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USA Shootings (9 Viewers)

Apple Jack said:
And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.
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As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?

I think it's too early to know if any of the victims were hit by friendly fire. 

 
KCitons said:
As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?

I think it's too early to know if any of the victims were hit by friendly fire. 
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Ha!

Law abiding armed citizens prevent a shooting from turning into a massacre--but "Well, there could have been friendly fire.  We don't know yet.  There's no way to say that those 2 people wouldn't be alive if the armed church goers didn't have guns"  C'mon.

 
Choke said:
Its tremendous that he did not have an assault rifle/machine-gun. Phenomenally better outcome for everyone involved.

And having a former officer of the law who has likely been thoroughly vetted and trained during his life, as an officer on hand, was a tremendous boon.
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machine gun?   really ?

 
jm192 said:
I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING."  Let's get it right.  It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin. 
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A problem is we will never have the perfect bill.  As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians.  The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.  

I, for one, would like to see an imperfect bill agreed to.

 
Juxtatarot said:
A problem is we will never have the perfect bill.  As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians.  The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.  

I, for one, would like to see an imperfect bill agreed to.
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I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back.  We finally did something.  And the middle class have suffered ever since.  There are repercussions from an imperfect bill.  So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this." 

 
jm192 said:
I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back.  We finally did something.  And the middle class have suffered ever since.  There are repercussions from an imperfect bill.  So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this." 
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The bolded sentence is outrageously hyperbolic.

I wish you a happy New Year.

 
jm192 said:
I don't think many people advocate for do nothing.  Poorly planned solutions lead to poor outcomes.  We should make sure when we make a law, it's effective and has little impact on the rights of law abiding citizens.  

I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING."  Let's get it right.  It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin. 
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Hurry up?  This has been an issue for a long tome.  There has been no hurry which is part of the problem.

 
jm192 said:
Ha!

Law abiding armed citizens prevent a shooting from turning into a massacre--but "Well, there could have been friendly fire.  We don't know yet.  There's no way to say that those 2 people wouldn't be alive if the armed church goers didn't have guns"  C'mon.
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I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)

I also see the armed citizen fire over parishioners to neutralize the shooter. There was a chance for someone to be hit by friendly fire. Reports are that there were multiple armed citizens that fired. But, I don't see that from the video. Even so, having 3-4 people in a church environment shooting has a high probability of crossfire and innocent people being caught between. The only way to know for certain how a victim died, is for ballistic forensics. Not enough time has passed. .You can argue what if's all you want. I'm just pointing out facts. 

 
KCitons said:
I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)

I also see the armed citizen fire over parishioners to neutralize the shooter. There was a chance for someone to be hit by friendly fire. Reports are that there were multiple armed citizens that fired. But, I don't see that from the video. Even so, having 3-4 people in a church environment shooting has a high probability of crossfire and innocent people being caught between. The only way to know for certain how a victim died, is for ballistic forensics. Not enough time has passed. .You can argue what if's all you want. I'm just pointing out facts. 
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I'm not talking about a single what if. 

Armed church goers stopped the shooter.  That's a fact.  If anything is a "what if," it's your "can't rule out crossfire." 

Is the chance of an innocent person being hit in a cross fire higher than the chance that they're shot by an unabated shooter?

 
jm192 said:
I'm not talking about a single what if. 

Armed church goers stopped the shooter.  That's a fact.  If anything is a "what if," it's your "can't rule out crossfire." 

Is the chance of an innocent person being hit in a cross fire higher than the chance that they're shot by an unabated shooter?
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Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 

 
KCitons said:
Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 
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I'd like to learn more about all of these reports of innocent people being caught in the crossfire. 

 
KCitons said:
One

Two

Three
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I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers."  I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could.  While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best? 

 
The General said:
Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.
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Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

 
jm192 said:
I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers."  I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could.  While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best? 
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Maybe go back and reread the conversation. Paying particular to my comments with the original poster. You're making a lot of assumptions about my comments, taking the minimal amount of time to listen in order to respond. Slow down. Let it percolate. 

 
Jackstraw said:
Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 
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exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at all

 
killface said:
exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at all
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This is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to. 

 
KCitons said:
Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 
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Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?

 
lod001 said:
This is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to. 
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you know every psycho and criminal doesn't have access to ar-15s in pretty much every other first world country in the world

this is the type of post from someone that essentially admits failure....we are a society at war with each other.  Let's all just arm up and be happy when the guy only kills 6 kids in a school before someone shots him dead.  Yea, let's celebrate that.

 
Choke said:
Then why aren't they using machine guns, hand grenades and bazookas?

:grad:
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the answer is so obvious it's amazing it flies right over their head

if they believe everything is better than yes let's sell bazooka's and anthrax at the local corner store...as long as there is another guy with a bazooka than what the heck...

 
Jackstraw said:
Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 
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Mass shooting averted

The citizens who were inside that church undoubtedly saved 242 other parishioners," Regional Director of Texas Department of Public Safety Jeoff Williams told reporters Sunday night.  The men were two of multiple members of the church security team who responded to the gunman, identified as Keith Thomas Kinnunen. However, Paxton said the head of security, Jack Wilson, was the only person who shot at Kinnunen, and he fired just once. The shot killed the gunman.
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lod001 said:
Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?
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KCitons said:
Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 
Click to expand...

 
Choke said:
Every single one (assaults style) you can remove from the system can save lives.

Over time, you make a massive change.

It appears as if you just "love guns" too much. Nothing more or less.
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I don't even own a gun.  I'm just being realistic.

How do you propose taking 5 million guns off the street?  Even if you had a plan, you don't, but even if you did it will never happen.  Beto is the only Democrat that came out and said he wanted to take guns, guess what?  He wasn't in the race much longer after that.  Think about that for a minute.

 
Choke said:
Sounds like "ITS TOO HARD TO TRY".

That is easy to reject.  As every single one removed can make a massive difference.

And ftr, the stigma of being a flat out criminal would alleviate a ton more.
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You can try and flap your arms too, but, you aren’t ever going to fly around the room. 

 
Choke said:
So lets try. If it saves lives, terrific.

  • Estimated 5-10 million already in the U.S. Some say as many as 20.
  • There are only 640,00 full-auto machine guns in circulation in America because of the ban, so thats already terrific.
  • Every year around 1.5 million new hit American circulation that will NOT land.  AWESOME!
Just the "new" would be a massive improvement. And save American lives.  So "flying around the room" would absolutely happen. Your beliefs are not the discussion.
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Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting. 

 
KCitons said:
Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting. 
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80% lowers for $165.   This cat is never going back in the bag. 

 
Choke said:
That was from manufacturers.

And assuredly we get some machine-guns here illegally too.
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Finish your 3 guns you just bought for $165. 

Each AMT jig kit is made from American made steel and is reusable and can finish dozens of AMT AR-10 or AR-15 80 lower receivers.

Each jig kit includes side plates, nesting plate (used for locating and holding drill plate and end mill plates), 1 – 3/8 drill plate, 1 – 3/8 end mill plate, 1 – 3/8 end mill plate, 1 – 5/16 end mill plate,  4 – set screws, 2 – allen wrenches.

Each jig kit comes with instructions on how to finish your AMT 80 lower. Please note: our 80 Lower Receiver Jig does not come with the
High End Tooling Kit required for finishing
Click to expand...

 
Jackstraw said:
Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 
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How is it not a success story?  Do you believe that we'll wake up one day it will magically be zero?  I don't.  

The potential for death, injuries and damage was in the hundreds.  It stopped at 2 innocent lives, and the shooter.  And we can spin it all we want and say "but it's not zero," but the reality is it will never be zero.  When an active shooter decides to kill as many people as he can and the number stops at 2--that is a success story.  

Unless of course your real goal is to get guns out of the hands of every American.  Because it crushes the narrative that you want to promote.  

This guy was a felon with a gun.  And every time it's a legally obtained gun, "SEE, IF WE MADE IT HARDER TO GET GUNZ, IT WOULD STOP."

So now we have a piece of evidence that you can't legislate away mental illness through gun control.  And instead we spin it.  THREE DEAD, GUNS COULDN'T SAVE 'EM ALL FROM GUNS.

 
Choke said:
Sure, this is about a law(s) getting passed and people arguing to prevent such from being passed.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU QUOTED>>> Only because people like you are trying not to allow it.

They say things like its too hard to try and it will never work.
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Sorry. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. 

Discussing something on an internet message board has zero to do with getting a law passed. 

If you suddenly convinced everyone here that you are correct and all guns should be banned, would they magically be banned?

 
Choke said:
Yes.

Not "magically" though. It would still take some time. But it would happen if everyone was convinced.
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You are aware that 80% of the country is for universal background checks? Yet here we are. 

Why hasn't it happened yet?

 
Choke said:
1) A poll is just in theory.

2) Everyone. Is Everyone. Not 80%

3) Lobbying and propaganda. (Its too hard!)

48 percent of those surveyed in a Quinnipiac University Poll in 2013 indicated that they believed the government could use background checks to confiscate legally-owned guns.
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We live in a country where we are all free to think and form our own opinions. Those opinions are then entrusted to our representatives to carry out. There is very rarely going to be a topic where 100% of the country agrees. That's why we have a democratic majority to decide the outcome. Gun control is just one of those issues. Not everyone agrees on abortion, death penalty, taxes, etc. We don't need to squash others' opinions in order to accomplish the goals of the majority. 

I think your true fear is that you are in the minority when it comes to gun control regulations beyond universal background checks. Your tactic should be to convince others why specific laws should be passed and how they will be effective, not silence the other side from doing the same. 

 
Choke said:
Wont outlaws have those?

Or are they too hard to acquire and too problematic to own?
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good question

my BIL was 6 years Iraq/Iran ... he said he rarely used the fully auto feature because its simply too inaccurate

its like asking why don't criminals use 475 H&H rifles - the giant big bore guns. They are massively deadly ........ why don't people use them?  too problematic is a good way to explain it I suppose. 

 
Jackstraw said:
Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 
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35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?

if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?

I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world 

 
today, tens of millions of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, tens of millions of semi-auto weapons legally owned were not used incorrectly

today, 99.999999% of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, liberals want to target legally owned guns and legal gun owners and pass laws to impact us in an effort to stop the 0.00001 % 

 
Stealthycat said:
35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?

if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?

I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world 
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But how many would be killed as a result of reckless, negligent, or just purely accidental behavior?

 
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