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randall146

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13 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

What if we went to war with China and or Russia and we suffered some defeats while destroying those Chinese man made militarized islands in the Pacific? I would want  as many AR15s in our civilians hands as possible. Freedom begins and ends with gun ownership.

Congratulations.   You may have made the most ridiculous argument in this entire thread.    

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Just now, -fish- said:

Congratulations.   You may have made the most ridiculous argument in this entire thread.    

Sure because we could never lose any war right? The way violent Antifa types are going half of us are going to need Ar-15s to keep those home grown far left wing terrorists from killing innocent people.

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16 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Sure because we could never lose any war right? The way violent Antifa types are going half of us are going to need Ar-15s to keep those home grown far left wing terrorists from killing innocent people.

You're not fighting a war with China using civilians with rifles.   

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1 minute ago, -fish- said:

You're not fighting a war with China using civilians with rifles.   

Red Dawn III

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1 minute ago, -fish- said:

You're not fighting a war with China using civilians with rifles.   

Russia had missiles in Cuba. I could see FL being occupied easily if we were to lose in the Pacific. Life is strange. It’s not hard to imagine.

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19 hours ago, -fish- said:

No, in the context of an assault rifle it means a military assault, like storming a castle.  You really should stop trying to lie about this.  It’s become sad.

The rover is that you?

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

so there is not a huge issue with automobiles after people ARE trained, tested and licensed?  IIRC 15% and more in some states drive without a license or insurance. 35,000 dead every year, hundreds of thousands injured and billions in damages. That's how you want guns to be? really ?

How many people would die each year if we didn't require training and testing and licensing?

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25 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Russia had missiles in Cuba. I could see FL being occupied easily if we were to lose in the Pacific. Life is strange. It’s not hard to imagine.

Meh.  Haven't you heard?  Miami's going to be underwater anyway.  Maybe stealthycat will let you share his bunker to hide from Antifa.

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28 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Red Dawn III

Wait, there was a Red Dawn II?

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9 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

self justification - you're good at that 

This is one of the many things that make me sad about this thread and the climate thread.  There is just a lack of understanding about this.  No, every study is not equal, and yes, they should be peer reviewed and duplicated.  This isn't self justification, this is how science and studies work.  IMO this is something that has been lost along the way in school and something that should be emphasized.  You demonstrate why on a weekly basis.  

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8 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

This is one of the many things that make me sad about this thread and the climate thread.  There is just a lack of understanding about this.  No, every study is not equal, and yes, they should be peer reviewed and duplicated.  This isn't self justification, this is how science and studies work.  IMO this is something that has been lost along the way in school and something that should be emphasized.  You demonstrate why on a weekly basis.  

SC is the best example of confirmation bias on this board.  Nothing that shows he is wrong is considered, but anything, no matter how sketchy, that supports his positions gets accepted and repeated.  NRA has a true believer.

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6 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

so there is not a huge issue with automobiles after people ARE trained, tested and licensed?  IIRC 15% and more in some states drive without a license or insurance. 35,000 dead every year, hundreds of thousands injured and billions in damages. That's how you want guns to be? really ?

Motor vehicle fatalities per 100 million vehicles miles traveled:

1921 - 24.09

2017 - 1.16

Yes, there is not a huge issue with automobiles after people are trained, tested and licensed. 

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9 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

How many people would die each year if we didn't require training and testing and licensing?

I'm not sure - we could only guess. 

Driving a car is not the same ... I wonder if this young woman knew her weapon/trained/licensed, or was she untrained and used a gun she was just a bit familiar with? I'd guess the latter ,... and she saved their lives with her actions using a self defense gun. 

without that gun ... they'd be dead

 

https://www.kait8.com/news/national/2019/09/26/man-plots-kill-wife-ends-up-paralyzed/

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Excerpt to follow

 

Nationwide, data from 2018 shows that gun violence—accidental and intentional—is the number two cause of death for US children and teens, accounting for 3,140 deaths in 2016 (60 percent from homicide, 35 percent from suicide.) It is only topped by vehicle crashes.

However, unlike deaths from vehicle crashes, the number of minors dying from firearm injuries has remained roughly consistent over the last two decades—approximately four out of every 100,000 children and teenagers each year since 1999. It is also more than 36 times higherin the US than the average rate across 12 other high-income countries.

 

 

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The article above isn’t just stats, a 2 yr old was shot accidentally, while in the presence of several adults. Now, SC will put the blame on the adults not properly supervising the child, not properly storing their weapon, etc, all valid points to consider. I’ll argue that such irresponsible people should have never been allowed to buy a gun in the first place. 

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13 hours ago, -fish- said:

You're not fighting a war with China using civilians with rifles.   

Fallout 3: Operation Anchorage agrees

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16 hours ago, pinkham13 said:

Russia had missiles in Cuba. I could see FL being occupied easily if we were to lose in the Pacific. Life is strange. It’s not hard to imagine.

wut

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6 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'm not sure - we could only guess. 

We don't have to guess. We have historical data to know what it was like before required training, testing and licensing. Please stop ignoring important facts. 

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3 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

Excerpt to follow

 

Nationwide, data from 2018 shows that gun violence—accidental and intentional—is the number two cause of death for US children and teens, accounting for 3,140 deaths in 2016 (60 percent from homicide, 35 percent from suicide.) It is only topped by vehicle crashes.

However, unlike deaths from vehicle crashes, the number of minors dying from firearm injuries has remained roughly consistent over the last two decades—approximately four out of every 100,000 children and teenagers each year since 1999. It is also more than 36 times higherin the US than the average rate across 12 other high-income countries.

 

 

violence is terrible - i'm all for focusing on stopping violence

with auto's safety features like air bags and reinforcing the structure, barriers on the highway etc all can help when dealing with the idiot drivers of the world who simply drive carelessly

to eliminate the careless drivers, the solution isn't banning auto's, what's the solution ? education maybe? its not more restrictive rules and regulations, its not banning certain kinds of cars is it ?

 

I really do try and think of how we can stop violence in the USA. Its the core problem, snuff it out, address it and it doesn't matter the weapons chosen 

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4 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

We don't have to guess. We have historical data to know what it was like before required training, testing and licensing. Please stop ignoring important facts. 

assault automobiles is the words you're looking for? they sound exceptionally dangerous

 

you are not wrong in some ways ..... when you place a 14 or 16 year old behind the trigger of a fully automatic .50 cal rifle and allow them to practice in city parks ..... I think we both agree bad things will happen. True too was there a time that 14 year olds drove cars down roads without any regulations or rules.

now .... in today's world .... we don't have that

we have age limits to buy, to own, to use, rules and regulations on all kinds of weapons .....very common sense laws just like we have age limits on cars etc

now, you have to admit driving a car and understanding all that comes with driving is far far more complicated than holding a gun and pulling the trigger as a rapists attacks or criminals break into your house etc. Guns are simple things, like knives, for the most part (knives are very simple)

 

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4 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

The article above isn’t just stats, a 2 yr old was shot accidentally, while in the presence of several adults. Now, SC will put the blame on the adults not properly supervising the child, not properly storing their weapon, etc, all valid points to consider. I’ll argue that such irresponsible people should have never been allowed to buy a gun in the first place. 

how many irresponsible people are involved when kids drown, suicide, car seats not attached properly or leaving kids in hot cars? what would you not allow all those people .... you know to stop them from being so irresponsible ?

banning things is the solution to all those things ?

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33 minutes ago, toshiba said:

I love how this conversation always go to cars... 

 

beep! beep! 

do all the auto deaths not bother you ?

why?

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

do all the auto deaths not bother you ?

why?

This thread is not about auto deaths.  It's also not about deaths from alcohol, knives, swimming pools...

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54 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

This thread is not about auto deaths.  It's also not about deaths from alcohol, knives, swimming pools...

What about assault swimming pools?

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

This thread is not about auto deaths.  It's also not about deaths from alcohol, knives, swimming pools...

but if it were you would use the same rationale that you're using for violence and accidents involving guns right? ban, confiscate, highly restrict, license, etc etc ?

no - you wouldn't and neither would almost anyone ..... because the deaths from alcohol, auto's, knives, swimming pools etc are all acceptable dead kids and teens and people

its not really about deaths at all - its about political agenda

 

talking about society attacks social issues is important - and comparing how we do it with other things is valid

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13 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

What about assault swimming pools?

I like this - its accurate .... swimming pools kill a lot of people every year

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

but if it were you would use the same rationale that you're using for violence and accidents involving guns right? ban, confiscate, highly restrict, license, etc etc ?

no - you wouldn't and neither would almost anyone ..... because the deaths from alcohol, auto's, knives, swimming pools etc are all acceptable dead kids and teens and people

its not really about deaths at all - its about political agenda

 

talking about society attacks social issues is important - and comparing how we do it with other things is valid

I prefer to discuss them separately.  If we had a thread about auto deaths I really doubt I'd be using guns as a comparison all the time there.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

how many irresponsible people are involved when kids drown, suicide, car seats not attached properly or leaving kids in hot cars? what would you not allow all those people .... you know to stop them from being so irresponsible ?

banning things is the solution to all those things ?

Go ahead and find the post where i say anything about banning guns. 

I'm talking about thorough background checks and training. When you started hunting, did you just go out at 12 yrs old with a gun? I’ll assume your dad taught you, but I’m curious if you had to take a “hunters safety” course as I did to get my actual permit. My hunters safety course was basically all gun safety- what to do when you first pick up a gun (check to see if it’s loaded,) to look behind your shot to make sure to avoid collateral damage, wear orange, only point at what you intend to shoot, etc. A lot of people likely don’t hunt, but buy a gun for protection but never shoot it or learn any of the finer points. I mean, what do I do, slam the clip in the bottom, grab the top and pull it back like on tv, and....oh I guess there’s a button here I need to click...and ok we’re shooting! What the heck do I need a class for, this is easy! 

Auto injuries among kids is down a ton, gun injuries haven’t moved, and are way higher than any other developed countries. Don’t you care about kids? Where’s the outrage over the #1 cause of death among kids?

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2 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

wut

This is why the Chinese are building that canal in Nicaragua, to occupy Florida. Nobody will see it coming...

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46 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Those are the worst kind.

Except for Almost Spy swimming pools

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29 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I prefer to discuss them separately.  If we had a thread about auto deaths I really doubt I'd be using guns as a comparison all the time there.

I know most people want to separate analogies and comparisons that undermine the beliefs and views on a current subject. I get that.

They are valid questions though and understanding how we handle social issues some ways, and then other ways too. If I could, I'd ban cigarettes right now and save 40,000 dead people every year from second hand smoke ..... many wouldn't do that, but they'd ban semi-auto rifles guns in a second in an attempt to stop people from using then in violent acts (and knowing that only like 600 every year die by violence using semi-auto rifles)

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oooops double post sorry

Edited by Stealthycat

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21 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Go ahead and find the post where i say anything about banning guns. 

I'm talking about thorough background checks and training. When you started hunting, did you just go out at 12 yrs old with a gun? I’ll assume your dad taught you, but I’m curious if you had to take a “hunters safety” course as I did to get my actual permit. My hunters safety course was basically all gun safety- what to do when you first pick up a gun (check to see if it’s loaded,) to look behind your shot to make sure to avoid collateral damage, wear orange, only point at what you intend to shoot, etc. A lot of people likely don’t hunt, but buy a gun for protection but never shoot it or learn any of the finer points. I mean, what do I do, slam the clip in the bottom, grab the top and pull it back like on tv, and....oh I guess there’s a button here I need to click...and ok we’re shooting! What the heck do I need a class for, this is easy! 

Auto injuries among kids is down a ton, gun injuries haven’t moved, and are way higher than any other developed countries. Don’t you care about kids? Where’s the outrage over the #1 cause of death among kids?

the Govt didn't teach me - yes my Dad did but actually I got when I was 10 years old a single barrel 20 ga shotgun and I went solo into the woods everytime after that. 

I had one of the original hunters safety card in Arkansas .... 1984 maybe? I would have been 13/14 .... and I'd been hunting by myself in the woods for years already.

gun injuries have never been high - and auto deaths? still triple what violence using guns are .... to compare fairly, you need to compare "accidents" from cars and compare to "accidents" from guns

its nowhere close - auto accidents are many many times higher, and understandbly so, its not quick to pick up driving a car is it ?

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4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

assault automobiles is the words you're looking for? they sound exceptionally dangerous

 

you are not wrong in some ways ..... when you place a 14 or 16 year old behind the trigger of a fully automatic .50 cal rifle and allow them to practice in city parks ..... I think we both agree bad things will happen. True too was there a time that 14 year olds drove cars down roads without any regulations or rules.

now .... in today's world .... we don't have that

we have age limits to buy, to own, to use, rules and regulations on all kinds of weapons .....very common sense laws just like we have age limits on cars etc

now, you have to admit driving a car and understanding all that comes with driving is far far more complicated than holding a gun and pulling the trigger as a rapists attacks or criminals break into your house etc. Guns are simple things, like knives, for the most part (knives are very simple)

 

now .... in today's world .... we don't have that

...because we required people to get trained, tested and licensed in order to drive. 

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

do all the auto deaths not bother you ?

why?

this is called a false dichotomy.   just another logical fallacy.  because you base your arguments on fallacies, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion.   because someone is seeking solutions to gun deaths does not mean that auto deaths do not bother them.   it means that they are different issues with different solutions.   by suggesting they are the same, you are lying.

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12 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'm not sure - we could only guess. 

Driving a car is not the same ... I wonder if this young woman knew her weapon/trained/licensed, or was she untrained and used a gun she was just a bit familiar with? I'd guess the latter ,... and she saved their lives with her actions using a self defense gun. 

without that gun ... they'd be dead

 

https://www.kait8.com/news/national/2019/09/26/man-plots-kill-wife-ends-up-paralyzed/

Ooh, anecdotes.   Here's one.   A fully trained cop intentionally kills a completely innocent man in his own home.  Without that gun...he'd be alive.

Edited by -fish-
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49 minutes ago, McJose said:

Of course certain posters actually actively try to recruit people to join the NRA.  

Gee whiz Wally.

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

the Govt didn't teach me - yes my Dad did but actually I got when I was 10 years old a single barrel 20 ga shotgun and I went solo into the woods everytime after that. 

I had one of the original hunters safety card in Arkansas .... 1984 maybe? I would have been 13/14 .... and I'd been hunting by myself in the woods for years already.

gun injuries have never been high - and auto deaths? still triple what violence using guns are .... to compare fairly, you need to compare "accidents" from cars and compare to "accidents" from guns

its nowhere close - auto accidents are many many times higher, and understandbly so, its not quick to pick up driving a car is it ?

See we needed a card, perhaps to get a tag before you’re 14? I’m a little younger and in Michigan, so perhaps there are some differences. The class was 90% firearms safety, and we had to be able to hit a target. I think that’s reasonable to ask for.  I still think there should be at least basic demonstration of knowledge, along with looking at your criminal record. Is there an age limit to own a gun? I know there is to buy one. I’m sure your story of learning about firearms and hunting alone at a young age is pretty normal. Im sure there are plenty of others who didn’t grow up in a rural area like we did (I assume you did based on various past stories) that go to the store, pass a background check, and the guy at the counter shows them how it works quickly and suggest they go to a range and practice with it, and then the customer doesn’t. 

You keep talking about cars. So what do you consider a fair comparison? There are many more cars in use every day (actual use, not owned.) Miles driven compared to rounds fired? It’s really impossible to compare, because how can you quantify any of it or collect that data? So why keep bringing it up? Cars, trucks, and buses bring goods to markets, people to work, and play a vital role in every single one of our lives every single day. Guns do not. Just stop with the “where is the outrage about traffic deaths.” You’re right, it isn’t easy to drive a car, that’s why you need to pass a test, then spend hours and hours driving while supervised, and then you can get your license to drive a car, which costs thousands of dollars, and insure it for hundreds more because of the damage you could cause while using it. Again, you find this a valid, pertinent comparison why?

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Not sure if mentioned in here already hard to keep up with this thread since it seems like I am Bill Murray when reading through past pages...

But I personally found it very entertaining when trump was on the runway being interviewed and he said that because of this impeachment and whistleblower stuff we aren't working on gun control.

Darn it. We were so close! Gun control laws were just about to get passed! 

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I posted this in the impeachment thread. Could the GOP and Trump hold the country hostage at the next government shutdown date? 

Gun regulation may be important to some. But, I expect many things on the table are going to grind to a halt over then next few months. 

Sorry for the hijack. You can go back to calling each other liars. 

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On 9/27/2019 at 12:38 PM, Politician Spock said:

now .... in today's world .... we don't have that

...because we required people to get trained, tested and licensed in order to drive. 

again ... driving an automobile is far more complicated than operating a gun

what training would you like to see? don't shoot people training? accuracy training? how to load ammunition at home? tell me please

testing .... would you also require testing for voting and freedom of speech ?

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On 9/27/2019 at 12:46 PM, -fish- said:

this is called a false dichotomy.   just another logical fallacy.  because you base your arguments on fallacies, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion.   because someone is seeking solutions to gun deaths does not mean that auto deaths do not bother them.   it means that they are different issues with different solutions.   by suggesting they are the same, you are lying.

and that is called avoiding a question because you know the answer

and we all do too - you don't mind 35,000 deaths, you want your car and you don't want a bunch more rules and restrictions on it. You want stupid people to quit driving stupid - yes, we all want that ... but you don't want any more impacts to YOU because why? you are a law abiding, legal driver.

now ... apply that to guns

its like that

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