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randall146

USA Shootings

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2 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I haven't read this whole article, but I wonder if anything said could make people that are adamant about guns change their minds.

In Australia the homicide rate has fallen 20% since tougher restrictions were put in place.  And as more guns are weeded out, that percentage seems to be getting closer to 25%.

My questions for all the advocates would be, "if you banned some semi-automatic, self-loading rifles and shotguns, and imposed stricter licensing and registration requirements (similar to what was done in Australia), and this led to a 20%-25% reduction in homicides, do you think this is worth it".

 

Except, there are more guns Australia today than there were when they put the restrictions in place.  The number of guns coming into Australia has been increasing every year.  

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38 minutes ago, Megaton said:

Except, there are more guns Australia today than there were when they put the restrictions in place.  The number of guns coming into Australia has been increasing every year.  

Interesting, do you have a link on that?  I know that all pieces of the "gun ban" haven't actually been enforced and some of the laws have become more relaxed in various Aussie States.

Also I saw the US has 101 guns per 100 citizens, double the next closest country.

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2 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It doesn’t make sense to you?  Intent is what makes them different. The result of death may be the same but the intent is different and therefore they should be handled differently.

Are you saying that any action done that results in a death should be handled the same?

In a dui vs. shooting?  No i don't.  Driving drunk is reckless and at this point everyone knows the possible result.  Pain inflicted on a victim is every bit as painful a  death as a gun shot.  The effect on the family is every bit as devastating as a shooting. 

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17 minutes ago, Hot Diggity Dog said:

In a dui vs. shooting?  No i don't.  Driving drunk is reckless and at this point everyone knows the possible result.  Pain inflicted on a victim is every bit as painful a  death as a gun shot.  The effect on the family is every bit as devastating as a shooting. 

Texting and driving is just as reckless. Same punishment for them as someone who murders some students with a gun?

Edited by Hawkeye21

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1 hour ago, Megaton said:

The funny thing is, after the big Port Arthur massacre, Australia did pass some tougher gun laws and hundreds of thousands of people turned in their guns, however there are more guns in Australia today than there ever were before.  So what does that really prove?  Yes, the percentage of households in Australia has declined significantly, but a similar decline has occurred in the US.  

Why is number of guns a metric here? The US has 4 times the number of guns per capita of Australia, as per @Ilov80s link.

From your article:

Quote

These days, dedicated gun-crime taskforces target armed career criminals; firearm-related prosecutions have soared; police launch "nationwide blitzes" on gun owners' homes and seize thousands of firearms; lethal weapons are removed from violence-prone or suicide-risk households; and actual sanctions are imposed on shooters who ignore safe storage regulations.

All this adds up to a new generation of police and political awareness.

But perhaps the most profound change has been in public attitude. At this 20th anniversary of the Port Arthur massacre, we've seen in media coverage a resurgence of public scepticism about the motives of self-interested groups seeking to wind back gun laws.

Seems like a hottible outcome and nothing that the US should strive for....

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Texting and driving is just as wreckless. Same punishment for them as someone who murders some students with a gun?

It certainly is not.

*reckless, maybe

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33 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Texting and driving is just as reckless. Same punishment for them as someone who murders some students with a gun?

If it could be proven you were carrying on a long texting conversation or its done habitually? Yeah, there's not even an excuse or being under the influence of a drug and not being able to exercise normal judgement. Again the result is the same as an angry person killing random people on the street with a gun. 

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48 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Texting and driving is just as reckless. Same punishment for them as someone who murders some students with a gun?

I disagree with the states making laws against texting and driving.  Yes, some people die because of careless drivers that text.  Should we ban all cell phones with texting ability?  Should we remove all vehicles from the road?

 

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

some people would argue they're not important at all and in fact freedom of speech (being a white supremacist or a nazi or hating muslims) shouldn't be allowed at all

perspective randall146 - you obviously are anti-gun but I bet you are 100% in favor of people saving your life and protecting you and your family and your property with guns if something bad happens right? 

guns are good - they deter crime, they stop crime, they are a tool police and military and citizens use almost every second of the day to stop the bad guys. Don't forget that

I'm ok with police and the military having guns

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

some people would argue they're not important at all and in fact freedom of speech (being a white supremacist or a nazi or hating muslims) shouldn't be allowed at all

Agreed.  But my response wouldn't be "Yeah but First Amendment"

Again, the First Amendment protects free speech and the Second Amendment protects guns.  But neither is a reason in favor of unregulated speech or guns

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

So here's an interesting example of how ingrained the pro- and anti-gun control sides are.  You see the above stats as demonstrating the need for guns, I see them as demonstrating the need for reducing guns

As an aside, I'd like to look into where they get those numbers from.  Anecdotally, I would have thought gun murders are a much higher percentage, while I am absolutely sure the robbery number should be much lower.  In my job I encounter a lot of bank robbery cases, and they almost never involve guns - they are usually just demand notes passed over the counter.  And we just don't see very many gun street robberies ("muggings") in general

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

some people would argue they're not important at all and in fact freedom of speech (being a white supremacist or a nazi or hating muslims) shouldn't be allowed at all

perspective randall146 - you obviously are anti-gun but I bet you are 100% in favor of people saving your life and protecting you and your family and your property with guns if something bad happens right? 

guns are good - they deter crime, they stop crime, they are a tool police and military and citizens use almost every second of the day to stop the bad guys. Don't forget that

Weird how the rest of the world’s western democracies survive without gun ownership.  Even weirder how they have exponentially lower murder rates too.  

 

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On 1/27/2018 at 7:50 AM, Stealthycat said:

Mookie what would you do ?

Right now, today, I grant you God Power. You have the ability to write and forge US gun laws and enact them - what will they be? 

As an idealist with "God Power", I have no problem with a repeal of the 2nd Amendment and a buy back, at least as it relates to handguns and semi-autos - Let the hunters keep their shotguns and rifles with some type of licensing program.  You'd also have to beef up possession laws with mandatory minimums and a grace period for the buyback.  After a certain date, if you are in possession of a prohibited weapon, you are committing a felony.  It's a pretty simple enforcement scheme, and we can relax drug laws to help with space issues in jails/prisons.  The 2nd Amendment is an outdated relic from a time when we were legitimately scared of governmental power and invading armies - Don't give me that Obama is coming for my little white babies, Ammon Bundy "what about our liberties crap.  We are the most free nation on earth.  

As a realist and sensing that there are many who would be upset with my use of my "God Power" in this manner, I would initiate a discussion about legislation that would prohibit bump stocks and any other machine gun type retrofits - Legislation most, even the NRA, are in agreement upon.  I would initiate a discussion about tightening gun restrictions for persons who have been hospitalized for mental health reasons in the past 5 years.  I would strengthen laws that already prohibit felons or domestic abusers in possession of firearms, and include mandatory minimums. 

So now that I've wasting my time typing that out and you (maybe) reading it, what was the point in writing it?  Nothing is going to happen.  Nothing is going to be discussed.  We will keep wringing our hands whenever some kid shoots his little sister, or some deranged psychopath shoots people like fish in a barrel, saying how tragic and sad the whole affair was.  I would've been better off fixing that loose door latch or painting the bathroom.  At least something would have gotten done.   

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5 hours ago, randall146 said:

I'm ok with police and the military having guns

OMG why? Have you not watched the news and see how distrustful the public is of police? and you TRUST them ? 

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Regarding registration, seems to me that if this country ever needed a well regulated Militia (being necessary to the security of a free State), then the derivable information that would be inherit to a registry, at any level of data granularity, would be really really freaking useful. If law abiding citizens ever needed form a well regulated Militia to fight enemies of a free state, an inventory of the pool of available weapons would be essential to any chance of success. Unless of course the enemy takes the form of a tyrannical United States government in which case the 2nd Amendment isn't going to be worth the paper its written on. 

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8 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I just googled and it said 21,000 firearm suicides per year.  Seems like a significant number.

21,000 out of 180 million homes ............. that's not a lot , 1.1% if I did the math, assuming 180 million homes own guns, might be 200 or 220 million and how many of those owned the guns vs taking/stealing them etc?

Suicides are tragic, people do it with nooses, drugs, drowning, guns ...... its a damn shame 

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

Seriously? You don’t think that if law enforcement knew the owner of every gun in America, it wouldn’t help them fight crime? 

I am dead serious - how would it fight crime ?

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7 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Texting and driving is just as reckless. Same punishment for them as someone who murders some students with a gun?

are they intentionally texting? 

yes - if you make texting and driving, putting on makeup and driving, things like that as severe as drinking and driving? it'd help

but using the anti-gun thought process, we need to pass something that affects 99% of the people who DO NOT text and drive .... like their texting won't work when they're in a car or something like that

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

I am dead serious - how would it fight crime ?

I agree here. A registry would be of limited use for law enforcement. But it would be essential to the formation of a well regulated Militia (see above).

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6 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I disagree with the states making laws against texting and driving.  Yes, some people die because of careless drivers that text.  Should we ban all cell phones with texting ability?  Should we remove all vehicles from the road?

exactly - that's the mentality of anti-gunners

how about this - you ready? Its radical ........... don't do dumb stuff and hit someone else. There - one law. Make the punishment HARD too, just like DUI. People wouldn't text and drive, eat and drive, read a paper and drive, sex and drive, makeup and drive etc. The penalties just aint worth it IF they're severe. 

Done - 

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Just now, kwille said:

I agree here. A registry would be of limited use for law enforcement. But it would be essential to the formation of a well regulated Militia (see above).

I'll compromise - I'll register 1 gun

deal ?  :)

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

I'll compromise - I'll register 1 gun

deal ?  :)

Sure, but your well regulated Militia is gonna suck. BTW, I'm not anti gun but I am pro reason. 

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5 hours ago, randall146 said:

So here's an interesting example of how ingrained the pro- and anti-gun control sides are.  You see the above stats as demonstrating the need for guns, I see them as demonstrating the need for reducing guns

As an aside, I'd like to look into where they get those numbers from.  Anecdotally, I would have thought gun murders are a much higher percentage, while I am absolutely sure the robbery number should be much lower.  In my job I encounter a lot of bank robbery cases, and they almost never involve guns - they are usually just demand notes passed over the counter.  And we just don't see very many gun street robberies ("muggings") in general

if I don't have a gun, how can I protect myself from all the evil in the world? ask nicely ? 

google - I google and take the numbers from the first hits I get. I don't data mine and try to find stats that match what I want. 

pass a note and get money? why the hell would a teller give money just because there is a note? 

 

on muggings .......... where are the stats on that ?

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4 hours ago, zoonation said:

Weird how the rest of the world’s western democracies survive without gun ownership.  Even weirder how they have exponentially lower murder rates too.  

 

there are lots of differences in the US and other countries ..........they have lots of crimes, they have different judicial systems, they have a lot of differences that impacts rates and such don't you think ? 

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1 hour ago, Mookie said:

I have no problem with a repeal of the 2nd Amendment and a buy back, at least as it relates to handguns and semi-autos - Let the hunters keep their shotguns and rifles with some type of licensing program.  You'd also have to beef up possession laws with mandatory minimums and a grace period for the buyback.  After a certain date, if you are in possession of a prohibited weapon, you are committing a felony.  It's a pretty simple enforcement scheme, and we can relax drug laws to help with space issues in jails/prisons.  The 2nd Amendment is an outdated relic from a time when we were legitimately scared of governmental power and invading armies - Don't give me that Obama is coming for my little white babies, Ammon Bundy "what about our liberties crap.  We are the most free nation on earth.  

at least you're honest

1 hour ago, Mookie said:

So now that I've wasting my time typing that out and you (maybe) reading it, what was the point in writing it?  Nothing is going to happen.  Nothing is going to be discussed.  We will keep wringing our hands whenever some kid shoots his little sister, or some deranged psychopath shoots people like fish in a barrel, saying how tragic and sad the whole affair was.  I would've been better off fixing that loose door latch or painting the bathroom.  At least something would have gotten done.   

things SHOULD be done

  1. arm schools
  2. super hard punishments
  3. carry permits nationwide (and those can be registered, I'm ok with that)
  4. way better system for background checking

 

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

if I don't have a gun, how can I protect myself from all the evil in the world? ask nicely ?

I don't have a gun and I've avoided most of the evil.  And I haven't risked accidentally shooting someone, or shooting myself in a depressive state, or my kids playing with a gun, or me shooting some innocuous person because I was hypervigilantly looking for incoming evil.

 

1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

pass a note and get money? why the hell would a teller give money just because there is a note?

It's a business decision by the banks.  The tellers are trained to give robbers a few stacks of bills.  It avoids escalating the situation and endangering the tellers, customers, etc.  The robbers are there for $, not to hurt or even scare anyone.  Most bank robberies take less than a minute, and no one other than the teller even knows the robbery is happening.

As to the muggings - I don't have stats.  That's totally anecdotal from someone who is a defense attorney in one small part of the country.

Edited by randall146
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39 minutes ago, randall146 said:

I don't have a gun and I've avoided most of the evil.  And I haven't risked accidentally shooting someone, or shooting myself in a depressive state, or my kids playing with a gun, or me shooting some innocuous person because I was hypervigilantly looking for incoming evil.

I have shot guns all my life. I have never needed one since I got my CWP. I had a situation where I thought I might need it last winter, but I didn't have to use it.  I needed one once when I was in college when I truly believe a man was trying to stalk/kill me. 

My home has guns, loaded and ready to use guns. I haven't risked accidentally shooting someone, or shooting myself in a depressive state, or my kids playing with a gun, or me shooting some innocuous person because I was hypervigilantly looking for incoming evil.

99.9% of gun owners don't have that problem either. Aint that something? 

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42 minutes ago, randall146 said:

It's a business decision by the banks.  The tellers are trained to give robbers a few stacks of bills.  It avoids escalating the situation and endangering the tellers, customers, etc.  The robbers are there for $, not to hurt or even scare anyone.  Most bank robberies take less than a minute, and no one other than the teller even knows the robbery is happening.

As to the muggings - I don't have stats.  That's totally anecdotal from someone who is a defense attorney in one small part of the country.

 

so ya'll just give money to people who demand it? I'm surprised that even called a robbery .... in fact, I wonder if I slipped a note that said " I want you to give me all the money in your drawer" and the teller complied .......... is that a crime? I didn't threaten anyone. I simply asked. 

but if someone comes to my home or jerks my car door open or in a dark alley or street demanding me give them what I have hard earned? they can see my gun barrel and decide if they want to pursue that or not I guess. 

I have never understood giving criminals exactly what they want - is there a list of things you'd give criminals willingly and things you'd fight for? Or would you just yield whatever is demanded and not fight back for anything or ???

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9 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I disagree with the states making laws against texting and driving.  Yes, some people die because of careless drivers that text.  Should we ban all cell phones with texting ability?  Should we remove all vehicles from the road?

 

That was kind of my point. There should be different consequences for different occurrences. Some are accidents, some are from very poor decisions and some are premeditated.   They all can have the same result but they do not all deserve the same punishment. 

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22 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

 

so ya'll just give money to people who demand it? I'm surprised that even called a robbery .... in fact, I wonder if I slipped a note that said " I want you to give me all the money in your drawer" and the teller complied .......... is that a crime? I didn't threaten anyone. I simply asked. 

but if someone comes to my home or jerks my car door open or in a dark alley or street demanding me give them what I have hard earned? they can see my gun barrel and decide if they want to pursue that or not I guess. 

I have never understood giving criminals exactly what they want - is there a list of things you'd give criminals willingly and things you'd fight for? Or would you just yield whatever is demanded and not fight back for anything or ???

I own guns and have shot them all my life but man do you raise some terrible points sometimes. 

You have to understand weighing the consequences of a bank robbery, right?  If a guy passes a note saying he has a gun would it be better to just give him the money or pull a gun on him?  Which one would threaten more lives?

Who has done more research on safety, you or the banks?

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

21,000 out of 180 million homes ............. that's not a lot , 1.1% if I did the math, assuming 180 million homes own guns, might be 200 or 220 million and how many of those owned the guns vs taking/stealing them etc?

Suicides are tragic, people do it with nooses, drugs, drowning, guns ...... its a damn shame 

Studies have shown that reducing the availability of guns in a home reduces the likelihood of suicide.

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5 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I own guns and have shot them all my life but man do you raise some terrible points sometimes. 

You have to understand weighing the consequences of a bank robbery, right?  If a guy passes a note saying he has a gun would it be better to just give him the money or pull a gun on him?  Which one would threaten more lives?

Who has done more research on safety, you or the banks?

Also, is the money insured?

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11 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I own guns and have shot them all my life but man do you raise some terrible points sometimes. 

You have to understand weighing the consequences of a bank robbery, right?  If a guy passes a note saying he has a gun would it be better to just give him the money or pull a gun on him?  Which one would threaten more lives?

Who has done more research on safety, you or the banks?

randall146 says they don't use guns to rob banks though ..... sure there is a safety factor but you could say that anytime a criminal demands something of you right?

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11 hours ago, ChopMeat said:

Studies have shown that reducing the availability of guns in a home reduces the likelihood of suicide.

the problem isn't the way the person chooses to kill themselves 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

randall146 says they don't use guns to rob banks though ..... sure there is a safety factor but you could say that anytime a criminal demands something of you right?

I believe that he's right.  It wouldn't surprise me that most robbery attempts are done with a fake gun, a knife or they say the have a gun on them even though they don't.  It's not worth the risk for a bank to see if that robber actually has a gun or not.  Just hand over some money and let him get caught later.  There are plenty of cameras there to help identify them.

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

I believe that he's right.  It wouldn't surprise me that most robbery attempts are done with a fake gun, a knife or they say the have a gun on them even though they don't.  It's not worth the risk for a bank to see if that robber actually has a gun or not.  Just hand over some money and let him get caught later.  There are plenty of cameras there to help identify them.

do you extend that to other things as well ?

someone wants your car give it, they want your purse, give it. What lines are drawn in allowing criminals to dictate society ?

 

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

do you extend that to other things as well ?

someone wants your car give it, they want your purse, give it. What lines are drawn in allowing criminals to dictate society ?

 

Those are prime examples of having to weigh the consequences.  Let your car be stolen and have insurance help you get a new one or risk getting shot or stabbed.  People lose their purse or wallet all the time so having it stolen wouldn't be a big deal either, just cancel your cards and get a new license.

I'd rather give up my vehicle or wallet than risk getting killed or me killing another person.  If I killed someone because I didn't want to give up my vehicle I would hate that being on my conscience.  I would also hate all the attention I would receive and going through the legal process to prove that I was right in shooting him.  I know not everyone feels that way and they prefer to be the tough guy in those situations.

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12 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I have shot guns all my life. I have never needed one since I got my CWP. I had a situation where I thought I might need it last winter, but I didn't have to use it.  I needed one once when I was in college when I truly believe a man was trying to stalk/kill me. 

My home has guns, loaded and ready to use guns. I haven't risked accidentally shooting someone, or shooting myself in a depressive state, or my kids playing with a gun, or me shooting some innocuous person because I was hypervigilantly looking for incoming evil.

99.9% of gun owners don't have that problem either. Aint that something? 

If you have a gun in your house your risk of shotting yourself or someone else you know is by definition higher than if you didn't have one in the house.  

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12 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I have shot guns all my life. I have never needed one since I got my CWP. I had a situation where I thought I might need it last winter, but I didn't have to use it.  I needed one once when I was in college when I truly believe a man was trying to stalk/kill me. 

My home has guns, loaded and ready to use guns. I haven't risked accidentally shooting someone, or shooting myself in a depressive state, or my kids playing with a gun, or me shooting some innocuous person because I was hypervigilantly looking for incoming evil.

99.9% of gun owners don't have that problem either. Aint that something? 

You think 99.9% of gun owners don't shoot themselves or someone they know? Really?  Less than one in a thousand? 

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13 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I believe that he's right.  It wouldn't surprise me that most robbery attempts are done with a fake gun, a knife or they say the have a gun on them even though they don't.  It's not worth the risk for a bank to see if that robber actually has a gun or not.  Just hand over some money and let him get caught later.  There are plenty of cameras there to help identify them.

I'm only discussing bank robberies, but most modern bank robberies are completely unarmed, with just a note.  Sometimes the note will say "Give me the money or someone will get shot" but mostly they say things like "this is a robbery.  All 10's and 20s.  No dye packs" or "Give me $$ or else."  Usually they feature terrible spelling.

At least this is how it is in the Northeast, where most bank robberies are committed by opiate addicts.  It may be different in other parts of the country where I'd assume the robberies are fueled more by meth.  I will also acknowlege that bank robberies committed by non-drug addicts are more likely to involve weapons.  Weapon bank robberies also seem to get more money.  Note robberies is usually only in the $500-$2000 range. 

@Zow can you confirm?

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1 minute ago, randall146 said:

I'm only discussing bank robberies, but most modern bank robberies are completely unarmed, with just a note.  Sometimes the note will say "Give me the money or someone will get shot" but mostly they say things like "this is a robbery.  All 10's and 20s.  No dye packs" or "Give me $$ or else."  Usually they feature terrible spelling.

At least this is how it is in the Northeast, where most bank robberies are committed by opiate addicts.  It may be different in other parts of the country where I'd assume the robberies are fueled more by meth.  I will also acknowlege that bank robberies committed by non-drug addicts are more likely to involve weapons.  Weapon bank robberies also seem to get more money.  Note robberies is usually only in the $500-$2000 range. 

@Zow can you confirm?

What do you think would be better, giving the robber the money and letting him get caught by police or arming the tellers and having them shoot the robbers?  I can't imagine an insurance company would like tellers being armed.

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14 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Those are prime examples of having to weigh the consequences.  Let your car be stolen and have insurance help you get a new one or risk getting shot or stabbed.  People lose their purse or wallet all the time so having it stolen wouldn't be a big deal either, just cancel your cards and get a new license.

I'd rather give up my vehicle or wallet than risk getting killed or me killing another person.  If I killed someone because I didn't want to give up my vehicle I would hate that being on my conscience.  I would also hate all the attention I would receive and going through the legal process to prove that I was right in shooting him.  I know not everyone feels that way and they prefer to be the tough guy in those situations

and I would not give up those things - criminals will not dictate my life if I have anything to say about it

if I killed someone carjacking me, that would be bad but at the same time, the choice is the criminal to attack me, I'm just defending myself and my property. 

its not "tough guy" mentality, is being a prey animal and a victim. This is especially true for women, I wish all women carried handguns in their purses or on their body

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14 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Those are prime examples of having to weigh the consequences.  Let your car be stolen and have insurance help you get a new one or risk getting shot or stabbed.  People lose their purse or wallet all the time so having it stolen wouldn't be a big deal either, just cancel your cards and get a new license.

I'd rather give up my vehicle or wallet than risk getting killed or me killing another person.  If I killed someone because I didn't want to give up my vehicle I would hate that being on my conscience.  I would also hate all the attention I would receive and going through the legal process to prove that I was right in shooting him.  I know not everyone feels that way and they prefer to be the tough guy in those situations.

And not only weighing the consequences, but weighing the likelihood of the bad thing happening in the first place.  So why would I walk around armed all the time (presenting an increased risk to myself and those around me) when 1) the odds of me getting carjacked or robbed are extraordinarily low and 2) on the rare chance it happens, it is far more dangerous FOR ME to pull out a gun to fight for my property than simply giving up the property.

Again, thieves don't actually want to hurt you.  They just want the stuff.

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14 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

there are lots of differences in the US and other countries ..........they have lots of crimes, they have different judicial systems, they have a lot of differences that impacts rates and such don't you think ? 

that affects the number of murders caused by gun violence?  no, no I don't think.

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

What do you think would be better, giving the robber the money and letting him get caught by police or arming the tellers and having them shoot the robbers?  I can't imagine an insurance company would like tellers being armed.

That's correct.  I'm sure a bank's insurance rates would skyrocket if the tellers were armed, well beyond the cost of simply giving the robber money and letter the police do their job.

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Stealthycat - Do you get mad when your team punts or tries a field goal on 4th down?  Or do are you ok with it because it's the smarter long term play?

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