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Dr. Octopus

2019 New York Jets: Our GM can beat up your GM

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Hey everyone  @Kiddnets @mphtrilogy @TLEF316 @NYRAGE @rockaction @jwb @Ridcully @Sweet Love and others, sorry but I have to start up a new 2018 thread as the old one ( https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/764752-2018-new-york-jets-the-christian-hackenberg-era-begins/#comment-20856717 ) somehow got corrupted for me when using my laptop - not sure what happened. I'd appreciate it if we could use this one going forward.

I'm cautiously optimistic heading into 2018. Jets have a ton of cap space, some high draft picks and for better or worse stability at HC and GM positions.

 

A History of thread Titles:

The Christian Hackenberg Era Begins

Jets Flirting with a Cousins

Jet fan feels a disturbance in the Force as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror that the team signed Sam Bradford

Austin, .....wait.

Jets still have $90MM left in their "Rainy Day Fund"

Jets' fans look at the Cleveland Browns with envy

Te- Te- Te- Teddy and the Jets

Big Mac Super Sizes Jets' Draft Pick, While Hoping The Browns Be The Browns

Mac and Bowles Trying to Decide Which Young QB They Want to Ruin

Jets @ Detroit in Week 1 on Monday Night while the Nation watches THE VOICE

Jets Take Circuitous and Fortuitous Route in Sucking For Sam

Hackenberg Heading To The Black Hole (Which Coincidently Is Also The Nickname For His Football IQ)

Darnold Turns 21...Reads Up On Jets' History...Heads Out To Buy Some Alcohol

Snoopy Bowl Time!....It's Not a Hip-Hop Slang Term for Smoking Ganja

"And then downtown boys, they sure talk gritty It's so hard to be a saint in the city"

Darnold gets his only career interception out of the way early

Josh Gordon Fakes Drug Relapse So That He Doesn't Have to Face New Jack City

After Loss to the Browns, Jets Petition Goodell to Add Rutgers to Their Schedule

The Good News Is The Jets Are Tied With The Pats After 3 Weeks, The Bad News Is...

Doug Marrone (Worse Than Hitler)

After Careful Consideration The Jets Decide Not To Release Darnold

Doug Marrone Meet Karma, She's A #####

 Bears, Beets and Battlestar Gallactica

Jets Taking Their (Lack Of) Talents to South Beach

Jets To Dress Their WRs in Bills Jerseys This Sunday To Help Darnold Find Them Easier

Move over Brady versus Rodgers, we have McCown versus Barkley at Metlife this wee

Bowles Using The Bye Week To Update His Resume

Jets saving Darnold for the more important games later in the year.

#### this ####

When the pressure is off late in the season, you can count on the Jets to win meaningless games

What is this strange feeling? It is, hope.

Who Will Cook the Dinner?

It's All 'Bout the Gase, 'Bout the Gase, no MattRhule

Gase has his Eyes on the Prize

Will Le'Veon Bell Don the Green and White Again?

Leaving only Bell of lightning and its thunder

Mac secretly releived he can not possibly mess up the Jets' second round pick this year

All Your Williams Are Belong to Us

Welcome to Jimmy Sexton's World

Edited by Dr. Octopus

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The biggest issue facing the New York Jets of course is what will they do at QB. I'm going to re-post my thoughts on that with some updates as a way to get the discussion going,

My preference in order:

1. Draft a QB - My two favorite QBs are Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield. I would not be upset if they moved up to get A QB, but this team needs to add a lot of talent and I would not want the cost to be prohibitive to building a team. Depending on where Cousins ends up, I actually think they can stay put and land Mayfield. I'm starting to fall for him. He has accuracy, mobility and a strong arm. I think his demeanor and leadership would be just what this team needs. He is not without risk of course, but I say "roll that dice". If they go this route I'm fine with bringing back McCown as a mentor/bridge QB. Heck they could even let him start the season and continue to play if they are winning.

2. Kirk Cousins - Personally I think he's plenty good enough to win a Super Bowl provided he has a team around him. Is he "elite"? I don't think so, but he's capable of being a top 10 option for the next 3-6 years. This seems a lot more realistic now that we know he will hit free agency. While he will cost a lot against the cap, the team would still have enough cap space to bring in some o-line help and perhaps even a WR like Allen Robinson or Sammy Watkins. It will also allow them to take the BPA at 6 and with their two second round picks. They could take a flier on a mid-round QB and have Petty and Hack battle it out for the backup role with the rookie. Cousins has been durable so backup QB is not a huge priority, but maybe add a cheap veteran as well to the mix.

3. Teddy Bridgewater and early/mid round rookie - I'm a fan of Teddy and have compared him to Chad Pennington from the beginning. I can't say I totally trust him after the injury, but if he checks out and comes at a reasonable price, I can swallow letting him lead the way and see what happens. Hopefully they could finally strike gold with a project type QB waiting in the wings should Teddy falter .

I am not a fan of any other option to be honest. Please do not bring in a past his prime Eli Manning or Jay Cutler, a journeyman coming off a career year like Case Keenum, a uninspiring retread like Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Tannehill or Sam Bradford or a journeyman bum like Brian Hoyer or Blaine Gabbert hoping to once again strike gold ala Fitzmagic or McCown. 

Edited by Dr. Octopus

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Ill paste my last 2 posts on this thread

 

trying to be fully objective - these are the QBs that I view as better/I'd rather have than Cosuins

1.  Brady* - 1-2 yrs though

2. Rodgers

3.  Brees - 1-2 yrs though

4.  Wilson

5.  Rivers 1-2 yrs

6. Ben - 1-2 yrs

7.  Cam

8.  Wentz

9.  Stafford

There is a group I'd rate same level or pretty close to Cousins:  

1.  Alex Smith 

2.  carr

3.  Matt Ryan

Finally a group of young qBs with a lot of upside who I'd probably want over Cousins but its close

1.  D Watson

2.  Mariotta

3.  Winston

4.  Goff

5.  Jimmy G

 

So looking at it this way you definitely can make a case for Cousins anywhere from 10-17....but keep in mind 4 of those are close to the end of the road so now we are talking 8-13 unless others step up....I'll take that in a heartbeat...even if they have to overpay.  With $100M to play with why not finally get a solid QB....it's hamstrung the team for 15+ yrs...with that chip in place and still $ and prime draft picks they would be in as good or better shape than Denver iMO if Kirk looked at the 2 situations objectively

 

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NFL Network's Ian Rapoport seconded an ESPN New York report that the Jets are "willing to pay a lot of money to Kirk Cousins, maybe more than anyone else."

Rapsheet also noted the Jets hired Jeremy Bates as offensive coordinator; Bates' system is similar to what Cousins ran in Washington. When discussing the Jets' competition for Cousins, Rapsheet first mentioned the Broncos, whom he expects to "go all in on a free agent quarterback." Rapsheet said the Cardinals are "in the mix as well," and to "keep an eye" on the Vikings.

 

 

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  11 hours ago, fruity pebbles said:

Any way Cousins doesn’t get 30 million a year?

not only is he going to get $30M but now reading they may front load it as high as $60M in 1st yr to blow away everyone but Cleveland - while it would open up a lot of cap room next year I think that is going overboard as they need to fill a lot of holes.  

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Just now, Kiddnets said:

So looking at it this way you definitely can make a case for Cousins anywhere from 10-17....but keep in mind 4 of those are close to the end of the road so now we are talking 8-13 unless others step up....I'll take that in a heartbeat...even if they have to overpay.  With $100M to play with why not finally get a solid QB....it's hamstrung the team for 15+ yrs...with that chip in place and still $ and prime draft picks they would be in as good or better shape than Denver iMO if Kirk looked at the 2 situations objectively

 

For the reasons you listed in the other thread I am starting to come around on Cousins as the top option. It would give us great flexibility for the draft and finally give us a QB to believe in.

I know he was basically a .500 QB in Washington but there's a lot of factors that go into that and while the Jets are far from a model front office I do thing they are better run than the Skins. 

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1 minute ago, Kiddnets said:

  11 hours ago, fruity pebbles said:

Any way Cousins doesn’t get 30 million a year?

not only is he going to get $30M but now reading they may front load it as high as $60M in 1st yr to blow away everyone but Cleveland - while it would open up a lot of cap room next year I think that is going overboard as they need to fill a lot of holes.  

I'm not believing those reports necessarily. Using up 60% of their cap space doesn't seem like the best idea - they do have other holes to fill and Cousins should want them to use that money to improve their o-line and maybe even bring in a quality WR.

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According to SNY's Ralph Vacchiano, free agent TE Austin Seferian-Jenkins recently turned down a two-year, $8 million offer from the Jets.

Per Vacchiano, the offer was "short on guarantees." Despite this, Vacchiano expects the two sides to eventually "talk again and work something out." Seferian-Jenkins set career-highs in catches (50) and receiving yards (357) this past season and is still just 25. A reunion makes sense for both sides.

 

While $4MM a year may be a slight low-ball offer, what does this guy really think he's getting on the market?

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

For the reasons you listed in the other thread I am starting to come around on Cousins as the top option. It would give us great flexibility for the draft and finally give us a QB to believe in.

I know he was basically a .500 QB in Washington but there's a lot of factors that go into that and while the Jets are far from a model front office I do thing they are better run than the Skins. 

From recent history we know the Jets have not been able to develop a rookie QB since arguably Pennington: Sanchez, Geno, Petty, Hack....we do know they have had success in plugging in a developed vet: Vinny, Favre, Fitz, McCown

they run a system that has worked with Cousins - have a base as good as he had in Washington with cap space and picks to improve even more.....I see it as a very good fit for both - as long as they dont get desperate.  

Lastly as an extra bonus it keeps Bowles on the hot seat - if he has to develop a rookie QB (which I have zero faith in him doing) - it almost guarantees him an extra year where if he doesnt improve as a coach nd cant make the playoffs with Cosuins it's time to turn the page.  

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

While $4MM a year may be a slight low-ball offer, what does this guy really think he's getting on the market?

Obviously more than that, or he's looking for a longer deal. He (or perhaps his agent) could be wrong.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

While $4MM a year may be a slight low-ball offer, what does this guy really think he's getting on the market?

ASJ is way more hype than substance - good story on how he turned his life around but he just didnt deliver....bad calls or not he dropped multiple TDs and was completely shut down and couldnt get open the last half of the season....2 yrs $8M seems pretty fair - if its about guarantees I'd probabyl cover half....maybe even go up to $10M for 2 yrs on potential but thats it...let him walk....the backups played pretty well last game or 2 and it wouldnt be a huge loss. 

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Just now, msommer said:

Obviously more than that, or he's looking for a longer deal. He (or perhaps his agent) could be wrong.

 

Sure - but last season was the first one where he showed any glimmer of living up to his talent and even with that he didn't put up anything special on the stat sheets. I would love to bring him back and watch him grow into something but he should also know he still has a lot to prove.

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

Sure - but last season was the first one where he showed any glimmer of living up to his talent and even with that he didn't put up anything special on the stat sheets. I would love to bring him back and watch him grow into something but he should also know he still has a lot to prove.

No doubt - and part of what he has to prove is that he knows how to block ;) 

I think he is getting bad advice from his agent. We'll see

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If i were the Jets, I’d go all in on Cousins. He’s arguably a top 10 QB. Add in the 6th pick and a bunch more money in free agency and they would immediately be the 2nd best team in the division imo. 

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3 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

If i were the Jets, I’d go all in on Cousins. He’s arguably a top 10 QB. Add in the 6th pick and a bunch more money in free agency and they would immediately be the 2nd best team in the division imo. 

How do they convince Cousins that they are a contender like Minnesota? 

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1 minute ago, msommer said:

How do they convince Cousins that they are a contender like Minnesota? 

The AFC is a lot more wide open than the NFC - right now at least. The Jets have some good young talent in place, $90+MM in cap space, the 1.06 and two seconds to continue to build up their roster. If they has Cousins last season they probably win at least three more games. McCown mostly played well enough but directly cost them two games and Petty was atrocious. Are they as good as Minnesota? No, but they could get close and beating out NE, Pitt and Jax (and mediocrity after that) is an easier path than in what looks like a stacked NFC.

I think he could be talked into it, especially if they are throwing a ton of money his way. There's also a lot more money to be made in endorsement deals if he's able to star in New York.

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The New York Post's Brian Costello was told the Jets could offer Kirk Cousins $60 million in the first year of his contract.

New York is reportedly "willing to pay whatever it takes" to land Cousins, so this does not come as a surprise. It also makes some sense for the Jets, who have the cap space to both front-load the contract and make moves to improve the rest of the roster. The Broncos, Vikings, and Cardinals are also teams to watch in the Cousins sweepstakes.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

If i were the Jets, I’d go all in on Cousins. He’s arguably a top 10 QB. Add in the 6th pick and a bunch more money in free agency and they would immediately be the 2nd best team in the division imo. 

I had posted yesterday that I'd rather draft a rookie over Cousins, but the more I think about it, getting someone like Cousins is a pretty sure thing - much surer than a rookie qb. While I'd love to finally draft a rookie and have him be that top-3 superstar for the next decade-plus, it simply doesn't happen very often, even with the consensus top picks. Winston / Mariota / Goff / etc are seemingly going to be scattered in that "top 12" category rather than that upper tier Brady/Brees/Rogers level. Wentz looked special this year, of course, but his team did win the SB without him too.

So Cousins, #6 pick for the O-line, use one of the seconds on a RB... that could be something.   

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3 minutes ago, jwb said:

I had posted yesterday that I'd rather draft a rookie over Cousins, but the more I think about it, getting someone like Cousins is a pretty sure thing - much surer than a rookie qb.

That was my position as well but the more I think on it, winning 5 games last season put them in a bad place. If they stick at 6, they (theoretically) could be choosing between the 4th and 5th best QB or they would need to give up a lot of assets they need to move up to at least pick 3.

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9 minutes ago, jwb said:

I had posted yesterday that I'd rather draft a rookie over Cousins, but the more I think about it, getting someone like Cousins is a pretty sure thing - much surer than a rookie qb. While I'd love to finally draft a rookie and have him be that top-3 superstar for the next decade-plus, it simply doesn't happen very often, even with the consensus top picks. Winston / Mariota / Goff / etc are seemingly going to be scattered in that "top 12" category rather than that upper tier Brady/Brees/Rogers level. Wentz looked special this year, of course, but his team did win the SB without him too.

So Cousins, #6 pick for the O-line, use one of the seconds on a RB... that could be something.   

Think I’d sign Cousins, draft Barkley at 6 if he’s there and use the two 2nds on the oline.

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

That was my position as well but the more I think on it, winning 5 games last season put them in a bad place. If they stick at 6, they (theoretically) could be choosing between the 4th and 5th best QB or they would need to give up a lot of assets they need to move up to at least pick 3.

Yea, I would much rather them have a top-2 pick. Then it's not really a discussion. It looks like 3 qb's will go high, along with Barkley. So yes, 6 is not a great place.  

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2 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

Think I’d sign Cousins, draft Barkley at 6 if he’s there and use the two 2nds on the oline.

Yes, if you sign Cousins, you take Barkley at 6. I'm assuming he doesn't get by Cleveland's two top 5 picks. 

Edited by jwb
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45 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

The AFC is a lot more wide open than the NFC - right now at least. The Jets have some good young talent in place, $90+MM in cap space, the 1.06 and two seconds to continue to build up their roster. If they has Cousins last season they probably win at least three more games. McCown mostly played well enough but directly cost them two games and Petty was atrocious. Are they as good as Minnesota? No, but they could get close and beating out NE, Pitt and Jax (and mediocrity after that) is an easier path than in what looks like a stacked NFC.

I think he could be talked into it, especially if they are throwing a ton of money his way. There's also a lot more money to be made in endorsement deals if he's able to star in New York.

Sun is setting on NE and Pittsburgh....Jets are positioning themselves to be right in the mix....solid base....lots of cash and picks...NY market and lifetime benefits if he ever won a Super Bowl for the Jets ala Broadway Joe....much easier path to Super Bowl then NFC....plus more $ up front...keep in mind Min has just enough to add him now but have a lot of young expirings coming up next year that they will need to find big $....if they go all in on Cousins they will not be able to sign some solid players.  Denver also can make moves to get him as well but that would require cutting solid players like Anderson and Talib while not having any $ to add FAs....

Jets offer best of all worlds - great market -  solid base with path to winning, most $, still lots of $ for FA rather than cut players to add and good draft picks.....tough to beat that combo.  

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12 minutes ago, jwb said:

Yes, if you sign Cousins, you take Barkley at 6. I'm assuming he doesn't get by Cleveland's two top 5 picks. 

I would LOVE to add Barkley to Cousins - would be a dream offseason....but its not happening...Barkley is getting drafted before #6 and I wouldnt trade needed assets to move up to get him.  If they and Cousins I hope a QB is there for a bidding war and they trade down for a bounty - then go OL heavy

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I think Cousins "would" go to Minn or Jax if they had $180Mill guaranteed to throw at him with $40Mill+ for this year, but I don't think they do unless they make some serious cuts .. that leaves just a  few teams in the true mix unless Cousins wants to take a significant paycut.  Since JG set the market @ $28M that should be the true floor but KC will command closer to $30-$33mill per year IMHO.  Here are some cap #'s without the upcoming cap casualties for these teams (for the Jets Wilk and Forte are goners and maybe Skrine, putting their # close to $100M)

From overthecap.com

Browns $110,113,737

Jets $73,196,618

Vikings $49,053,643

Bills $29,578,581

Broncos $26,848,245

Cardinals $22,159,438

Jaguars $16,902,319

 

If he decides to go elsewhere, I would like to move up to #3 with IND, hopefully that doesn't cost a ton.. I cannot stomach another season of McCown.

 

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As an aside, how sad is it that this team has a QB they drafted in Round 2 just two short offseasons ago and he's a complete afterthought? He does not even get mentioned as a possible option moving forward.

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Thanks for the mention. I'd be curious to see what Bridgewater can do.  He strikes me as a guy whose sole liability is his former injury. His teammates sure believed in him before he went down. You could see how crushed they were that year he did go down. That he couldn't beat out Keenum is a testament to Keenum's ability last year to seemingly escape every bad situation he was in. He missed a bunch of throws, but MN stuck with him. 

If you go Bridgewater and a mid-round first for a QB, you still have cap space and two picks in the second to improve elsewhere. 

This is contingent on not signing Cousins, BTW.  

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

As an aside, how sad is it that this team has a QB they drafted in Round 2 just two short offseasons ago and he's a complete afterthought? He does not even get mentioned as a possible option moving forward.

Maccagnan has drafted two utter busts in the second so far and had L. Williams fall to him because of the Redskins' organizational incompetence. 

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

As an aside, how sad is it that this team has a QB they drafted in Round 2 just two short offseasons ago and he's a complete afterthought? He does not even get mentioned as a possible option moving forward.

honestly it's disgraceful and a big reason why I dont want Mac/Bowles drafting and developing another young QB.......they have 1 more shot at this and Cousins is the best way to save the team from their own short comings.  

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29 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Thanks for the mention. I'd be curious to see what Bridgewater can do.  He strikes me as a guy whose sole liability is his former injury. His teammates sure believed in him before he went down. You could see how crushed they were that year he did go down. That he couldn't beat out Keenum is a testament to Keenum's ability last year to seemingly escape every bad situation he was in. He missed a bunch of throws, but MN stuck with him. 

If you go Bridgewater and a mid-round first for a QB, you still have cap space and two picks in the second to improve elsewhere. 

This is contingent on not signing Cousins, BTW.  

If he checks out ok, I'd love for them to sign Bridgewater and hope to find a diamond in the rough at QB in the middle rounds of the draft.

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

If he checks out ok, I'd love for them to sign Bridgewater and hope to find a diamond in the rough at QB in the middle rounds of the draft.

You know, I wonder how many diamonds are falling to the middle rounds these days. It seems like quarterback is so important that teams are trying to find diamonds in the rough in the first. 

For example, Dak Prescott is a great story, but didn't exactly light anybody up last year without Ezekiel there. I wonder where the mid-round guys are, exactly.  

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Just now, rockaction said:

You know, I wonder how many diamonds are falling to the middle rounds these days. It seems like quarterback is so important that teams are trying to find diamonds in the rough in the first. 

For example, Dak Prescott is a great story, but didn't exactly light anybody up last year without Ezekiel there. I wonder where the mid-round guys are, exactly.  

It's not likely they'd get a hit but Bridgewater is young and improving so if they did sign him, they could take a shot and hope - they could also sign a cheap veteran as the main backup.

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Has the Neil O'Donnell analogy been made before with Cousins? Solid player who was productive in the right system, the Jets overpaid for him, it didn't work out...?

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19 hours ago, rockaction said:

You know, I wonder how many diamonds are falling to the middle rounds these days. It seems like quarterback is so important that teams are trying to find diamonds in the rough in the first. 

For example, Dak Prescott is a great story, but didn't exactly light anybody up last year without Ezekiel there. I wonder where the mid-round guys are, exactly.  

Luke Faulk? Some people are talking up Mike White as a riser but he seems more like a career backup. Rudolph certainly has the tools to be much better, but he's projected anywhere from the middle of the first to the third day of the draft.

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22 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

While $4MM a year may be a slight low-ball offer, what does this guy really think he's getting on the market?

Whenever I hear a contract # leaked that a player turned down I always assume it's from the team. That 2yr/$8mil can be structured a lot of different ways and if it was a team source and they aren't willing to mention how much was guaranteed my guess is almost none of it.

He may be the best option for a team that needs a starting TE. He's only 25 while Jimmy Graham is in his 30's and declining. Eifert is in his prime(which could translate to anytime before people are wearing pads and there is any sort of contact). Andrews is probably the best prospect in the draft but likely won't be drafted on the first day.

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23 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

The AFC is a lot more wide open than the NFC - right now at least. The Jets have some good young talent in place, $90+MM in cap space, the 1.06 and two seconds to continue to build up their roster. If they has Cousins last season they probably win at least three more games. McCown mostly played well enough but directly cost them two games and Petty was atrocious. Are they as good as Minnesota? No, but they could get close and beating out NE, Pitt and Jax (and mediocrity after that) is an easier path than in what looks like a stacked NFC.

I think he could be talked into it, especially if they are throwing a ton of money his way. There's also a lot more money to be made in endorsement deals if he's able to star in New York.

I'd also add that when Brady eventually retires, that AFC East will be a cake walk.  Buffalo is starting from scratch at QB again, Miami is hoping Tannehill will turn it around, and the Pats will also be starting from scratch (I wholly believe that when Brady retires, so will Belicheck).  It would be like the NFC West in 2010.

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48 minutes ago, Sweet Love said:

I'd also add that when Brady eventually retires, that AFC East will be a cake walk.  Buffalo is starting from scratch at QB again, Miami is hoping Tannehill will turn it around, and the Pats will also be starting from scratch (I wholly believe that when Brady retires, so will Belicheck).  It would be like the NFC West in 2010.

Ive been counting on this for a while - while it would be nice to compete next season they should be targeting a long term run as the sun sets on the Pats.....huge opportunity after having zero shot at the division for 2 decades!  

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:36 AM, Kiddnets said:

From recent history we know the Jets have not been able to develop a rookie QB since arguably Pennington: Sanchez, Geno, Petty, Hack....we do know they have had success in plugging in a developed vet: Vinny, Favre, Fitz, McCown

they run a system that has worked with Cousins - have a base as good as he had in Washington with cap space and picks to improve even more.....I see it as a very good fit for both - as long as they dont get desperate.  

Lastly as an extra bonus it keeps Bowles on the hot seat - if he has to develop a rookie QB (which I have zero faith in him doing) - it almost guarantees him an extra year where if he doesnt improve as a coach nd cant make the playoffs with Cosuins it's time to turn the page.  

 

I'm really blown away by the overall support in this thread for Cousins.  I think people are getting blinded by this idea of "hey maybe with the right QB we can be better than expected and compete" notion without addressing the fundamental flaws of the way this organization has been run.

To address you first point Kiddnets, you are completely right about the Jets recent failures in drafting a QB.  However, this coincides perfectly with the continued pattern of the Jets bringing in rookie ex defensive coaches as HCs.  It's been the same cycle for 2 decades now.  Couple this with minimal if any consistency at the OC position as a result, and it's no wonder any of these younger guys have never been coached up enough to play to any semblance of expectations relative to draft position.

On your second point, I understand people wanting to interpret the hiring of Bates as some indirect means with which to attract Cousins, but we've got zero sample size of implementing his "system," don't even now if the execution will be there with the players we currently have available or will bring in, don't know if this offensive coaching staff can coach up said players etc.  I think the Bates promotion was more out of convenience.  He's already there, and how successful would they be at hiring yet another external new offensive coordinator for Bowles when the whole league knows he's very unlikely to survive the season unless there's a playoff berth?

Which brings me to the final point - giving Cousins the kind of money that's being thrown around in this thread is the type of decision that can have major negative repercussions long term.  The thought of allowing this Mac-Bowles regime, the free reigns to make as massive a decision of giving Kirk Cousins literally the largest contract in NFL history, simply because they're both effectively playing for their jobs, is precisely the type of stupid short sighted move bad organizations make over and over again.  

Every fan of this team is tired of the mediocrity but I don't see that as an excuse to justify simply signing this guy as an attempt to try to force open a temporary window of opportunity to become a fringe wild card team and maybe pull a playoff run or 2 out of our asses again.  That's not going to be a recipe of long term success.  You can't cut the line and we aren't talented enough around Cousins to believe we're a QB away.  Yes we have cap space and draft picks.  That's not an automatic guarantee for positive results on the field by any means.  

This is a salary cap league.  QB is far and away the most expensive position.  Drafting and developing a qb (I acknowledge this is a stretch for this franchise) saves massive amounts of money that can be spent on better talent to put around that QB.  A mid tier guy in Kirk Cousins is about to make more money than guys infinitely more accomplished than he will ever even dream of.  If this doesn't stink of the potential of being another chapter in laughable Jets Failure History, I don't know what does.

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8 minutes ago, sheerterror said:

 

I'm really blown away by the overall support in this thread for Cousins.  I think people are getting blinded by this idea of "hey maybe with the right QB we can be better than expected and compete" notion without addressing the fundamental flaws of the way this organization has been run.

To address you first point Kiddnets, you are completely right about the Jets recent failures in drafting a QB.  However, this coincides perfectly with the continued pattern of the Jets bringing in rookie ex defensive coaches as HCs.  It's been the same cycle for 2 decades now.  Couple this with minimal if any consistency at the OC position as a result, and it's no wonder any of these younger guys have never been coached up enough to play to any semblance of expectations relative to draft position.

On your second point, I understand people wanting to interpret the hiring of Bates as some indirect means with which to attract Cousins, but we've got zero sample size of implementing his "system," don't even now if the execution will be there with the players we currently have available or will bring in, don't know if this offensive coaching staff can coach up said players etc.  I think the Bates promotion was more out of convenience.  He's already there, and how successful would they be at hiring yet another external new offensive coordinator for Bowles when the whole league knows he's very unlikely to survive the season unless there's a playoff berth?

Which brings me to the final point - giving Cousins the kind of money that's being thrown around in this thread is the type of decision that can have major negative repercussions long term.  The thought of allowing this Mac-Bowles regime, the free reigns to make as massive a decision of giving Kirk Cousins literally the largest contract in NFL history, simply because they're both effectively playing for their jobs, is precisely the type of stupid short sighted move bad organizations make over and over again.  

Every fan of this team is tired of the mediocrity but I don't see that as an excuse to justify simply signing this guy as an attempt to try to force open a temporary window of opportunity to become a fringe wild card team and maybe pull a playoff run or 2 out of our asses again.  That's not going to be a recipe of long term success.  You can't cut the line and we aren't talented enough around Cousins to believe we're a QB away.  Yes we have cap space and draft picks.  That's not an automatic guarantee for positive results on the field by any means.  

This is a salary cap league.  QB is far and away the most expensive position.  Drafting and developing a qb (I acknowledge this is a stretch for this franchise) saves massive amounts of money that can be spent on better talent to put around that QB.  A mid tier guy in Kirk Cousins is about to make more money than guys infinitely more accomplished than he will ever even dream of.  If this doesn't stink of the potential of being another chapter in laughable Jets Failure History, I don't know what does.

All fair points - I guess I am higher on Cousins than most as I see him as a top 10 option with the ability to win a Super Bowl if the supporting cast is there....would I prefer a young stud franchise QB that would lead us for the next 15 yrs and be a great salary cap contract for 5 yrs....of course....

problem is they finished with the 6 pick and as such will miss out or need to trade major assets to land what I and most view are the 2 true blue chippers which are Rosen and Darnold.  I am not confident Allen and Mayfield are franchise QBs and there is no guarantee that either will even be there at 6 necessitating possible assets to deal for a mid range QB prospect.  Throw in that I have zero confidence in Mac's scouting QBs and Bowles/coaching/developing a rookie QB its really a no brainer for me.....they do well with vet QBs....Cosusins will be in his prime for 5 yrs which is an eternity in the NFL....even with the huge overpay there is still lots of $ to sign more talent and the premium picks can be used to help other needs as well.  

Bottom line is if Cousins can be a top 10 QB in that offense and they can surround him with solid talent with the excess $ and draft picks - I think this team can make a deep playoff run.  Much more risk in drafting a rookie....hoping Mac picks the right one or doesnt overspend getting one.....then have our mediocre coaching staff develop him. Plus it easily gets Bowles an extra year where with Cousins it should be a playoff or bust type mandate assuming no crazy injuries.  

Is there risk that he flops like O'Donnell....possibly - but I have seen him carry some bad offenses enough to be comfortable that he is not a bust.  Gotta put the chips on the table this year - I just think this is the safest route for the franchise and quickest way to make a serious run,

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36 minutes ago, sheerterror said:

 

I'm really blown away by the overall support in this thread for Cousins.  I think people are getting blinded by this idea of "hey maybe with the right QB we can be better than expected and compete" notion without addressing the fundamental flaws of the way this organization has been run.

To address you first point Kiddnets, you are completely right about the Jets recent failures in drafting a QB.  However, this coincides perfectly with the continued pattern of the Jets bringing in rookie ex defensive coaches as HCs.  It's been the same cycle for 2 decades now.  Couple this with minimal if any consistency at the OC position as a result, and it's no wonder any of these younger guys have never been coached up enough to play to any semblance of expectations relative to draft position.

On your second point, I understand people wanting to interpret the hiring of Bates as some indirect means with which to attract Cousins, but we've got zero sample size of implementing his "system," don't even now if the execution will be there with the players we currently have available or will bring in, don't know if this offensive coaching staff can coach up said players etc.  I think the Bates promotion was more out of convenience.  He's already there, and how successful would they be at hiring yet another external new offensive coordinator for Bowles when the whole league knows he's very unlikely to survive the season unless there's a playoff berth?

Which brings me to the final point - giving Cousins the kind of money that's being thrown around in this thread is the type of decision that can have major negative repercussions long term.  The thought of allowing this Mac-Bowles regime, the free reigns to make as massive a decision of giving Kirk Cousins literally the largest contract in NFL history, simply because they're both effectively playing for their jobs, is precisely the type of stupid short sighted move bad organizations make over and over again.  

Every fan of this team is tired of the mediocrity but I don't see that as an excuse to justify simply signing this guy as an attempt to try to force open a temporary window of opportunity to become a fringe wild card team and maybe pull a playoff run or 2 out of our asses again.  That's not going to be a recipe of long term success.  You can't cut the line and we aren't talented enough around Cousins to believe we're a QB away.  Yes we have cap space and draft picks.  That's not an automatic guarantee for positive results on the field by any means.  

This is a salary cap league.  QB is far and away the most expensive position.  Drafting and developing a qb (I acknowledge this is a stretch for this franchise) saves massive amounts of money that can be spent on better talent to put around that QB.  A mid tier guy in Kirk Cousins is about to make more money than guys infinitely more accomplished than he will ever even dream of.  If this doesn't stink of the potential of being another chapter in laughable Jets Failure History, I don't know what does.

I think you make many very valid points but Cousins hasn't even turned 30 yet so he's not necessarily a "short term" play. The thing is QB contracts are unfortunately absurd and Cousins is next in line - in 3/5 years as other QB contract come up, he'll likely move back in line and be the 6th-7th highest paid QB instead of the highest and then his contract won't be so bad (especially if they do front load the money).

As far as letting Mac/Bowles make the decisions, I was on record as preferring to clean house while we were in such good shape, but that ship has sailed. What choice do we have other then let them sign free agents and draft players? Should Woody leave them in charge but neuter them? It's too late now - we need to hope they do the right things.

I was all for them drafting a QB as well - and I'm still not against going that way - but they are now in a bad position to do that with the 6th pick and so many QB needy teams. Do they take the 4th best QB at 6? As someone that does not believe in Josh Allen I think that could be a disaster as well. I would love for Baker Mayfield to fall to them but I'm not sure we can count on it. Trading up is an option - but then there goes a whole bunch of assets that the team needs to build.

Maybe the best option is signing a cheap(er) young guy like Bridgewater or McCarron (although I'm not a fan) and using a second or third or fourth round pick on a QB and cross our fingers we find a Cousins, Prescott or Wilson that way? I don't know the answer - but I can convince myself that Cousins is the way to go - and right now that may be the best of the many risky options in front of them.

Bottom line - is one way or another the team needs a QB.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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And I'm not believing for one minute about some of the figures being thrown out there right now. No team is going to guarantee $150MM. This is silly season. Let's all remember that.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

As far as letting Mac/Bowles make the decisions, I was on record as preferring to clean house while we were in such good shape, but that ship has sailed. What choice do we have other then let them sign free agents and draft players? Should Woody leave them in charge but neuter them? It's too late now - we need to hope they do the right things.

This is exactly what I need to come to grips with, because me being a pissed off, spiteful fan isn't going to change the seeds they've already sown.  I've gotta move on from the idea that I still want the 2018 season to be what 2017 was supposed to be.  

As for Cousins not necessarily being a short term play, yea absolutely agree, because he isn't old by any stretch for an NFL QB.  But having said that, if he plays at or above expectations, can't you see him seeking even more money by the time it's time to get paid again?  It just feels as though even if he does work out, we're going to be going down that slippery slope of sinking 30M into our QB annually because we can't figure out how to develop one ourselves and then pay our OWN guy.

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5 hours ago, Statorama said:

I'm a Cousins fan, but are the Jets really that much better than the Redskins?

I don't think NYJ is a good spot for him

It's not about the Jets being that much better, although I could argue with the cap space and picks, we are in position to be better in the future. There is a lot of acrimony between Cousins and Washington.

If I'm Cousins, I would strongly consider Minnesota as the optimal location if they are willing to shell out the big bucks.  Cleveland has some good players, picks, and cap space, but lots of negative vibes and history.  I think Denver as a landing spot is overrated. Their team is aging and the defense wasn't creating any pressure or turnovers last year.  I think the Jets would be in the top 2 teams as destinations for Cousins. Top 3 at worst.

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10 hours ago, sheerterror said:

 

I'm really blown away by the overall support in this thread for Cousins.  I think people are getting blinded by this idea of "hey maybe with the right QB we can be better than expected and compete" notion without addressing the fundamental flaws of the way this organization has been run.

To address you first point Kiddnets, you are completely right about the Jets recent failures in drafting a QB.  However, this coincides perfectly with the continued pattern of the Jets bringing in rookie ex defensive coaches as HCs.  It's been the same cycle for 2 decades now.  Couple this with minimal if any consistency at the OC position as a result, and it's no wonder any of these younger guys have never been coached up enough to play to any semblance of expectations relative to draft position.

On your second point, I understand people wanting to interpret the hiring of Bates as some indirect means with which to attract Cousins, but we've got zero sample size of implementing his "system," don't even now if the execution will be there with the players we currently have available or will bring in, don't know if this offensive coaching staff can coach up said players etc.  I think the Bates promotion was more out of convenience.  He's already there, and how successful would they be at hiring yet another external new offensive coordinator for Bowles when the whole league knows he's very unlikely to survive the season unless there's a playoff berth?

Which brings me to the final point - giving Cousins the kind of money that's being thrown around in this thread is the type of decision that can have major negative repercussions long term.  The thought of allowing this Mac-Bowles regime, the free reigns to make as massive a decision of giving Kirk Cousins literally the largest contract in NFL history, simply because they're both effectively playing for their jobs, is precisely the type of stupid short sighted move bad organizations make over and over again.  

Every fan of this team is tired of the mediocrity but I don't see that as an excuse to justify simply signing this guy as an attempt to try to force open a temporary window of opportunity to become a fringe wild card team and maybe pull a playoff run or 2 out of our asses again.  That's not going to be a recipe of long term success.  You can't cut the line and we aren't talented enough around Cousins to believe we're a QB away.  Yes we have cap space and draft picks.  That's not an automatic guarantee for positive results on the field by any means.  

This is a salary cap league.  QB is far and away the most expensive position.  Drafting and developing a qb (I acknowledge this is a stretch for this franchise) saves massive amounts of money that can be spent on better talent to put around that QB.  A mid tier guy in Kirk Cousins is about to make more money than guys infinitely more accomplished than he will ever even dream of.  If this doesn't stink of the potential of being another chapter in laughable Jets Failure History, I don't know what does.

You make some good points. My biggest concern is Bowles and lesser so McCagnan.

I think you need a special type of QB to succeed in NY. Sanchez and Smith were terribly immature and could not handle the limelight and/or press criticism. Petty was a lower pick and then there is Hackenberg. We can go further back, but what's the point.

Personally I'm not sold on any of these first round QBs and I think Cousins is a top third QB in the league right now. Is he elite? No, but there are only a handful of those guys anyway and odds are I wouldn't bet on any of these being elite either. Probably at best they become a cheaper version of Cousins. Based on where they are now, that's probably 3-4 years away. 

I think Cousins would give us a good 5-7 years. Plenty of time to try to draft another QB to develop later. In the mean time, with our picks and cap space we can become a division contender assuming that NE's window begins to close in another couple of years. By then we can be loaded and even contend for a playoff spot next year albeit with Bowles leading the way.

If we don't get Cousins, sure, draft one any of the top 4 guys. It's a major gamble that we develop them, but one that we would have to take.  I'm not sold on any of the other FA QBs.

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28 minutes ago, NYRAGE said:

It's not about the Jets being that much better, although I could argue with the cap space and picks, we are in position to be better in the future. There is a lot of acrimony between Cousins and Washington.

If I'm Cousins, I would strongly consider Minnesota as the optimal location if they are willing to shell out the big bucks.  Cleveland has some good players, picks, and cap space, but lots of negative vibes and history.  I think Denver as a landing spot is overrated. Their team is aging and the defense wasn't creating any pressure or turnovers last year.  I think the Jets would be in the top 2 teams as destinations for Cousins. Top 3 at worst.

Agree on Minnesota as an ideal spot.  If the money is anywhere close, I think he'll take it. 

A lot of pieces in place, less media pressure, at least 9 games a year in a climate controlled field, and not exactly a murderers row of defenses in the division to face.

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6 hours ago, Statorama said:

I'm a Cousins fan, but are the Jets really that much better than the Redskins?

I don't think NYJ is a good spot for him

Defnsively they are. Offensively, at this point probably not. If Enunwa comes back healthy, and ASJ resigns they'd be close to what he has last season but not on par with when Jackson and Garcon were there and Reed stayed healthy.  I think they have the ability to add some pieces though.

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