks @FBG26

It may not be a great answer, or one I want to hear, but it doesn't drive me nuts at all. You said you had no idea what it's saying but I think you got it clearly: "Don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ."

 

My takeaway of the article went a little further than this.  I'd summarize it as, "don't sweat all the crap that's going on because you've got heaven to look forward to."  I've got a problem with this view on a couple different levels.  One, and a more general take on religion, but believers aren't as invested in our current world because they're taught that it's the afterlife that really matters.  It's akin to an NFL team who has their playoff seed locked in on Week 16 and isn't going to go full throttle Week 17 to rest up for the playoffs.  I saw this in action the other day when a man at a Trump rally was asked if he was scared of getting sick.  "Hell no.  If I die, I die.  I've got heaven to look forward to anyway."

Secondly, it seems to remove any responsibility the believing voter has of our current circumstance.  In other words, vote your conscience and if things turn into a huge mess (like I feel they have because Christians backed Trump), well that wasn't your fault.  

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Of course he does. He's a conman who appreciates other cons. (not saying they are all cons - but like the guy needing $50mm for a private jet)

Having said that, if you are an evangelical, I'm not sure you care. If he's nominating Amy Coney Barrett and otherwise doing your bidding, do you care if he thinks you are a joke?

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14 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

My takeaway of the article went a little further than this.  I'd summarize it as, "don't sweat all the crap that's going on because you've got heaven to look forward to."  I've got a problem with this view on a couple different levels.  One, and a more general take on religion, but believers aren't as invested in our current world because they're taught that it's the afterlife that really matters.  It's akin to an NFL team who has their playoff seed locked in on Week 16 and isn't going to go full throttle Week 17 to rest up for the playoffs.  I saw this in action the other day when a man at a Trump rally was asked if he was scared of getting sick.  "Hell no.  If I die, I die.  I've got heaven to look forward to anyway."

Secondly, it seems to remove any responsibility the believing voter has of our current circumstance.  In other words, vote your conscience and if things turn into a huge mess (like I feel they have because Christians backed Trump), well that wasn't your fault.  

Thanks. That's not my takeaway. More important (to me at least ;) ) that's not at all how I think we as Christians should see it. I don't see believing in something after as any reason not to be excellent here. In fact, I think it's pretty easy to talk about God's will for us in good stewardship of what we've been given here. 

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4 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. That's not my takeaway. More important (to me at least ;) ) that's not at all how I think we as Christians should see it. I don't see believing in something after as any reason not to be excellent here. In fact, I think it's pretty easy to talk about God's will for us in good stewardship of what we've been given here. 

Thanks for the response.  I reread it (dude uses some big words) and have the more general takeaway that Christians should stay engaged but not totally immersed in politics since the real prize is Jesus' kingdom.  I still believe, from a psychological standpoint, it puts the believer in a different mindset for how to interact with the world compared to those of us who don't believe.  We have to make the best of this world because it's all we've got.  There's no kingdom to focus our attention on, so this world is naturally more important, relatively speaking. 

Back to the message from the article, though.  What do you feel the article is suggesting Christians do from a practical standpoint?  Should you be championing candidates who best represent Jesus' teachings?  

Edited by Captain Cranks

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1 hour ago, Captain Cranks said:

 

Back to the message from the article, though.  What do you feel the article is suggesting Christians do from a practical standpoint?  Should you be championing candidates who best represent Jesus' teachings?  

Thanks. For me, I do find myself leaning towards hoping we as a country live in a way I think is best. Which means following Jesus' teachings. I also try to be mindful though on balancing out the obvious reality that lots of people don't agree with my opinion of Jesus. And this is a country. Not a church. The original followers of Jesus lived in a time when the government was entirely hostile to them. Christianity in places like China seem to be flourishing. So it's interesting. 

But I think there are lots of things where His teaching line up with lots of people. Caring for the poor for instance. Something Jesus talked about a LOT. 

That gets into a whole different discussion about how I marvel at how the Republican party was able to get so many Christian on their side by mostly doing not a lot more than welcoming them. 

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12 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

But I think there are lots of things where His teaching line up with lots of people. Caring for the poor for instance. Something Jesus talked about a LOT. 

Reading this, another thought. The big issue here I think is distinguishing between how we live compared to how we'd like the government to operate. 

In other words, I think it's easy to fall into the thinking of "I want the government to do these things that line up with Jesus' teaching". Instead of "I need to do these things that line up with Jesus' teaching". It gets complicated. 

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13 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Reading this, another thought. The big issue here I think is distinguishing between how we live compared to how we'd like the government to operate. 

In other words, I think it's easy to fall into the thinking of "I want the government to do these things that line up with Jesus' teaching". Instead of "I need to do these things that line up with Jesus' teaching". It gets complicated. 

Yeah, to stereotype a bit, Christians are supposed to want to help the poor and are also supposed to want to prevent abortions.

I think it's a little funny when they are criticized for wanting to handle the first one through private action (e.g., charity) more than through government action, and are also criticized for wanting the government to be involved on the second one instead of leaving it strictly to private choice.

If I were a Christian facing both criticisms, I'd want my critics to make up their minds. Do they want me to bring my religion into the voting booth with me or not?

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8 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Yeah, to stereotype a bit, Christians are supposed to want to help the poor and are also supposed to want to prevent abortions.

I think it's a little funny when they are criticized for wanting to handle the first one through private action (e.g., charity) more than through government action, and are also criticized for wanting the government to be involved on the second one instead of leaving it strictly to private choice.

If I were a Christian facing both criticisms, I'd want my critics to make up their minds. Do they want me to bring my religion into the voting booth with me or not?

This may be semantics but I think Christians are commanded to help the poor and to not murder/kill.  They are not commanded to make others help the poor or to make others not have abortions.  I could do both of those things (help the poor and not have an abortion - a very easy one as I'm not a woman) with no government interaction at all.

Anyway - to your actual point - I have no issue with anybody voting based on their faith/religion.  Everyone can choose what is important to them when deciding who to vote for.  What I personally have issue with is politicians and judges legislating their morality though laws and judgements.

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19 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

What I personally have issue with is politicians and judges legislating their morality though laws and judgements.

Isn't that what politicians do, make laws?

Isn't that what judges do, make judgements?

 

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Morality - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

So to ask a person to set aside their moral code is a bit absurd isn't it?  I mean if the constitution as it is written clearly says pursue this path - then that would override any personal moral inclinations.  However you have to use some basis for right v wrong and your moral code seems lie as good a place as any to start. 

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19 minutes ago, Mr. Know-It-All said:

Morality - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

So to ask a person to set aside their moral code is a bit absurd isn't it?  I mean if the constitution as it is written clearly says pursue this path - then that would override any personal moral inclinations.  However you have to use some basis for right v wrong and your moral code seems lie as good a place as any to start. 

If, for example, a person's moral code dictates that it's wrong for people of different races to interbreed, then, No, I don't think it's absurd to expect that person to set aside the code when legislating.

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On 9/30/2020 at 7:05 PM, quick-hands said:

 

Isn't that what judges do, make judgements?

 

Yes, but without the "e." 

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22 minutes ago, quick-hands said:
59 minutes ago, Zow said:

Yes, but without the "e." 

?

He's just giving you a hard time about a spelling error. It's "judgment” (no e between g and m). 

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1 hour ago, FBG26 said:

He's just giving you a hard time about a spelling error. It's "judgment” (no e between g and m). 

Spelling  corrections  should be a month off

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26 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

Spelling  corrections  should be a month off

Normally I’d agree with you.

This one is a pet peeve in the legal profession. I’ve actually had a judge tell me he makes “judgments” and not judgements.”  
 

Nothing vindictive intended. 

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8 minutes ago, Zow said:

Normally I’d agree with you.

This one is a pet peeve in the legal profession. I’ve actually had a judge tell me he makes “judgments” and not judgements.”  
 

Nothing vindictive intended

I’ll be the judg of that.

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11 hours ago, Zow said:

Normally I’d agree with you.

This one is a pet peeve in the legal profession. I’ve actually had a judge tell me he makes “judgments” and not judgements.”  
 

Nothing vindictive intended. 

I once had a judge tell opposing counsel in a case that he tended to question any legal argument made by someone who didn't know how to spell "judgment".

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8 hours ago, apalmer said:

I once had a judge tell opposing counsel in a case that he tended to question any legal argument made by someone who didn't know how to spell "judgment".

Yeah such a strange pet peeve when one considers that "judgement" is an accepted alternate spelling. Nonetheless, I have acquiesced to the profession. Now I'm focused moreso on the single versus double-space after a sentence dilemma. 

Of course, I say this as someone who spelled "doctorate" as "doctorette" halfway through the time I was obtaining one and pronounced "appellate brief" as "[apple-ette] brief" throughout the duration of writing one so...

Edited by Zow

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I thought the lawyers had their own thread?

😉

On 9/29/2020 at 1:18 PM, Captain Cranks said:
On 9/27/2020 at 9:43 PM, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks @FBG26

It may not be a great answer, or one I want to hear, but it doesn't drive me nuts at all. You said you had no idea what it's saying but I think you got it clearly: "Don't worry about the election too much and instead focus on  teaching others about Christ."

 

My takeaway of the article went a little further than this.  I'd summarize it as, "don't sweat all the crap that's going on because you've got heaven to look forward to."  I've got a problem with this view on a couple different levels.  One, and a more general take on religion, but believers aren't as invested in our current world because they're taught that it's the afterlife that really matters.  It's akin to an NFL team who has their playoff seed locked in on Week 16 and isn't going to go full throttle Week 17 to rest up for the playoffs.  I saw this in action the other day when a man at a Trump rally was asked if he was scared of getting sick.  "Hell no.  If I die, I die.  I've got heaven to look forward to anyway."

Secondly, it seems to remove any responsibility the believing voter has of our current circumstance.  In other words, vote your conscience and if things turn into a huge mess (like I feel they have because Christians backed Trump), well that wasn't your fault.  

Quite a contrast here. I think most churches I’ve regularly attended in the 43 years I’ve been a Christ follower ascribe to the former school of thought Joe B summarized: “Seek he first the kingdom, and all these things will he added unto you.” That’s good as far as perspective; sometimes when I’m in a conflict I’ll ask myself “is this gonna matter in 10,000 years?”

But its not pragmatic about what our role as believers should be in the meantime. We’re in that awkward place sometimes called “the now and the not yet.”

The challenge for Christians is how to engage the culture without losing the gospel. By that I don’t mean “follow the teachings of Christ”, which is a meaningless platitude as bad as Christianese terminology that resonates with no one outside the church. Everyone needs the gospel, including (especially) Christians.

God doesn’t save us and then magically transport us out of this world. Would be far easier if He did, right? To not have to struggle, to not experience pain and hurt feelings. But the point of the gospel is not merely fire insurance. We are to make the world a better place by redeeming the culture. We are the light of the world, we are the salt of the earth. You don’t put a light under a basket. Salt that loses its flavor should be thrown out.

Believers absolutely have a responsibility to engage and not stay in their subculture bubble. When faced with two bad choices, always choose the lesser evil.

Jesus said we will have trouble in this world. That is a promise nobody puts on a coffee cup. But His next sentence tells us “don’t be afraid, for I have overcome the world”

While we are in this world, we must strive to be Good Samaritan in our everyday lives. To everyone, not just the people we like or think the way we do.

There’s a tension there, always. The now and the not yet. In the world, but not of the world. But it’s like so any worthwhile in life: it’s not a series of rules or procedures, it is relational. It’s not Harry Potter, there are no magic words or formulas. That’s religion, and frankly, religion stinks. Never helped anyone.

God is relational. He gets us and understands us better than we know ourselves. He is a good Father who cares for you.

what is gospel? Good Q.

Jesus was God incarnate. He was crucified, buried, and rose again. He was put to death for our sins, and by the power of His resurrection, overcame death and the grave. There is a redemptive theme from Genesis to Revelation: Christ is the true temple, the Lamb of God, the high priest, prophet, king. He is the greater son of Abraham, the greater David who overcame the biggest Goliath ever (sin and death.)

God made a way. The story of Israel in the OT is all of us.

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19 hours ago, quick-hands said:

Spelling  corrections  should be a month off

Incorrect punctuation.

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On 9/27/2020 at 8:58 AM, Jobber said:

Grew up Catholic, currently Lutheran.

So you had 95 problems but a Biden ain't one. 

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30 minutes ago, Zow said:
On 9/27/2020 at 10:58 AM, Jobber said:

Grew up Catholic, currently Lutheran.

So you had 95 problems but a Biden ain't one.

:Golf clap:

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3 hours ago, Zow said:

Yeah such a strange pet peeve when one considers that "judgement" is an accepted alternate spelling. Nonetheless, I have acquiesced to the profession. Now I'm focused moreso on the single versus double-space after a sentence dilemma. 

Of course, I say this as a called who spelled "doctorate" as "doctorette" halfway through the time I was obtaining one and pronounced "appellate brief" as "[apple-ette] brief" throughout the duration of writing one so...

😂 After moving my practice from California to the South, I got shamed in front of a symposium of about 100 attendees by the moderator for pronouncing voir dire with its French pronunciation instead of the clearly more correct Southern variant “Vore Dyer” (with a healthy drawl).  The correction was prefaced with “Son, here in the South we do Vore Dyer.” The odd thing was this happened in New Orleans where I would have thought the French pronunciation would have been slightly less offensive.

Also, re the bolded, what’s your take on “moreso” versus “more so”?

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3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

😂 After moving my practice from California to the South, I got shamed in front of a symposium of about 100 attendees by the moderator for pronouncing voir dire with its French pronunciation instead of the clearly more correct Southern variant “Vore Dyer” (with a healthy drawl).  The correction was prefaced with “Son, here in the South we do Vore Dyer.” The odd thing was this happened in New Orleans where I would have thought the French pronunciation would have been slightly less offensive.

Also, re the bolded, what’s your take on “moreso” versus “more so”?

Moreso when there is a clear antecedent i think. But the distinction and use was never really drilled into me either way. I'm not even sure which one I use more. 

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1 minute ago, Zow said:

Moreso when there is a clear antecedent i think. But the distinction and use was never really drilled into me either way. I'm not even sure which one I use more. 

I was always taught that the use of “moreso” was incorrect and a bastardization of proper English (it is also recognized as a spelling error by spell check), even though it appears fairly commonly. But what do I know?  I’m a dinosaur who still uses two spaces after a period, despite pretty much everyone telling me I’m doing it wrong. 

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