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Is this forum still an Anti Trump Echo Chamber (Was: just a liberal echo chamber?) (3 Viewers)

People who get educated don't start their "real" careers until their 30?  That's a laughably bad assumption.  I'd wager the majority of folks do what most of us here did.  Start working a degree-required job around 22 and acquire additional education at night.  So even if takes 4 or 5 years to finish, you're 27, have 5 years of actual work experience, and an advanced degree.  Plus you neglected to indicate that people who work with their minds can work longer since their bodies don't break down from the physical activity.

Even if you go right to graduate school, you're finishing at 25, not 30.  
There are plenty of jobs that non-collegiate folks can do that allow them to work with their minds.

An advanced degree can help....but it depends on the field.  In the world of IT where I work, a degree is useless unless you want to soar up the company and get into director/VP type of positions.  Of course, those positions are rare for EVERYONE, regardless of their education.

 
I disagree with your premise. Most Republicans (at least most traditional Republicans) disagree with Democrats and vice versa, though we all mostly share ultimate goals- where we disagree is on method. It’s only in recent years that the Republican base has become extreme and moved far beyond this dichotomy. I can’t think of too many Democrats that want “terrible things” the same way the current Republican base does. If you have an example I’m willing to listen. 
The Republican base doesn't feel that they now want "terrible things".  You may feel they've moved into the extreme, but they don't feel that, in terms of what they want.  

On the outside I see both sides supporting things that I find terrible.  For me, abortion is horrific, but so is the fascination with guns on the right.  

For me, this seems like a logical position.  Look at both sides, their core values, and decide where they stand morally.  I know where my morals come from, so it's relatively straight-forward for me.

But to make the statement that the Republicans now want terrible things, thereby implying that the Democrats don't...it's just an interesting position and one I don't understand, because I'm not sure how you're defining what a "terrible thing" is.

 
You just had a post conplaining about bullies who reported you. Now you’re complaining about being banned for “something petty.” If you don’t want to be called a whiner, then stop acting like one. Man up; this forum is for grownups. 
Yes, you tattling bullies rat us out, we get banned and then you wonder where we went...Go tend to you illegal alien workforce.. piss ant...

 
Matthias said:
Night school isn't the norm for grad degrees.

The norm is college at 18, graduate at 22. Get an after-college job for a few years. Which may be unrelated, or at least maybe not really helpful, to your ultimate career. Say enter a grad program at 26. Masters, 2 years. JDs, 3 years. PhD's, 6-9. A friend's fiancee just went back to get an education something that took 3 years. And then you have to find a career-related job which can be difficult because you've pigeon-holed yourself a bit. I have a friend who last week was almost crying because she got a public policy degree from a very good school last summer and since then, has had 1 degree-related interview.

So, yeah. Around 30. Plus, minus. That's not laughably bad. I'm gonna say that's pretty close to reality for a wide swath of folks, especially within a discussion of whether we overly consume education. If anything, you're the one who doesn't have a good handle on things, imo.
Why would someone graduate from college and then work in an unrelated field for 8 years?  That makes zero sense and is imho a laughably bad assumption.  Hell, lawyers are practicing well before 30, so are dentist, vets, engineers.  Even physician are usually done their entire residency and fellowship by their early 30's.  You're telling me that someone who graduates with a finance degree, HR degree, etc don't work in their field until 30?  Sorry Charlie you're wrong.

The fact that you know a few people who floundered for a few years doesn't make your assumptions hold water.  

 
There are plenty of jobs that non-collegiate folks can do that allow them to work with their minds.

An advanced degree can help....but it depends on the field.  In the world of IT where I work, a degree is useless unless you want to soar up the company and get into director/VP type of positions.  Of course, those positions are rare for EVERYONE, regardless of their education.
Yea, I'm not suggesting that getting a degree is the only way to go, just that if the options are getting a degree vs being a tradesman (where you can start earning earlier although with apprenticeships you may not even start earning real money until your early 20's anyway), delaying your earning while getting educated often means you can work longer on the back side of your career. 

 
Thanks for that insightful comment.  I'm sure we can build a robust discussion around this..
Well then, let's start with your response to Tim's post, where he mentioned, among other things, "corruption, bigotry, incompetence and autocratic tendencies." Unless you're going to describe how all of those things relate to any of the presidents in our lifetimes, then I think my joke about "different negatives" stands. And you can't count President Hillary.

 
Well then, let's start with your response to Tim's post, where he mentioned, among other things, "corruption, bigotry, incompetence and autocratic tendencies." Unless you're going to describe how all of those things relate to any of the presidents in our lifetimes, then I think my joke about "different negatives" stands. And you can't count President Hillary.
So past administrations didn't have any corruption?   Watergate etc...  Bigotry, incompetence and autocratic tendencies are subjective...

 
So past administrations didn't have any corruption?   Watergate etc...  Bigotry, incompetence and autocratic tendencies are subjective...
Now we're rolling. How would you compare and contrast what we're learning about The Donald with what we know about Nixon, etc?

 
Wow, excellent post!...Those numbers are stark reality....The mods were guilty of letting a handful of bullies/tattlers run around and report anybody who had an opposing view...Now those same bullies/tattlers are wondering where the people with the opposing view went....
Name one person that was banned simply for having an opposing view.

 
Matthias said:
I think you're really out of touch. And for the second time skipped over, "around 30" to try to stick at exactly 30. Which is a big difference. And again, ignoring or not realizing that the premise of the discussion was the US over-educating itself.

The average age of a grad student is 33 (which seems really weird to me), but it looks like that includes people over 40 doing night school for a 2nd career.

At top law schools, the average age of the starting student is 24.

Age distribution of master's students in Canada are very close %agewise between 24 - 27 and about 26-33 for PhD's

It's incredibly common for people who are thinking about graduate school to do something else for a couple of years. They're burned out. Or want to not be completely broke. Or want to feel things out before setting themselves on a more fixed path. Law students often work as paralegals in law firms (which really don't give them any attorney-related skills) or say at policy houses or in a politician's office in DC. So if they enter law school at 24 or 25, they're graduating at 27 or 28. Or about 30. And there's a number of folks who finish college later than 22. Or maybe take a bit longer before entering a program, or doing a dual degree. Or lots of stuff. I'm guessing people who do med school start a little earlier than average, just because it is so long. But even then, I have friends who worked in chem labs for a couple of years before applying. Grad programs even often value some real-world experience, so it gives you a better shot at getting into a competitive program.

Sure. HR folks may start at 22, although that really begs the question of why do they even need a college degree and shouldn't just start at 18. But for people who go onto grad school, they're not starting their career job at 23, in all likelihood. And you spouting off about Sorry Charlies doesn't place you any closer to being right. Just more embarrassingly wrong.
The average age of grad school is 33 because a lot of people go at nights during their career just as I suggested.  I'm not trying to fight with you, it's just that your assumption that a "typical" college educated person doesn't start their actual career working years until "around" 30 is laughably bad.  Some start at 22, some 23, some 25, some 27, some 30.  The average isn't close to 30 however unless you're talking about physicians or people who stay in school and get their doctorates.  And the assumption that those two groups somehow wasted their years in education is also laughably bad. 

 
Wow, excellent post!...Those numbers are stark reality....The mods were guilty of letting a handful of bullies/tattlers run around and report anybody who had an opposing view...Now those same bullies/tattlers are wondering where the people with the opposing view went....
Contrary to the false narrative that keeps getting repeated, I don't think anyone here has ever been reported for simply expressing an opposing view and if they did I doubt the mods acted on it. What was reported and led to timeouts was the nasty or obscene name calling and vicious personal attacks that accompanied the opposing views.

 
I will make an effort to read - but, I would be surprised if raising the level of all citizens (or most), is not a net-plus for the country.
Here is some empirical data summarized in The Elephant in the Brain:

"Perhaps the most damning puzzle of all, however, is the finding that education isn’t nearly as valuable at the national level as at the individual level. The data are a little messy, but here’s how it works. Individual students can expect their incomes to rise roughly 8 to 12 percent for each additional year of school they complete. Nations, however, can expect their incomes to rise by only 1 to 3 percent for each additional year of school completed by their citizens on average. [These figures on the marginal returns to education (both personal and national) are drawn from a range of estimates in Pritchett (2001); Islam (1995); Benhabib and Spiegel (1994); Krueger and Lindahl (2001, 1125); Lange and Topel (2006, 462–70); de la Fuente and Doménech (2006). Further complicating the matter is the prospect that there may be some 'reverse causation,' where increases in national income trigger more schooling rather than the other way around. See, e.g., Bils and Klenow (2000).] If schooling actually works by improving individual students, then we would expect the improvements for individual students to be cumulative across a nation. But nations don’t seem to benefit as much from educating their citizens. Something, as they say, doesn’t add up."

I'll go ahead and quote at length from the book:

A SIGNALING EXPLANATION

In 2001, the Nobel Prize was awarded to economist Michael Spence for a mathematical model of one explanation for these puzzles: signaling. The basic idea is that students go to school not so much to learn useful job skills as to show off their work potential to future employers. In other words, the value of education isn’t just about learning; it’s also about credentialing. Of course, this idea is much older than Spence; he’s just famous for expressing the idea in math.

In the signaling model, each student has a hidden quality—future work productivity—that prospective employers are eager to know. But this quality isn’t something that can be observed easily over a short period, for example, by giving job applicants a simple test. So instead, employers use school performance as a proxy. This works because students who do better in school, over the long run, tend to have greater work potential. It’s not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are many exceptions, but by and large, school performance predicts future work performance (and therefore earnings).

People often talk as if intelligence were the key element underlying both school and work performance. But ordinary IQ can’t be the whole story, because we have cheap and fast tests to reveal IQ. More to the point, however, raw intelligence can only take you so far. If you’re smart but lazy, for example, your intelligence won’t be worth very much to your employer. As Caplan argues, the best employees have a whole bundle of attributes—including intelligence, of course, but also conscientiousness, attention to detail, a strong work ethic, and a willingness to conform to expectations. These qualities are just as useful in blue-collar settings like warehouses and factories as they are in white-collar settings like design studios and cubicle farms. But whereas someone’s IQ can be measured with a simple 30-minute test, most of these other qualities can only be demonstrated by consistent performance over long periods of time.

Imagine interviewing a 22-year-old college grad for a position at your firm. Glancing down at her resume, you notice she got an A in the biology class she took during her sophomore year. What does this tell you about the young woman in front of you? Well, it doesn’t necessarily mean she understands biology; she might have retained that knowledge, but statistically speaking, she’s probably forgotten a lot of it. More precisely, it tells you that she’s the kind of person who’s capable of getting an A in a biology class. This is more than just a tautology. It implies that she has the ability to master a large body of new concepts, quickly and thoroughly enough to meet the standards of an expert in the field—or at least well enough to beat most of her peers at the same task. (Even if the class wasn’t graded on a strict curve, most professors calibrate their courses so that only a minority of students earn A’s.) In addition to what the A tells you about her facility with concepts, it also tells you that she’s the kind of person who can consistently stay on top of her workload. Every paper, project, and homework assignment has a deadline, and she met most if not all of them. Every test fell on a specific date, and she studied and crammed enough to perform well on those tests—all while managing a much larger workload from other classes, of course. If she got good grades in those courses too—wow! And if she did lots of extracurricular activities (or a small number at a very high level), her good grades shine even brighter. All of this testifies quite strongly to her ability to get things done at your firm, and none it depends on whether she actually remembers anything from biology or any of her other classes.

In other words, educated workers are generally better workers, but not necessarily because school made them better. Instead, a lot of the value of education lies in giving students a chance to advertise the attractive qualities they already have.

Caplan offers a helpful analogy. Suppose you inherit a diamond from your grandma, and you want to turn around and sell it. What can you do to fetch a good price? On the one hand, you could take steps to improve the diamond, perhaps by polishing it or cutting it into a more attractive shape. On the other hand, you could take the diamond to be inspected by a professional, who will then issue a certificate attesting to its quality. This will also raise the price, since most buyers can’t judge a diamond themselves, and without a certificate, they’re worried about getting swindled.

The traditional view of education is that it raises a student’s value via improvement—by taking in rough, raw material and making it more attractive by reshaping and polishing it. The signaling model says that education raises a student’s value via certification—by taking an unknown specimen, subjecting it to tests and measurements, and then issuing a grade that makes its value clear to buyers.

Of course, these two processes aren’t mutually exclusive. While labor economists tend to downplay the signaling model, it’s well known as an explanation and is popular among sociologists of education. No one claims that signaling explains the entire value of education. Some learning and improvement certainly does take place in the classroom, and some of it is critical to employers. This is especially true for technical and professional fields like engineering, medicine, and law. But even in those fields, signaling is important, and for many other fields, signaling may completely eclipse the learning function. Caplan, for example, estimates that signaling is responsible for up to 80 percent of the total value of education.

IMPLICATIONS OF THE SIGNALING MODEL

“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”—Mark Twain

The signaling model can explain all the puzzles we saw earlier. Clearly it explains why both students and employers are more interested in credentials (getting good grades and degrees from good colleges) than learning per se, even though, like Robin, they could get top-quality learning entirely for free. [Robin Hanson, one of the co-authors, audited classes at Stanford rather than enrolling and paying tuition. -MT] It also explains why no one is particularly bothered when curricula are impractical or when students forget what they learn—because it’s not the knowledge itself that’s as important as showing that you have the generic ability to learn and complete schoolwork. Signaling also explains the sheepskin effect, where actually earning a diploma is more valuable than the individual years of learning that went into it—because employers prefer workers who stick around and finish what they start.

As is often the case with these “hidden motive” explanations, things that seem like flaws (given the official function) actually turn out to be features (for the hidden function). For example, the fact that school is boring, arduous, and full of busywork might hinder students’ ability to learn. But to the extent that school is primarily about credentialing, its goal is to separate the wheat (good future worker bees) from the chaff (slackers, daydreamers, etc.). And if school were easy or fun, it wouldn’t serve this function very well. If there were a way to fast-forward all the learning (and retention) that actually takes place in school—for example, by giving students a magic pill that taught them everything in an instant—we would still need to subject them to boring lectures and nitpicky tests in order to credential them.

Signaling also explains a lot of things we don’t see (that we might expect to see if school were primarily about learning). For example, if the value of a college degree were largely a function of what you learned during your college career, we might expect colleges to experiment with giving students a comprehensive “exit exam” covering material in all the courses they took. Sure, it would be difficult, and there’s no way to test the material in the same depth as final exams given at the end of each semester. But if employers actually cared about knowledge, they’d want to know how much students actually retain. Instead, employers seem content with information about students’ generic ability to learn things (and complete assignments on time).

Remember the puzzle where nations don’t get as much value out of school as individual students do? Well the signaling model explains why. The more school is about credentialing (rather than learning), the less the nation as a whole stands to benefit from more years of it. If only a small amount of useful learning takes place, then sending every citizen to an extra year of school will result in only a small increase in the nation’s overall productivity.

Meanwhile, when you’re an individual student within a nation, getting more school can substantially increase your future earnings—not because of what you’ve learned, but because the extra school helps distinguish you as a better worker. And, crucially, it distinguishes you from other students. Thus, to the extent that education is driven by signaling rather than learning, it’s more of a competition than a cooperative activity for our mutual benefit. Sure, we’d like school to be a place where we can all get better together, but the signaling model shows us that it’s more of a competitive tournament where only so many students can “win.”

“Higher education,” says Peter Thiel, a tech billionaire famously critical of college, "sorts us all into a hierarchy. Kids at the top enjoy prestige because they’ve defeated everybody else in a competition to reach the schools that proudly exclude the most people. All the hard work at Harvard is done by the admissions officers who anoint an already-proven hypercompetitive elite. If that weren’t true—if superior instruction could explain the value of college—then why not franchise the Ivy League? Why not let more students benefit? It will never happen because the top U.S. colleges draw their mystique from zero-sum competition."

All of this suggests that we reconsider our huge subsidies and encouragements of school. Yes, there are benefits to credentialing and sorting students—namely, the economic efficiency that results from getting higher-skilled workers into more important jobs. But the benefits seem to pale next to the enormous monetary, psychic, and social waste of the education tournament.
 
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Contrary to the false narrative that keeps getting repeated, I don't think anyone here has ever been reported for simply expressing an opposing view and if they did I doubt the mods acted on it. What was reported and led to timeouts was the nasty or obscene name calling and vicious personal attacks that accompanied the opposing views.
Nobody should be reported for anything imo. We're adults here 

Would you agree or disagree?

 
Nations, however, can expect their incomes to rise by only 1 to 3 percent for each additional year of school completed by their citizens on average.
Its a good read, and I can see how the concept plays out - but doesn't this stat alone - show that a nation is better with a more educated work-force?  It may be that individuals benefit more - so as a nation we lose some of that in the broader context - but we are still better off with education, than without.

And, for clarification, I am also in favor of non-liberal arts education beyond high school - where actual knowledge gained is important - be it a technical school, coding bootcamp, nursing school, etc.

And, by providing cost-effective education opportunities - even of the liberal arts variety - you are opening the door to more students to prove their worth via credentialing.  That suggests, to me, that it would raise the bar for employers - creating a more productive workforce, while still weeding out the chaff. 

 
Going to post a quick dissenting opinion on The Elephant In The Brain here and save further discussion for another thread germane to the topic...

The thesis put forth by Simler and Hanson in the book, in a nutshell is [action] isn't really about [action]; [action] is about signaling.  The actions we take to benefit ourselves, our communities, and our species isn't about actual improvement, but an effort to signal to others how awesome we are for wanting to create a benefit.  Not surprised that a cynic like MT would buy the snake oil this pair is selling, but after a while, reading the book felt like reading General Tso posts cleaned up by a ghostwriter sprinkling the diction with a thesaurus and omitting most of the insults.    

 
Nobody should be reported for anything imo. We're adults here 

Would you agree or disagree?
Disagree. This is not an un-moderated forum where anything goes. There are plenty sites like that available as an alternative if you don't like enforcement of the rules here.

 
Disagree. This is not an un-moderated forum where anything goes. There are plenty sites like that available as an alternative if you don't like enforcement of the rules here.
You know I love you squis, but I’ve never understood you on this issue. Moderators should do their job; that’s what they’re here for. But you’re not a moderator, why are YOU spending time on this? It’s a damn message board! If somebody breaks the rules, why do YOU care? I just don’t get it. 

 
Now we're rolling. How would you compare and contrast what we're learning about The Donald with what we know about Nixon, etc?
The paint is not dry yet with the Donald so its not a fair comparison imo.   Nixon and his crew were guilty of crimes. 

 
The paint is not dry yet with the Donald so its not a fair comparison imo.   Nixon and his crew were guilty of crimes. 
Nixon was indeed pretty odious, especially his back-channels with the South Vietnamese during the '68 election and his lie to LBJ about it, but he was run out of office mostly for covering up a penny-ante break-in.  Donald has been in the public eye for decades, we've all seen him do that much and that much more before breakfast on an average day. We know what the man is because he's been showing us what he is since he was color-coding apartments in NYC.

 
You know I love you squis, but I’ve never understood you on this issue. Moderators should do their job; that’s what they’re here for. But you’re not a moderator, why are YOU spending time on this? It’s a damn message board! If somebody breaks the rules, why do YOU care? I just don’t get it. 
Very  :goodposting:

Wish I could give this more likes

 

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