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randall146

USA Shootings

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On 9/27/2019 at 1:43 PM, -fish- said:

Ooh, anecdotes.   Here's one.   A fully trained cop intentionally kills a completely innocent man in his own home.  Without that gun...he'd be alive.

that's true - now how many times have people SAVED their own lives as well ? 

that blade cuts both ways .... my life was saved once when a guy in a truck drove me to an ER ..... I was also almost killed once in an auto wreck ....are cars good or bad then ?  actually neither ... car's (like guns) can't BE bad or assaulting ... people using both can be though

do you see better ??

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

again ... driving an automobile is far more complicated than operating a gun

what training would you like to see? don't shoot people training? accuracy training? how to load ammunition at home? tell me please

Accountability and safe keeping of owning a gun. The risks of suicide by other members of the home. The risk of accidents by other members of the home. The penalties for your gun ending up in the hands of someone not licensed to use it. The penalties of selling it to someone not licensed to buy it. Etc, etc...

4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

testing .... would you also require testing for voting and freedom of speech ?

Training, testing and licensing is NOT possible, unless the 2nd is revoked, or is reinterpreted so that "well regulated" is no longer ignored. 

Either way, I'm not looking to revoke the protection of voting and freedom of speech, nor looking for words that should apply to those rights to no longer be ignored. So those are red herrings. 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

that's true - now how many times have people SAVED their own lives as well ?

1:1,000,000 or worse.

🧮

 

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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On 9/27/2019 at 3:31 PM, Snorkelson said:

See we needed a card, perhaps to get a tag before you’re 14? I’m a little younger and in Michigan, so perhaps there are some differences. The class was 90% firearms safety, and we had to be able to hit a target. I think that’s reasonable to ask for.  I still think there should be at least basic demonstration of knowledge, along with looking at your criminal record. Is there an age limit to own a gun? I know there is to buy one. I’m sure your story of learning about firearms and hunting alone at a young age is pretty normal. Im sure there are plenty of others who didn’t grow up in a rural area like we did (I assume you did based on various past stories) that go to the store, pass a background check, and the guy at the counter shows them how it works quickly and suggest they go to a range and practice with it, and then the customer doesn’t. 

You keep talking about cars. So what do you consider a fair comparison? There are many more cars in use every day (actual use, not owned.) Miles driven compared to rounds fired? It’s really impossible to compare, because how can you quantify any of it or collect that data? So why keep bringing it up? Cars, trucks, and buses bring goods to markets, people to work, and play a vital role in every single one of our lives every single day. Guns do not. Just stop with the “where is the outrage about traffic deaths.” You’re right, it isn’t easy to drive a car, that’s why you need to pass a test, then spend hours and hours driving while supervised, and then you can get your license to drive a car, which costs thousands of dollars, and insure it for hundreds more because of the damage you could cause while using it. Again, you find this a valid, pertinent comparison why?

ok all the training you had was only maybe what, 1 day? or 8 hours over a week's time?  how many times in the course of a year, do people get killed because of what they teach not to do in hunters ed ? not many  - and certainly not 12-13,000 murders

maybe we should have a few weeks of the year that all youth in schools undergo "don't kill people and don't be violent" training. Would you think that's a good idea?

 

my comparison using cars and driving is - close to the same numbers each year die in DUI deaths as violence using guns. Both are the results of people making choices, against the laws. 

if you wanted to stop DUI deaths, what would you do?  would you ban one of the least used car's in DUI deaths? why not?  that's the comparison .... banning AR15's is literally banning one of the least used weapons in violence.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

1:1,000,000 or worse.

🧮

 

how many officers have died this year?

how many have killed criminals to save their lives and others ? 

guns are used every day to stop crime, deter crimes, protect innocent people from criminals ........ why do you think BETO surround himself with people with guns? 

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On 9/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Snorkelson said:

Go ahead and find the post where i say anything about banning guns. 

I'm talking about thorough background checks and training. When you started hunting, did you just go out at 12 yrs old with a gun? I’ll assume your dad taught you, but I’m curious if you had to take a “hunters safety” course as I did to get my actual permit. My hunters safety course was basically all gun safety- what to do when you first pick up a gun (check to see if it’s loaded,) to look behind your shot to make sure to avoid collateral damage, wear orange, only point at what you intend to shoot, etc. A lot of people likely don’t hunt, but buy a gun for protection but never shoot it or learn any of the finer points. I mean, what do I do, slam the clip in the bottom, grab the top and pull it back like on tv, and....oh I guess there’s a button here I need to click...and ok we’re shooting! What the heck do I need a class for, this is easy! 

Auto injuries among kids is down a ton, gun injuries haven’t moved, and are way higher than any other developed countries. Don’t you care about kids? Where’s the outrage over the #1 cause of death among kids?

Kids??? Abortion killed 28 million worldwide so far. Why aren’t we banning that? Where is the liberal outrage? 

I mean you guys always claim the moral high ground but never mind all the tiny heartbeats extinguished daily. 

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3 hours ago, pinkham13 said:

Kids??? Abortion killed 28 million worldwide so far. Why aren’t we banning that? Where is the liberal outrage? 

I mean you guys always claim the moral high ground but never mind all the tiny heartbeats extinguished daily. 

I’m not pro abortion, I just don’t think that’s for me to decide unless I’m involved.

I know stealthy bangs the “it’s the parents, fatherless homes, society, etc” drum a lot, and he’s right about that. 

Unintended consequences

Levitts theory

Violent crime rate graph

If you have time, read thru the first article and if you find it an interesting theory I provided the more in depth paper. I included the graph for better visualization. This is simply a theory on why crime dropped about 15-20 years after abortions became legal. 

I admit it’s hard to come to terms that there may be societal benefits of abortions. 

 

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4 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

I’m not pro abortion, I just don’t think that’s for me to decide unless I’m involved.

I know stealthy bangs the “it’s the parents, fatherless homes, society, etc” drum a lot, and he’s right about that. 

Unintended consequences

Levitts theory

Violent crime rate graph

If you have time, read thru the first article and if you find it an interesting theory I provided the more in depth paper. I included the graph for better visualization. This is simply a theory on why crime dropped about 15-20 years after abortions became legal. 

I admit it’s hard to come to terms that there may be societal benefits of abortions. 

 

How much would crime drop if it were mandatory for everyone to own a gun? Towns that have the mandate have very low crime rates and you don’t have to stomp out any heart beats to get the result.

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12 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

How much would crime drop if it were mandatory for everyone to own a gun? Towns that have the mandate have very low crime rates and you don’t have to stomp out any heart beats to get the result.

Well to use the stealthy argument, it wouldn’t do much because violent people will still be violent, except now they are required to own a deadly weapon. 

There are towns that mandate gun ownership... I guess I’ve heard that but thought it was one of those ordinances that some rural town made to show support for guns and some media outlets put out the headline. How do they enforce that? I’d take the time to read if you wanted to link any info. 

 

Ill add add that I don’t think it would work as population density rises.

Edited by Snorkelson

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Mostly false? 

I looked it up and Kennesaw has 34k people, I was surprised by that. However, how many of these towns enforce these laws? Do they need to, or is the idea enough? I’ve found 5 towns that have done this, and it’s unclear whether that’s true @pinkham13. Feel free to show me something else, I feel I’ve done my diligence in this conversation. 

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5 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

I admit it’s hard to come to terms that there may be societal benefits of abortions. 

 

that was the goal of Sanger - empower black women to have abortions and kill out the next generation of the black population - one of the biggest American racists, Margaret Sanger :(    so yeah, if killing off certain skin colors is the goal? bravo, well done

 

demographics have changed over the years 

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3 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Mostly false? 

I looked it up and Kennesaw has 34k people, I was surprised by that. However, how many of these towns enforce these laws? Do they need to, or is the idea enough? I’ve found 5 towns that have done this, and it’s unclear whether that’s true @pinkham13. Feel free to show me something else, I feel I’ve done my diligence in this conversation. 

Well anything from snopes is questionable because they 100% never go against liberal ideals. I would assume anything they publish is completely made up and fabricated like the Russian collusion conspiracy theory and the latest impeachment fantasy.

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23 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

How much would crime drop if it were mandatory for everyone to own a gun? Towns that have the mandate have very low crime rates and you don’t have to stomp out any heart beats to get the result.

 

13 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Well to use the stealthy argument, it wouldn’t do much because violent people will still be violent, except now they are required to own a deadly weapon. 

 

 

Snorkelson - if you wanted to be a criminals, commit a violent crime .... would you do it to a home that you know the owner has guns and know that attacking that home could easily end up in a gun fight? or ... would you go to a home that looks least defended, that the owners have a much lower chance of owning guns? ( like their cars have Hillary stickers of BETO stickers etc) ???

but lets be honest here .... a 1500 person town in rural Iowa isn't likely to see much crime with all 1500 having guns. you take a city block in a high gang inner city area with 1500 people living there, arm them all and it'll be a blood bath

why? I know why, you know why, everyone knows why ... its the people that's the core problem

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3 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Well anything from snopes is questionable because they 100% never go against liberal ideals. I would assume anything they publish is completely made up and fabricated like the Russian collusion conspiracy theory and the latest impeachment fantasy.

I just googled mandatory gun ownership. As I said, I’ll take any evidence or related article a read.

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9 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

that was the goal of Sanger - empower black women to have abortions and kill out the next generation of the black population - one of the biggest American racists, Margaret Sanger :(    so yeah, if killing off certain skin colors is the goal? bravo, well done

 

demographics have changed over the years 

Ummm that’s not anything close to what I suggested.

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

 

 

Snorkelson - if you wanted to be a criminals, commit a violent crime .... would you do it to a home that you know the owner has guns and know that attacking that home could easily end up in a gun fight? or ... would you go to a home that looks least defended, that the owners have a much lower chance of owning guns? ( like their cars have Hillary stickers of BETO stickers etc) ???

but lets be honest here .... a 1500 person town in rural Iowa isn't likely to see much crime with all 1500 having guns. you take a city block in a high gang inner city area with 1500 people living there, arm them all and it'll be a blood bath

why? I know why, you know why, everyone knows why ... its the people that's the core problem

Yeah rural vs. city I can see your point. But I think I would point to drug trafficking as the main culprit more than the people. I say legalize it all and remove the gangs by taking away the business.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

 

 

Snorkelson - if you wanted to be a criminals, commit a violent crime .... would you do it to a home that you know the owner has guns and know that attacking that home could easily end up in a gun fight? or ... would you go to a home that looks least defended, that the owners have a much lower chance of owning guns? ( like their cars have Hillary stickers of BETO stickers etc) ???

but lets be honest here .... a 1500 person town in rural Iowa isn't likely to see much crime with all 1500 having guns. you take a city block in a high gang inner city area with 1500 people living there, arm them all and it'll be a blood bath

why? I know why, you know why, everyone knows why ... its the people that's the core problem

Yes, and having more control over who has guns would seem like an important thing to do, to ensure they are in the right hands.

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Just now, Snorkelson said:

Ummm that’s not anything close to what I suggested.

but it does tie in

Sanger wanted fewer black people - she was very much a nazi and racist and empowering black women to kill off the next generation was a perfect solution. Planned Parenthood early stages. Anyway, the societal benefit was there in her mind - abortion rate for Black women is almost 4 times that of White women, 36.0% of all abortions in the U.S. in 2014 were performed on Black women, however, only about 13.3% of the total population is Black

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1 minute ago, pinkham13 said:

Yeah rural vs. city I can see your point. But I think I would point to drug trafficking as the main culprit more than the people. I say legalize it all and remove the gangs by taking away the business.

With pot in particular I’ve made the point that it would be less of a “gateway” drug if it were legal. I smoked pot before it became state legal. Many times, when going to buy pot from someone, they have more than just pot, or access to other stuff. Plenty of times I’ve heard “I have this or that too if your interested.” If it were regulated and bought at the store you wouldn’t have someone offering you shrooms or OxyContin or ecstasy or whatever.  

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4 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Yes, and having more control over who has guns would seem like an important thing to do, to ensure they are in the right hands.

controlling the guns wouldn't stop the violence would it ?    the core problem remains - the violence

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9 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

I just googled mandatory gun ownership. As I said, I’ll take any evidence or related article a read.

Thanks for being open minded. Apparently there were rifle clubs in high schools. We didn’t have mass school shootings back then. But people are drugged up and crazy these days.

https://observer.com/2016/03/must-pack-heat-the-case-for-mandating-gun-ownership/

Edited by pinkham13

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2 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

With pot in particular I’ve made the point that it would be less of a “gateway” drug if it were legal. I smoked pot before it became state legal. Many times, when going to buy pot from someone, they have more than just pot, or access to other stuff. Plenty of times I’ve heard “I have this or that too if your interested.” If it were regulated and bought at the store you wouldn’t have someone offering you shrooms or OxyContin or ecstasy or whatever.  

drugs aren't a Constitutional Right

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Just now, pinkham13 said:

Thanks for being open minded. Apparently there were rifle clubs in high schools. We didn’t have mass school shootings back then. But people are drugged up and crazy these days.

my Dad was born in 1935 ... when he went to school, every boy carried a rifle to and from school. When in school, they were all leaned up in the corner

never a shooting

in 1987 I graduated high school. in the years I drove to school, I'd say 1/3 of all the trucks had gun racks, and semi-auto rifles hung on them. never a school shooting

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4 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

With pot in particular I’ve made the point that it would be less of a “gateway” drug if it were legal. I smoked pot before it became state legal. Many times, when going to buy pot from someone, they have more than just pot, or access to other stuff. Plenty of times I’ve heard “I have this or that too if your interested.” If it were regulated and bought at the store you wouldn’t have someone offering you shrooms or OxyContin or ecstasy or whatever.  

Yup. Drugs are more of a problem than guns to me. Take away the business and clamp down on prescription drugs. Everybody seems to be on something one way or another.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

my Dad was born in 1935 ... when he went to school, every boy carried a rifle to and from school. When in school, they were all leaned up in the corner

never a shooting

in 1987 I graduated high school. in the years I drove to school, I'd say 1/3 of all the trucks had gun racks, and semi-auto rifles hung on them. never a school shooting

Exactly. Guns were a respected part of culture then. Now it’s a gang glam rap video or Scarface or video game. 

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10 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

but it does tie in

Sanger wanted fewer black people - she was very much a nazi and racist and empowering black women to kill off the next generation was a perfect solution. Planned Parenthood early stages. Anyway, the societal benefit was there in her mind - abortion rate for Black women is almost 4 times that of White women, 36.0% of all abortions in the U.S. in 2014 were performed on Black women, however, only about 13.3% of the total population is Black

So it was the racist person encouraging and advocating black women to get abortions, that’s quite different than levitts theory that crime dropped unexpectedly and tied it to abortion and bringing unwanted/uncared for children into the world. Again, I’m not going to bang this drum, only pointing out that cars, and possibly abortions, have societal value (perhaps). Guns do to, especially in rural areas, I’ve gone on about the benefits of hunting and the quality one on one time fathers and mothers spend with their kids, damage to crops, etc. I just think we need to drastically change how we distribute the guns.

Edited by Snorkelson
And the type of weapons we allow

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2 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

So it was the racist person encouraging and advocating black women to get abortions, that’s quite different than levitts theory that crime dropped unexpectedly and tied it to abortion and bringing unwanted/uncared for children into the world. Again, I’m not going to bang this drum, only pointing out that cars, and possibly abortions, have societal value (perhaps). Guns do to, especially in rural areas, I’ve gone on about the benefits of hunting and the quality one on one time fathers and mothers spend with their kids, damage to crops, etc. I just think we need to drastically change how we distribute the guns.

Seems like a reasonable person. I just feel like government will abuse any inch given to them. I could see red flag laws being abused.

If you voted for Trump you are insane said the liberal bureaucrat. We definitely need to take his guns.

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7 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

my Dad was born in 1935 ... when he went to school, every boy carried a rifle to and from school. When in school, they were all leaned up in the corner

never a shooting

in 1987 I graduated high school. in the years I drove to school, I'd say 1/3 of all the trucks had gun racks, and semi-auto rifles hung on them. never a school shooting

History of school shootings

Didn’t happen as much

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2 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

History of school shootings

Didn’t happen as much

Yup it’s like CO2. Eliminate it entirely and we all die because plants need CO2 for photosynthesis.

Eliminate all guns that are strong enough to defend against violent mobs and the mobs will become the size of the current Venezuelan ones.

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1 minute ago, pinkham13 said:

Seems like a reasonable person. I just feel like government will abuse any inch given to them. I could see red flag laws being abused.

If you voted for Trump you are insane said the liberal bureaucrat. We definitely need to take his guns.

I’m positive some will, but most will likely save lives. 

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Just now, Snorkelson said:

I’m positive some will, but most will likely save lives. 

If it’s just about saving lives let’s start with the 28 million dead heart beats across the globe this year due to abortion.

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1 minute ago, pinkham13 said:

Yup it’s like CO2. Eliminate it entirely and we all die because plants need CO2 for photosynthesis.

Eliminate all guns that are strong enough to defend against violent mobs and the mobs will become the size of the current Venezuelan ones.

I, and most gun control advocates on this board, are not arguing for a ban.

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Just now, Snorkelson said:

I, and most gun control advocates on this board, are not arguing for a ban.

Uh banning AR15s are the centerpiece of ya’lls gun control theory.

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4 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Uh banning AR15s are the centerpiece of ya’lls gun control theory.

Oh I see, “guns that are strong enough.” Ok, agree to disagree on the point that we would be overrun with mobs. 

I read article you posted. I didn’t get much fact or even an arguement about why that would be a good idea. Then I looked up the author, and it’s not someone whose opinion I think I’m going to put much stock in. 

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1 minute ago, Snorkelson said:

Oh I see, “guns that are strong enough.” Ok, agree to disagree on the point that we would be overrun with mobs. 

I read article you posted. I didn’t get much fact or even an arguement about why that would be a good idea. Then I looked up the author, and it’s not someone whose opinion I think I’m going to put much stock in. 

Got it. Second amendment rights should be infringed due to safety concerns but 28 million dead heartbeats is a societal benefit.???

Antifa mobs are popping up often. Just because you don’t think it’s a valid threat or concern is irrelevant.

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16 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Got it. Second amendment rights should be infringed due to safety concerns but 28 million dead heartbeats is a societal benefit.???

Antifa mobs are popping up often. Just because you don’t think it’s a valid threat or concern is irrelevant.

Well the data supports the idea. Im trying to provoke thought, seems I’m only provoking you. 

As to your second point, :lmao:.  

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26 minutes ago, pinkham13 said:

Got it. Second amendment rights should be infringed due to safety concerns but 28 million dead heartbeats is a societal benefit.???

Antifa mobs are popping up often. Just because you don’t think it’s a valid threat or concern is irrelevant.

Just one more point to make- total abortion deaths worldwide ever, 28 million according to you. 

Have any info on gun deaths worldwide, even maybe last 50 years compared to this?

Edited by Snorkelson
It very well could be less

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16 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

that's true - now how many times have people SAVED their own lives as well ? 

that blade cuts both ways .... my life was saved once when a guy in a truck drove me to an ER ..... I was also almost killed once in an auto wreck ....are cars good or bad then ?  actually neither ... car's (like guns) can't BE bad or assaulting ... people using both can be though

do you see better ??

As you’ve been shown multiple times, it is far more likely that a gun owner will be injured or killed than ever use their gun in self defense.  Your anecdotes are meaningless.

This particular post is just gibberish.  Nonsensical even for you.  Cars!  Inanimate objects!  

Fallacies and lies.  Every time.

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2 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Of course they do.

But aren’t like 250 million crimes stopped every day thanks to guns?

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We could stop robberies and theft by banning people from owning anything of value. Thieves won't have anything to steal. Blame all the people that have valuables, not the people that want to steal those things. 

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1 hour ago, McJose said:

But aren’t like 250 million crimes stopped every day thanks to guns?

If you're Gary Kleck, yes.

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2 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

Antifa mobs?

Like flash mobs, only they do dance battles with fascists.

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12 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

I admit it’s hard to come to terms that there may be societal benefits of abortions. 

Well, it seems like you haven't since you say you are still against abortion

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