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On 12/21/2019 at 5:05 PM, Stealthycat said:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/new-zealand-assault-weapon-ban-mosque-attack-collection

 

50,000 turned in

but

 

1.5 million guns exist in New Zealand

 

I say this now - in 3 years and 5 years, people will look back and see that there is no fewer killings and no less violence. This ban will make no difference except legal law abiding people will be shackled more in what they can own, shoot, hunt with and defend themselves with

 

criminals win here  :(

Guns vs assault weapons.

We know shotguns and pistols dont work the same as the things they removed.

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4 minutes ago, kodycutter said:

That is awful, good thing those churchgoers had been carrying.

Thankfully he only pulled out a shotgun too.

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On 12/21/2019 at 8:05 PM, Stealthycat said:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/new-zealand-assault-weapon-ban-mosque-attack-collection

 

50,000 turned in

but

 

1.5 million guns exist in New Zealand

 

I say this now - in 3 years and 5 years, people will look back and see that there is no fewer killings and no less violence. This ban will make no difference except legal law abiding people will be shackled more in what they can own, shoot, hunt with and defend themselves with

 

criminals win here  :(

The idea is long-term, for future generations. Nobody expects results overnight, which is effectively what 3-5 years is.

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1 hour ago, Apple Jack said:

The idea is long-term, for future generations. Nobody expects results overnight, which is effectively what 3-5 years is.

You know, the best and easiest way to get no results? Do nothing. As some people on these boards are advocating 

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15 minutes ago, msommer said:

You know, the best and easiest way to get no results? Do nothing. As some people on these boards are advocating 

Do nothing? There may be one (1) person that has suggested doing nothing. Everyone else appears to want, at least, some basic changes. Regardless of whether you are wanting universal background checks or all guns banned, it appears that both are at the mercy of a Senate that doesn't want to address any of it. Not sure what else can be done?

It is interesting that you choose to concentrate your efforts on the single outlier. Seems like it's not the best use of your resources. :shrug:

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Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.

 

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6 hours ago, squistion said:

Shooting :

UPDATE

West Freeway Church of Christ in Fort Worth.

• TWO dead

• three critical

• one suspect in custody <unconfirmed>

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-critically-injured-shooting-white-settlement-church/

how do you feel about that ?

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14 minutes ago, Choke said:

Its tremendous that he did not have an assault rifle/machine-gun. Phenomenally better outcome for everyone involved.

And having a former officer of the law who has likely been thoroughly vetted and trained during his life, as an officer on hand, was a tremendous boon.

And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.

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5 hours ago, msommer said:

You know, the best and easiest way to get no results? Do nothing. As some people on these boards are advocating 

I don't think many people advocate for do nothing.  Poorly planned solutions lead to poor outcomes.  We should make sure when we make a law, it's effective and has little impact on the rights of law abiding citizens.  

I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING."  Let's get it right.  It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin. 

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5 hours ago, jm192 said:

I don't think many people advocate for do nothing.

Welcome to this thread, I'd recommend reading it from the first post to the last. It may change your opinion

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9 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.

Certainly.  That's why you train though.  

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11 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.

As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?

I think it's too early to know if any of the victims were hit by friendly fire. 

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1 hour ago, KCitons said:

As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?

I think it's too early to know if any of the victims were hit by friendly fire. 

Ha!

Law abiding armed citizens prevent a shooting from turning into a massacre--but "Well, there could have been friendly fire.  We don't know yet.  There's no way to say that those 2 people wouldn't be alive if the armed church goers didn't have guns"  C'mon.

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12 hours ago, Choke said:

Its tremendous that he did not have an assault rifle/machine-gun. Phenomenally better outcome for everyone involved.

And having a former officer of the law who has likely been thoroughly vetted and trained during his life, as an officer on hand, was a tremendous boon.

machine gun?   really ?

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11 hours ago, jm192 said:

 

I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING."  Let's get it right.  It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin. 

A problem is we will never have the perfect bill.  As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians.  The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.  

I, for one, would like to see an imperfect bill agreed to.

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Just now, Juxtatarot said:

A problem is we will never have the perfect bill.  As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians.  The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.  

I, for one, would like to see an imperfect bill agreed to.

I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back.  We finally did something.  And the middle class have suffered ever since.  There are repercussions from an imperfect bill.  So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this." 

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Just now, jm192 said:

I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back.  We finally did something.  And the middle class have suffered ever since.  There are repercussions from an imperfect bill.  So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this." 

The bolded sentence is outrageously hyperbolic.

I wish you a happy New Year.

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11 hours ago, jm192 said:

I don't think many people advocate for do nothing.  Poorly planned solutions lead to poor outcomes.  We should make sure when we make a law, it's effective and has little impact on the rights of law abiding citizens.  

I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING."  Let's get it right.  It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin. 

Hurry up?  This has been an issue for a long tome.  There has been no hurry which is part of the problem.

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6 hours ago, msommer said:

Welcome to this thread, I'd recommend reading it from the first post to the last. It may change your opinion

Haha.  I'll give you that. 

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20 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

The bolded sentence is outrageously hyperbolic.

I wish you a happy New Year.

Same to you

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1 hour ago, jm192 said:

Ha!

Law abiding armed citizens prevent a shooting from turning into a massacre--but "Well, there could have been friendly fire.  We don't know yet.  There's no way to say that those 2 people wouldn't be alive if the armed church goers didn't have guns"  C'mon.

I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)

I also see the armed citizen fire over parishioners to neutralize the shooter. There was a chance for someone to be hit by friendly fire. Reports are that there were multiple armed citizens that fired. But, I don't see that from the video. Even so, having 3-4 people in a church environment shooting has a high probability of crossfire and innocent people being caught between. The only way to know for certain how a victim died, is for ballistic forensics. Not enough time has passed. .You can argue what if's all you want. I'm just pointing out facts. 

 

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)

I also see the armed citizen fire over parishioners to neutralize the shooter. There was a chance for someone to be hit by friendly fire. Reports are that there were multiple armed citizens that fired. But, I don't see that from the video. Even so, having 3-4 people in a church environment shooting has a high probability of crossfire and innocent people being caught between. The only way to know for certain how a victim died, is for ballistic forensics. Not enough time has passed. .You can argue what if's all you want. I'm just pointing out facts. 

 

I'm not talking about a single what if. 

Armed church goers stopped the shooter.  That's a fact.  If anything is a "what if," it's your "can't rule out crossfire." 

Is the chance of an innocent person being hit in a cross fire higher than the chance that they're shot by an unabated shooter?

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54 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I'm not talking about a single what if. 

Armed church goers stopped the shooter.  That's a fact.  If anything is a "what if," it's your "can't rule out crossfire." 

Is the chance of an innocent person being hit in a cross fire higher than the chance that they're shot by an unabated shooter?

Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 

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5 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 

I'd like to learn more about all of these reports of innocent people being caught in the crossfire. 

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3 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

I'd like to learn more about all of these reports of innocent people being caught in the crossfire. 

One

Two

Three

 

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2 hours ago, KCitons said:

I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers."  I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could.  While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best? 

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21 hours ago, The General said:

Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.

 

Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

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2 hours ago, jm192 said:

I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers."  I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could.  While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best? 

Maybe go back and reread the conversation. Paying particular to my comments with the original poster. You're making a lot of assumptions about my comments, taking the minimal amount of time to listen in order to respond. Slow down. Let it percolate. 

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46 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at all

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On 12/29/2019 at 2:26 PM, squistion said:

Shooting :

UPDATE

West Freeway Church of Christ in Fort Worth.

• TWO dead

• three critical

• one suspect in custody <unconfirmed>

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-critically-injured-shooting-white-settlement-church/

Good thing there were law abiding citizens packing heat there huh?

Hello??? Anyone home?

 

21 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

how do you feel about that ?

I don't think he read the article 

 

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39 minutes ago, killface said:

exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at all

This is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to. 

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5 hours ago, KCitons said:

Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 

Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?

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2 minutes ago, lod001 said:

This is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to. 

you know every psycho and criminal doesn't have access to ar-15s in pretty much every other first world country in the world

this is the type of post from someone that essentially admits failure....we are a society at war with each other.  Let's all just arm up and be happy when the guy only kills 6 kids in a school before someone shots him dead.  Yea, let's celebrate that.

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1 minute ago, Choke said:

Then why aren't they using machine guns, hand grenades and bazookas?

:grad:

the answer is so obvious it's amazing it flies right over their head

if they believe everything is better than yes let's sell bazooka's and anthrax at the local corner store...as long as there is another guy with a bazooka than what the heck...

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1 hour ago, Jackstraw said:

Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

Mass shooting averted

Quote

The citizens who were inside that church undoubtedly saved 242 other parishioners," Regional Director of Texas Department of Public Safety Jeoff Williams told reporters Sunday night.  The men were two of multiple members of the church security team who responded to the gunman, identified as Keith Thomas Kinnunen. However, Paxton said the head of security, Jack Wilson, was the only person who shot at Kinnunen, and he fired just once. The shot killed the gunman.

 

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9 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?

 

6 hours ago, KCitons said:

Armed  church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?

Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't. 

We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute. 

Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond. 

Have a nice day. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Choke said:

Then why aren't they using machine guns, hand grenades and bazookas?

:grad:

Was there ever a time in history where there were 5 million legal bazookas held by the general public?  Apples - Oranges.  

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

Mass shooting averted

 

Great you’re 1 for 17 or whatever. I mean the guys courage and skill is amazing. Wonderful more people weren’t killed. But....the numbers are.... bad. 

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2 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

Great you’re 1 for 17 or whatever. I mean the guys courage and skill is amazing. Wonderful more people weren’t killed. But....the numbers are.... bad. 

Wat?   I'm 0 for 0.

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3 minutes ago, Choke said:

As if they couldnt have machine guns. Dont be silly.

Wat?  Who could have had machine guns?

Just now, Choke said:

So start the change.

Zero reason not to... and your excuse is just that.

Start what change?  You ok?

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5 minutes ago, Choke said:

Every single one (assaults style) you can remove from the system can save lives.

Over time, you make a massive change.

 

It appears as if you just "love guns" too much. Nothing more or less.

I don't even own a gun.  I'm just being realistic.

How do you propose taking 5 million guns off the street?  Even if you had a plan, you don't, but even if you did it will never happen.  Beto is the only Democrat that came out and said he wanted to take guns, guess what?  He wasn't in the race much longer after that.  Think about that for a minute.

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23 hours ago, The General said:

Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.

 

John 11:35.

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2 minutes ago, Choke said:

Sounds like "ITS TOO HARD TO TRY".

That is easy to reject.  As every single one removed can make a massive difference.

And ftr, the stigma of being a flat out criminal would alleviate a ton more.

You can try and flap your arms too, but, you aren’t ever going to fly around the room. 

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3 hours ago, Jackstraw said:

Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

It really is bizarre and sad.

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25 minutes ago, Choke said:

So lets try. If it saves lives, terrific.

  • Estimated 5-10 million already in the U.S. Some say as many as 20.
  • There are only 640,00 full-auto machine guns in circulation in America because of the ban, so thats already terrific.
  • Every year around 1.5 million new hit American circulation that will NOT land.  AWESOME!

Just the "new" would be a massive improvement. And save American lives.  So "flying around the room" would absolutely happen. Your beliefs are not the discussion.

Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting. 

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13 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting. 

80% lowers for $165.   This cat is never going back in the bag. 

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3 minutes ago, Choke said:

That was from manufacturers.

And assuredly we get some machine-guns here illegally too.

Finish your 3 guns you just bought for $165. 

Quote

 

Each AMT jig kit is made from American made steel and is reusable and can finish dozens of AMT AR-10 or AR-15 80 lower receivers.

Each jig kit includes side plates, nesting plate (used for locating and holding drill plate and end mill plates), 1 – 3/8 drill plate, 1 – 3/8 end mill plate, 1 – 3/8 end mill plate, 1 – 5/16 end mill plate,  4 – set screws, 2 – allen wrenches.

Each jig kit comes with instructions on how to finish your AMT 80 lower. Please note: our 80 Lower Receiver Jig does not come with the
High End Tooling Kit required for finishing

 

 

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Just now, Choke said:

Only because people like you are trying not to allow it.

How exactly is one trying to not allow it? 

It's as if you think I can wave a magic wand and pass laws. 

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1 minute ago, Choke said:

Pushing the "Its too hard, it wont work" propaganda.

That's not allowing it? That's a rather low bar. 

Is there any distinction between having an online conversation vs not allowing it? 

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