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USA Shootings (10 Viewers)

Stealthycat said:
I'll link from everywhere because I read from ecverywhere

so now that so know the above story is true - anti-gun South Africa using military because of the massive violence using guns problems .... what say you?   hard gun laws should have equaled low gun violence right? 
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I don't think this is true.  I wouldn't think that is true no matter who posted it, but more times than not with you the link is from Fox.  

Honestly, I haven't read the story. 

 
Stealthycat said:
I'll link from everywhere because I read from ecverywhere

so now that so know the above story is true - anti-gun South Africa using military because of the massive violence using guns problems .... what say you?   hard gun laws should have equaled low gun violence right? 
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Is the gun violence lower than before they implemented the harder gun laws?  

Seems to me you are yet again trying to trot out that argument of "see, not all violence has stopped, so those gun laws don't work".  

Also buried in the story they were talking about the big disparity of the economic situation there too - forcing people to go the dangerous route of gangs.   I honestly don't know what your point is - I've never claimed that harder gun laws will stop all violence, or that we wouldn't also need to address other issues as well.  Harder guns laws wouldn't be the end all, be all - it's just one of the necessary pieces of the puzzle, IMO.  

ETA:  at the bottom of one of the articles:

Youth unemployment is over 50 per cent in many poorer parts of South Africa, which is the most unequal country in the world according to World Bank measurements.

 
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KarmaPolice said:
Now, what is your point about the South Africa story? 
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South Africa deploys army to the streets of crime-ridden townships after a surge of murders, shootings and gang violence

South Africa has pretty strict gun laws don't they ?

my point is .... the criminals don't pay attention to laws - and the law abiding unarmed citizens are suffering so badly that the military is having to be deployed. Crazy huh ?

 
Stealthycat said:
South Africa deploys army to the streets of crime-ridden townships after a surge of murders, shootings and gang violence

South Africa has pretty strict gun laws don't they ?

my point is .... the criminals don't pay attention to laws - and the law abiding unarmed citizens are suffering so badly that the military is having to be deployed. Crazy huh ?
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So my questions are:

1.  Did the laws not work?  Ie - are there more shootings now vs before stricter laws got put in place?

2.  Based on what I posted above about the big divide in the economy, how should that be factored into this example and determining how much stricter laws would help.  

This seems to be a different thing entirely to other examples we talk about like London and Australia.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
No I didn't cross reference it, because if I know it's a link to Fox I won't even bother clicking in the first place.  I try to not give their product views, clicks, and traffic.  
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Seems like a closed minded way to view things.  I make sure I watch CNN, Fox, and BBC.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
So my questions are:

1.  Did the laws not work?  Ie - are there more shootings now vs before stricter laws got put in place?

2.  Based on what I posted above about the big divide in the economy, how should that be factored into this example and determining how much stricter laws would help.  

This seems to be a different thing entirely to other examples we talk about like London and Australia.  
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Actual facts:   Their gun laws aren't all that strict (pretty much anyone over 21 can own 4 guns, and open carry is legal), and a significant number of the laws they did pass involving licensing and home inspections haven't been implemented or enforced for many years due to legal challenges.   

 
-fish- said:
Actual facts:   Their gun laws aren't all that strict (pretty much anyone over 21 can own 4 guns, and open carry is legal), and a significant number of the laws they did pass involving licensing and home inspections haven't been implemented or enforced for many years due to legal challenges.   
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Interesting info.  You have a link to an article - I wouldn't mind reading that.  I didn't see anything in the links provided or on a very brief search other than overview of what is happening.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Interesting info.  You have a link to an article - I wouldn't mind reading that.  I didn't see anything in the links provided or on a very brief search other than overview of what is happening.  
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Gun control laws resulted in decrease in gun crimes  (You'll note that although there was some disagreement about causation, they went back a year later and used cause-of-death statistics to show that gun deaths dropped more than other violent crimes).

From wikipedia:

Ownership of a firearm is conditional on a competency test and several other factors, including background checking of the applicant, inspection of an owner's premises, and licensing of the weapon by the police introduced in July 2004. The process is currently undergoing review,[1] as the police are at present, not able to adequately or within reasonable time, process either competency certification, new licences or renewal of existing licences. Minimum waiting period used to exceed 2 years from date of application.[2]
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 Plus a high court had ruled two portions of the act unconstitutional, so there was no enforcement while that ruling worked its way up.  The Constitutional Court overruled the high court in July, 2018, but dealers vowed not to cooperate with enforcement.

 Also, this summary of current legal challenges. 

Advocate David Unterhalter told the judge the police acknowledged that certain aspects of the legislation was problematic and dysfunctional. The police even agreed that the infrastructure regulating the gun laws was falling apart, the court was told.
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So, as is true in nearly every case, stricter gun laws (even though they really just require registration, limit the number of gun owns and limit ammunition to 200 rounds for handguns) resulted in a proven decrease in gun violence.   Lack of infrastructure and enforcement has contributed to the current problem.

 
Probably not the thread for this, but since there's been a few posts about it - do you guys actually think Fox is a legit news source that should be taken seriously?   Somebody choosing to not use them is in an echo chamber? 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Probably not the thread for this, but since there's been a few posts about it - do you guys actually think Fox is a legit news source that should be taken seriously?   Somebody choosing to not use them is in an echo chamber? 
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I think they won’t answer, but a lot of people do. It’s baffling, but then what isn’t these days.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Probably not the thread for this, but since there's been a few posts about it - do you guys actually think Fox is a legit news source that should be taken seriously?   Somebody choosing to not use them is in an echo chamber? 
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What is a legit news source any more?  Every time I look at any of them if just looks like a talk show. I can’t stand to watch any of them. 

 
Hawkeye21 said:
What is a legit news source any more?  Every time I look at any of them if just looks like a talk show. I can’t stand to watch any of them. 
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I think there are good ones online and there are a lot of good podcasts.  I dont watch anything on tv/cable at all.  

 
Glass Joe said:
I think they won’t answer, but a lot of people do. It’s baffling, but then what isn’t these days.
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Another example of the double standard. If was to post something like this, there would be no shortage of posters telling me not to put words in their mouth. 

I haven't watched Fox News in years. I've probably read a few links form Twitter or something online. I don't give any news source carte blanche. I look at other sources to find confirmation/opposition/additional details. All the while you need to understand the reason why the news outlet is even producing the information. If everyone is reporting the absolute truth, then there are too many mouths to feed. The only way they can all stay in business is by offering an opposing view at different times. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Probably not the thread for this, but since there's been a few posts about it - do you guys actually think Fox is a legit news source that should be taken seriously?   Somebody choosing to not use them is in an echo chamber? 
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Yeah, I think they are just a legit as any other news source.  They are slanted to a certain point of view but all news sources are these days.  If you simply refuse to watch opposing views then you are putting your self in the echo chamber someone else mentioned.  I think intelligent open minded people take in thoughts from multiple sources and makes there own conclusions.  

 
zDragon said:
Yeah, I think they are just a legit as any other news source.  They are slanted to a certain point of view but all news sources are these days.  If you simply refuse to watch opposing views then you are putting your self in the echo chamber someone else mentioned.  I think intelligent open minded people take in thoughts from multiple sources and makes there own conclusions.  
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Not using Fox <> refusing to listen to opposing viewpoints.  Let's not pretend that they have a monopoly on conservative views.  

And no, I dont believe all news sources are slanted, and certainly not to the degree that Fox is.    

 
Hawkeye21 said:
What is a legit news source any more?  Every time I look at any of them if just looks like a talk show. I can’t stand to watch any of them. 
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Al Jazeera, Reuters, BBC.  CBS rates pretty well for being unbiased.  

 
-fish- said:
Al Jazeera, Reuters, BBC.  CBS rates pretty well for being unbiased.  
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Listen to NPR. I think their interviewers do a good job of letting each side say their piece and reeling it in when they get off topic/attack/ramble talking points. They always have a rebuttal. 

 
-fish- said:
Al Jazeera, Reuters, BBC.  CBS rates pretty well for being unbiased.  
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Snorkelson said:
Listen to NPR. I think their interviewers do a good job of letting each side say their piece and reeling it in when they get off topic/attack/ramble talking points. They always have a rebuttal. 
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All good suggestions too.  This notion that you need to give CNN and Fox your time to get different sources and opinions is silly.  

THIS chart has been tossed around here a bit and is a good starting point to finding stuff at the top.  

They have CNN rating at not having too much of a lean, but their quality of news wasn't good.  Fox is listed as hyper-partisan and low quality.    I think the problem is that people are too used to sources like Fox that even something that slightly skews right will look like it has a left lean to them.  

There is about 20 sources listed in the green box - some skewing right, some skewing left but still providing good news.  Why not just use them?  

 
KarmaPolice said:
All good suggestions too.  This notion that you need to give CNN and Fox your time to get different sources and opinions is silly.  

THIS chart has been tossed around here a bit and is a good starting point to finding stuff at the top.  

They have CNN rating at not having too much of a lean, but their quality of news wasn't good.  Fox is listed as hyper-partisan and low quality.    I think the problem is that people are too used to sources like Fox that even something that slightly skews right will look like it has a left lean to them.  

There is about 20 sources listed in the green box - some skewing right, some skewing left but still providing good news.  Why not just use them?  
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Shouldn't there be a 2nd source to cross reference the media bias chart? 

Otherwise, you're only getting one source for media bias. 

 
There's been other links with similar results to those bias charts.  I know onwle was posted here or another thread.  

Nowhere have I seen Fox to be considered a credible news outlet (besides from them or the President?) 

 
KCitons said:
Shouldn't there be a 2nd source to cross reference the media bias chart? 

Otherwise, you're only getting one source for media bias. 
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You make a good point, but is there something you disagree with sticking out here? I think it’s pretty accurate. I understand that it’s all up to interpretation, but I also think this chart kind of tells it like it is. 

 
Snorkelson said:
You make a good point, but is there something you disagree with sticking out here? I think it’s pretty accurate. I understand that it’s all up to interpretation, but I also think this chart kind of tells it like it is. 
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Not really. I don't go to a single source to read the news. Usually it comes from twitter headline or google news. If the headline catches my attention, then I will read more from that source. If it seems improbable, I will google search to see what other outlets are reporting. (for, against, additional info). 

What I find is that most of the information is the same. It's when you get into the talking heads and "experts" on the tv channels that things start to swing. I would compare it to College Gameday on ESPN. The stats are stats. But, Kirk and Corso may disagree on who will win the game. (this is where I tend to just tune out)

 
timschochet said:
Every mass shooting incident I’ve ever seen begins with reports of more than one shooter. It usually turns out to be only one. Not always but almost all of the time. 
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Probably right on this one too.  The echos of rounds being fired in an intense situation will make a lot of people think it's multiple shooters.  

 
A witness, Julissa Contreras, told NBC Bay Area that she saw a white man in his early to mid-30s firing a rifle that was "able to shoot three to four shots a second."

"It was just rapid firing," she said. "I could see him shooting in just every direction. He wasn't aiming at anyone specifically. It was just left to right, right to left. ...
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Dammit. 

I’ve stopped in Gilroy a few times on my way to San Francisco. I’ve had the garlic ice cream. Always meant to go to the festival one day. 

So horrible. 

 
timschochet said:
Dammit. 

I’ve stopped in Gilroy a few times on my way to San Francisco. I’ve had the garlic ice cream. Always meant to go to the festival one day. 

So horrible. 
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A few years back my wife was responsible for the catering for 4 or 5 locations of a national restaurant chain. Gilroy was one of stores.  I went up there at few times.  Neat little area with a ton of produce stands and shops.

I went through there just a few months ago on our way to Santa Clara.

 
Local news interviewing a band that was playing when the shooting happened. Said there were "hundreds to a thousand people" in the immediate area of where he started shooting (right behind the crowd/next to a primary food area). Could be another very bad one. 

 
Local reporter says police source tells him one shooter was killed, another shooter is on the run: "2nd suspect at large. PD pursuing, he’s jumping fences and on the run."

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
A few years back my wife was responsible for the catering for 4 or 5 locations of a national restaurant chain. Gilroy was one of stores.  I went up there at few times.  Neat little area with a ton of produce stands and shops.

I went through there just a few months ago on our way to Santa Clara.
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Actually smells like garlic.

 
It's a huge event here. It's the garlic capital of the world. Hope no one I know got hurt.

 
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Update: from Regional Medical Center: 4 patients: 1 male patient is in critical condition and 3 female patients are in good condition and are expected to be treated and released. From kpix news.

 
Witness on MSNBC saying she believes there were two shooters, sounds like she did her year of service in the Israeli army and said one gun sounded like a single shot rifle and a second was much more rapid fire. Said the sounds were different and started quickly enough that she doesn't believe it could be a single person switching. 

 
3 dead plus the suspect, 15 injured. There may be another suspect though unknown. Suspect was killed in less than a minute. 

They check people coming into the festival but apparently this guy (or guys) went through a creek and then cut through a fence to get inside. 

 
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