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USA Shootings (5 Viewers)

KCitons said:
That's because you can't remove emotion from the conversation. 

But, you already took one jab at me. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. 
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Because it's an emotional topic.  I cried when Sandy Hook happened, and I'm on the opposite side of the country.  When it happened I thought of it happening at my own kids' school.  We used to do earthquake drills when I was a kid, and now my kids to active shooter drills.  It's sick.

 
KCitons said:
Guns never did anything wrong to me. If you believe that people shoot people, then banning people is the answer. 
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This is a rabbit hole I have no more interest in diving deeper.  In an effort to save my time, sanity and with the knowledge no opinions will be changed I call a truce. 

My original post was to just point out the hypocrisy of the statements.   It did.     

 
Dickies said:
Because it's an emotional topic.  I cried when Sandy Hook happened, and I'm on the opposite side of the country.  When it happened I thought of it happening at my own kids' school.  We used to do earthquake drills when I was a kid, and now my kids to active shooter drills.  It's sick.
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I'm not discrediting the emotions of the event. I'm questioning the reasoning behind emotional videos to further a political agenda. If the topic can't stand on it's own without emotion, then I question the validity of the discussion. 

I could give a poor analogy if that would help?

 
dkp993 said:
This is a rabbit hole I have no more interest in diving deeper.  In an effort to save my time, sanity and with the knowledge no opinions will be changed I call a truce. 

My original post was to just point out the hypocrisy of the statements.   It did.     
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Truce. 

But, my original response is still  :lmao:

 
KCitons said:
I'm not discrediting the emotions of the event. I'm questioning the reasoning behind emotional videos to further a political agenda. If the topic can't stand on it's own without emotion, then I question the validity of the discussion. 

I could give a poor analogy if that would help?
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This thread doesn't need more poor analogies.

 
KCitons said:
Can you clarify the bolded? 

If left to my own interpretation, I would agree with you that it's ####ed up because we treat every incident (an angry person storming off) as a reason to go into lock down. I suspect you think the solution to angry people is to ban weapons, or certain types of weapons.

Why do we assume every angry person in this world is a mass shooter? What stats back up that irrational thinking?
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You suspect my solution to angry people is to ban weapons? :mellow:

Not sure how much more I can clarify.  I am sure a large part is it's come to a CYA situation for these schools.   I don't think people assume that angry people are all mass shooters, but their protocol is to treat them like they are I guess.  I just thought the level of shutdown was a bit much, and like I said - along with the active shooter drills they have to do now (of course their's was today),  I am not sure what this is doing to the mental health of the kids in the school, but I would hazard a guess it's not a net positive.  

I would also hazard a guess that the school isn't nervous that the kid who left was going to get a baseball bat, poison, or his car.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
You suspect my solution to angry people is to ban weapons? :mellow:

Not sure how much more I can clarify.  I am sure a large part is it's come to a CYA situation for these schools.   I don't think people assume that angry people are all mass shooters, but their protocol is to treat them like they are I guess.  I just thought the level of shutdown was a bit much, and like I said - along with the active shooter drills they have to do now (of course their's was today),  I am not sure what this is doing to the mental health of the kids in the school, but I would hazard a guess it's not a net positive.  

I would also hazard a guess that the school isn't nervous that the kid who left was going to get a baseball bat, poison, or his car.  
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Then we are in agreement. 

I suspect that we will need to see a lawsuit from a parent that their child is suffering from PTSD due to the frequency of active shooter training events. Maybe the pendulum will swing back towards center. 

 
KCitons said:
I'm not discrediting the emotions of the event. I'm questioning the reasoning behind emotional videos to further a political agenda. If the topic can't stand on it's own without emotion, then I question the validity of the discussion. 
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How the hell do we discuss the protection of human life without emotion?  :confused:    In fact, though, there's emotion on both sides of the argument surrounding the right to bear "arms."  One side is emotional about their self-centered interest in near-unlimited gun ownership; the other side is emotional from an empathetic interest in taking steps to better protect human life. Arguing that emotion shouldn't be a part the discussion (any discussion, really), is another deflection.

 
tri-man 47 said:
How the hell do we discuss the protection of human life without emotion?  :confused:    In fact, though, there's emotion on both sides of the argument surrounding the right to bear "arms."  One side is emotional about their self-centered interest in near-unlimited gun ownership; the other side is emotional from an empathetic interest in taking steps to better protect human life. Arguing that emotion shouldn't be a part the discussion (any discussion, really), is another deflection.
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Not really. We know that emotion leads to irrational decision making. If a person was subjected to 24 hour media coverage of every mass shooting, and submerged in mass shooting training and lock downs, while also watching youtube videos showing that kids are more concerned with mass shooters than their first day of school, it's improbable that he/she is going to be able to have a rational conversation. Anger is an emotion. But, we've all had a conversation with an angry person. They don't make the best decisions. 

It's not another deflection. I've been saying for some time now, we may be doing more harm than the mass shooters are. Yes, 50 kids may die this year due to school shooters. Does that mean the other 50k (just guessing) need to be subjected to PTSD inducing training?

 
Dickies said:
Okay, but you're basically the only person talking about other forms of violence in the gun violence thread.  When it comes to "all forms of violence" guns are not the problem, but they are absolutely A problem.  
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they are not a problem at all - no more so a problem than any other weapon is

the people who are violent? now THERE is the problem

its like blaming cars for drunk drivers.... its really the drunk drivers isn't it ?

 
Stealthycat said:
because United States is the best country in the world where the people are free (less and less, but still free)

"weapons of war" ... what does that even mean ? guns have ALWAYS been in the United States .... like has been said, only in the last 25 years has this mass shooting thing really happened

and you think guns have changed? 

no - PEOPLE have changed, haven't they ?
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You always say how “free” America is.  I don’t know what you mean.  I have no idea how it is more “free” than any other western democracy?  Can you give me any examples?

 
timschochet said:
We disagree on semi-automatic weapons.
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tell me, in all the history of the US that semi-auto weapons have existed ... when have they become a problem ?

each year, millions of hunters use them in the field ... rarely an accident

each day, millions of American's have them .... and rarely an issue nor has it been for literally decades

now ... the exceptionally few violence people that use them to hurt other illegally .... THEY are a problem. The weapons? no .... 

 
zoonation said:
You always say how “free” America is.  I don’t know what you mean.  I have no idea how it is more “free” than any other western democracy?  Can you give me any examples?
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How many guns do we have in this country?

A long time ago, in this thread, I said that we arrived at this gun problem because of unbridled freedom. What other country would allow it's population to own as many guns as the U.S. has? And how many would stand by while mass shootings continue to rise. 

We are the land of the free. Unbridled freedom has peaked. We've moved beyond the point of positive gains and have started deteriorating. 

 
zoonation said:
You always say how “free” America is.  I don’t know what you mean.  I have no idea how it is more “free” than any other western democracy?  Can you give me any examples?
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why "western democracy" ?? 

the United State is very different than so many countries ... and our freedoms are a huge part of that. Speech, travel, Rights in general. You didn't know any of that ?

 
KCitons said:
How many guns do we have in this country?

A long time ago, in this thread, I said that we arrived at this gun problem because of unbridled freedom. What other country would allow it's population to own as many guns as the U.S. has? And how many would stand by while mass shootings continue to rise. 

We are the land of the free. Unbridled freedom has peaked. We've moved beyond the point of positive gains and have started deteriorating. 
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I find it odd that you equate the right to walk into a Kmart and by an AR15 with “freedom”.   

 
Stealthycat said:
400-500 million

and every day, almost all of them are used correctly

if guns were the problem, thousands would be killed daily right ?
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Most of those guns aren’t used at all on any given day.   It’s like you’re incapable of posting without lying.

 
Stealthycat said:
why "western democracy" ?? 

the United State is very different than so many countries ... and our freedoms are a huge part of that. Speech, travel, Rights in general. You didn't know any of that ?
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No. I know that.  

But there are 20+ other democracies that have all those same freedoms but do not believe that citizens should be packing while shopping at Costco.   

 
KCitons said:
How many guns do we have in this country?

A long time ago, in this thread, I said that we arrived at this gun problem because of unbridled freedom. What other country would allow it's population to own as many guns as the U.S. has? And how many would stand by while mass shootings continue to rise. 

We are the land of the free. Unbridled freedom has peaked. We've moved beyond the point of positive gains and have started deteriorating. 
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This is the reason I respond to you despite my frustration at times with some of your arguments. Because you express some intriguing ideas, and I like that you’re your own person, not simply shelling out stale propaganda. 

Your post here is very interesting. I have some thoughts on it which I will get to later. But in essence I agree with you about the unusual history in our society that got us to this point. 

 
So Trump is up to his usual nonsense: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1056026

He has the Justice Department circulating new background check proposals to Congress. But Trump won’t commit to any of them. If the Democrats accepts these, then Trump can refuse and attempt to make the Democrats look weak, just as he did during the failed Dream Act negotiations. If the Democrats refuse then Trump can blame them for no new background checks. Hopefully the Democrats won’t fall for this, but who knows? They’re permanent suckers, so...

 
timschochet said:
So Trump is up to his usual nonsense: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1056026

He has the Justice Department circulating new background check proposals to Congress. But Trump won’t commit to any of them. If the Democrats accepts these, then Trump can refuse and attempt to make the Democrats look weak, just as he did during the failed Dream Act negotiations. If the Democrats refuse then Trump can blame them for no new background checks. Hopefully the Democrats won’t fall for this, but who knows? They’re permanent suckers, so...
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lets say a law is passed that everyone has to submit to background checks, no person to person sales

do you think that's going to help anything? seriously 

 
Stealthycat said:
lets say a law is passed that everyone has to submit to background checks, no person to person sales

do you think that's going to help anything? seriously 
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The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives.[1] It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the perfect solution fallacy.

By creating a false dichotomy that presents one option which is obviously advantageous—while at the same time being completely implausible—a person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. Under this fallacy, the choice is not between real world solutions; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic achievable possibility and another unrealistic solution that could in some way be "better".

This fallacy is an example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes. It usually takes the following logical form:

Premise 1: X is what we have or is being proposed.

Premise 2: Y is the perfect situation, even though it may not be achievable.

Conclusion: Therefore, X should be rejected, even if it is the best available option.

Credit 

 
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Stealthycat said:
lets say a law is passed that everyone has to submit to background checks, no person to person sales

do you think that's going to help anything? seriously 
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Will it make large differences, maybe not. Will it make some difference, yes.

Why would you want to someone that is a convicted felon to have easy access to a firearm? 

 
36,383 average deaths per year by guns

22, 274 by suicide, 12,380 by homicide, 487 by unintentional deaths, 496 shootings by law enforcement and 295 undetermined

Somebody asked me this (I think it was a rhetorical question), but .....Let's ban vaping first????

 
Dickies said:
Can you list other countries that have the gun violence problem we have?
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I don't have to. I'm the one that's stating the unchecked freedom of this country (one of which is the Constitutional interpretation to own guns) is a leading cause of the problem you are seeing today. 

We have the freedom to burn the American flag. The freedom to organize hate groups. The freedom to create a religion that protects strange ideologies. Guns are just a part of it.

I've said that unbridled freedom is like leaving a 3 year old alone to decide what he wants to eat for breakfast. Odds are, he's going to evolve to the point where he's eating cake and candy. Then he will expand his decision process to the other meals. (after all, if one freedom of choice is good, more is better) It may seem okay at first, but over time he will destroy his own health by making poor choices. 

 
KCitons said:
Another one what?

This is why this place is called an echo chamber. You don't want to accept that there are people in this country (and this forum) that don't agree with your stance. You'd rather they not exist. 
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Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying.  

 
I might have to reassess my opinion of KCiton’s posts and whether or not it makes sense to respond to them. In the other thread on this subject he just wrote that the commercial by the Sandy Hook parents will cause kids to commit suicide, and that active shooter training might be more damaging than the active shooters themselves because of all the fear it causes. 

Yes he actually wrote that. I think for now I’m done responding to him. 

 
KCitons said:
We are at the point of the discussion where people are happy when 6 people are stabbed. 
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timschochet said:
I might have to reassess my opinion of KCiton’s posts and whether or not it makes sense to respond to them. In the other thread on this subject he just wrote that the commercial by the Sandy Hook parents will cause kids to commit suicide, and that active shooter training might be more damaging than the active shooters themselves because of all the fear it causes. 

Yes he actually wrote that. I think for now I’m done responding to him. 
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Don't forget jems like this where he is accusing people in here of being happy when other people die.  

 
timschochet said:
I might have to reassess my opinion of KCiton’s posts and whether or not it makes sense to respond to them. In the other thread on this subject he just wrote that the commercial by the Sandy Hook parents will cause kids to commit suicide, and that active shooter training might be more damaging than the active shooters themselves because of all the fear it causes. 

Yes he actually wrote that. I think for now I’m done responding to him. 
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:lmao:

Please link to the post where I said the commercial would cause kids to commit suicide?

I posted:

The bigger concern is that youth suicide rates are on the rise. Is that because of active shooters, or because of the training that induces fear?

You're mixing the two things up. I think the ad is for political reason

If you inundate kids with this type of ad and active shooter training, it may lead to increase in the suicide rate.
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I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm saying. The facts are the facts.

Teen suicide is on the rise. What's the cause?

It has been questioned by experts as to whether or not active shooter training is effective.

The odds of being involved in a mass school shooting are high. But, we expose every child to training. Some which has been labeled as traumatic. Why?

 
KarmaPolice said:
Don't forget jems like this where he is accusing people in here of being happy when other people die.  
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You forgot to include the post that I responded to. 

Context is important. 

Apple Jack said:
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/tallahassee-florida-stabbing/index.html

Six people injured, none dead as of now. How could that be?
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Smart ### post will get a smart ### response. 

If you read the rest of the conversation, you would understand that. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
I read the rest of the conversation, and it wasn't the first time you have said things like that.  
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It wasn't the first time I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm?  I won't disagree with your there. 

As I just pointed out with Tim. People like to twist words from "may" to "will". I was scolded by Politician Spock for putting words in his mouth. Funny how one side is allowed to do it, but the other not so much. 

Communication is difficult on a message board. People here want to assume the worst of opposing posters. People are quick to end conversations when they aren't getting their way. It also shows that the only purpose of their conversation is to change the other persons mind. Once that opportunity is gone, they break it off. 

 
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