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Is this forum still just a liberal echo chamber?

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50 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I think what he's saying is that if you have someone hell bent on claiming Trump won the popular vote in 2016, then what is the point of engaging them?  That's a 2+2 example.   You can look up the numbers and clearly see Clinton won the popular vote.  You can link them to the numbers but if they insist the numbers are wrong then what's the point of a 10 page argument engaging them.

I know why people engage them.  It's because they want to win a discussion.  We all are guilty of it at times.

I can't recall the last political thread where you didn't have to declare a side before having the discussion.  Most people are unable to even discuss a topic without using the terms liberal or conservative to make their points.

Perhaps we are talking past each other...not sure.  You give an example.  I also provided examples where "nothingburger" is the standard to the entirety of the Mueller investigation.  Clearly that's not true.  As one who's often labeled "liberal" by the alleged conservatives and conservative by the alleged liberals, I gave up on those terms long ago.  They are meaningless, but for some reason I push back on liberal being used when the correct description is anti-trump.  I suspect it's because I don't appreciate the bastardization of the term conservative by Trump and his supporters.  They are far from it.  So I try my hardest to frame my comments in terms of "pro trump" and "anti trump".  That's much more accurate and easy to understand (at least to me).  

To the bold, this is a lesson I've come to learn...maybe slower than others, but learned nonetheless.  It's absolutely true that I wanted to beat people over the head with facts, but then I realized that approach is pointless to people who don't live in a reality with those facts.  The second motive I had for engaging them was to show the willful disconnect, but then I realized it was pretty much like going around to everyone saying "hey, did you know water is wet?!?!?!"  The majority of time I engage these people now is to highlight examples of what I am asserting.  I know there is no changing their minds.  You can see that going on in the Russia thread at this very moment.  There are indictments, convictions, pleas, plea deals all done, complete and documented and the most popular line in opposition to the investigation is "nothingburger".  That's it.

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2 hours ago, The Commish said:

I don't disagree with this actually except for the scope changes.  The standard stuff like the bold you mention is spot on IMO.

I would disagree with the gun control thread.  I was in there for a long time and it's pretty clear shtick took the place of actual discussion (at least with KC...in my opinion).  I haven't been in there in a long time because I got tired of replying to the same thing over and over after trying to actually engage in genuine discussion with Stealthy.  He has his talking points and he sticks to them.  That's fine.  I can absolutely see why people think he's trolling because of the lengths he goes to in order to stay on talking points.  He does (or did while I was in there) anything and everything he could to say the same thing over and over....kind of the very definition of echo chamber if you will ;)  It's clear his mind is made up and no amount of information is going to change it.  That became clear to me when he kept referring to me as one who was anti-gun and wanted to take all the guns away from everyone despite dozens of posts explaining my actual position that was nothing like that.

 

Ditto. This is exactly why I gave up too.  

For the record, I do t believe SC or KC are trolls or trolling.  Just set in their opinion. 

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46 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Ditto. This is exactly why I gave up too.  

For the record, I do t believe SC or KC are trolls or trolling.  Just set in their opinion. 

Based purely on my personal experience, I wouldn't even think of lumping them together.  KCitons, to his credit, had a productive dialogue with me for at least 2-3 pages once I got him to ignore all the :hophead: around him and convince him that wasn't my intent.  It was a brief, yet important (to me) interaction.  I believe he has a good idea of my position.  SC doesn't have a clue and more importantly he simply doesn't care.  He prides himself on being "simple" and he crawls into that hole everytime the conversation goes somewhere he doesn't want it to.

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3 hours ago, roadkill1292 said:

The logical follow up question to ask here is why your board attracts this kind of makeup from its body politic. I don't know if FBGs is in the majority or the minority in this regard; there seem to be plenty of others where anti-Trumpism is strong and, anecdotally speaking, they seem to be mostly ones where the moderation is a little more restrictive. 

That is a good question @roadkill1292  I don't know the answer.

I do think it's a likely a "momentum" thing. It's the "nothing draws a crowd like a crowd" thing. When one side or the other takes over in volume, it's very easy to attract even more of the majority.

I've said before, If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't post at all on this board. It's just not worth the fight. So what we wind up with is a few Trump supporters who have thick skin and can handle a ton of negativity. 

I think that's a serious problem with our board. And it's why I'm constantly asking folks to be cool and focus on discussion and honest dialog over scoring points with drop the mic soundbites. We do pretty good there.

But to answer your question, I don't really know why our boards are so far out of line with the general population on our Anti Trump sentiment. (Although I know many will say the reason is because we're not Rasicts/Fascist/Bigots/Evil/Subhuman people but that's more a description of the symptom than an answer...)

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

But- if you really don’t like the fact that the majority of posts are from one side, there is a simple solution: get rid of the political sub forum and return political discussion back to the free for all. That will open it up. 

1

No. It's staying here. I've had way too many people say they are thrilled to have political talk out of the FFA. 

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

I'm not debating that this place is incredibly anti-trump.  What I can't reconcile is the "try not to be the echo chamber" and "if people aren't willing to accept facts, it's best not to engage them".

I'm not sure I follow. I do want us to engage people that have a thought different than ours. And I think it's ok to not engage those that are making arguments equal to 2+2 does not equal 4.

Are you saying everyone who disagrees with you is making a 2+2 does not equal 4 argument? 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

That is a good question @roadkill1292  I don't know the answer.

I do think it's a likely a "momentum" thing. It's the "nothing draws a crowd like a crowd" thing. When one side or the other takes over in volume, it's very easy to attract even more of the majority.

I've said before, If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't post at all on this board. It's just not worth the fight. So what we wind up with is a few Trump supporters who have thick skin and can handle a ton of negativity. 

I think that's a serious problem with our board. And it's why I'm constantly asking folks to be cool and focus on discussion and honest dialog over scoring points with drop the mic soundbites. We do pretty good there.

But to answer your question, I don't really know why our boards are so far out of line with the general population on our Anti Trump sentiment. (Although I know many will say the reason is because we're not Rasicts/Fascist/Bigots/Evil/Subhuman people but that's more a description of the symptom than an answer...)

I think you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle by worrying over the lack of opposition in this particular instance (only re: Trump, we have plenty of more equitable debates about other issues). Trump supporters don't participate because they're outnumbered. They don't participate because the man himself leaves them precious little with which to successfully defend and debate.

And I'll give you an example of that same weird phenomenon happening with another issue, only with the numbers reversed. In the debate about colleges eliminating the restrictions on athletes' incomes, there are about three of us (ok, a few more) who are really vocal about this issue (on the players' sides). The vast majority of your posters, if national polls are any indication, are on the other side of this issue. But they won't come out and debate us. There's plenty of them but they don't show up because they get killed by their lack of good arguments.

[/rant]

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4 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

I think you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle by worrying over the lack of opposition in this particular instance (only re: Trump, we have plenty of more equitable debates about other issues). Trump supporters don't participate because they're outnumbered. They don't participate because the man himself leaves them precious little with which to successfully defend and debate.

And I'll give you an example of that same weird phenomenon happening with another issue, only with the numbers reversed. In the debate about colleges eliminating the restrictions on athletes' incomes, there are about three of us (ok, a few more) who are really vocal about this issue (on the players' sides). The vast majority of your posters, if national polls are any indication, are on the other side of this issue. But they won't come out and debate us. There's plenty of them but they don't show up because they get killed by their lack of good arguments.

[/rant]

Thanks. We'll just strongly disagree on why Trump supporters don't participate. It's primarily because they're far outnumbered and participating simply isn't worth the energy. They'll find a board where their posts are much more welcome. 

It's why the Alabama fan doesn't go to the Auburn message boards to talk Football. There are just way easier ways to have a discussion. 

I'm basing this on what I feel myself and what I've had other people tell me about our boards. I have some conservative lawyer friends who :lmao: at our boards asking me why anyone that isn't adamantly Anti Trump would bother posting on any of the political threads. I don't like it but I don't disagree.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. We'll just strongly disagree on why Trump supporters don't participate. It's primarily because they're far outnumbered and participating simply isn't worth the energy. They'll find a board where their posts are much more welcome. 

It's why the Alabama fan doesn't go to the Auburn message boards to talk Football. There are just way easier ways to have a discussion. 

I'm basing this on what I feel myself and what I've had other people tell me about our boards. I have some conservative lawyer friends who :lmao: at our boards asking me why anyone that isn't adamantly Anti Trump would bother posting on any of the political threads. I don't like it but I don't disagree.

 

Have you been to boards that are substantially pro-Trump? They pretty much make my argument that the man gives them little with which to work and they can't handle the debate even when they have numbers on their side.

Yeah, we're not gonna agree about this. 

Edited by roadkill1292

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7 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

Yeah, we're not gonna agree about this. 

 

:hifive: 

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58 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm not sure I follow. I do want us to engage people that have a thought different than ours. And I think it's ok to not engage those that are making arguments equal to 2+2 does not equal 4.

Are you saying everyone who disagrees with you is making a 2+2 does not equal 4 argument? 

All?  No.  The majority complaining about "echo chambers"?  Yep.  And I've already taken your advice.  I don't directly interact with them all that much but I do have to do a lot of scrolling through all the complaining posts about this place.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

 I do have to do a lot of scrolling through all the complaining posts about this place.

 

Same as day one, Buddy. ;)

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Same as day one, Buddy. ;)

Joe, I thought you'd appreciate this.

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33 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

:hifive: 

So what do you want us to do here? What are you really asking us to do, take them off ignore and engage with them? They're not gonna like that engagement very much if all they have is denial and MAGA. I have them on ignore specifically because they have awful arguments and this way I protect myself from saying something bannable. If anti-Trumpers have taken over one little forum on your board, you've had a lot worse problems.

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Same as day one, Buddy. ;)

haha...maybe.  I've been around a long time, but did take time off several years ago.  I don't ever remember it being like this.  Don't sell yourself short.  This place is awesome for the most part.  I think the largest difference between this point in history and all the time before is this President and the current state of the GOP.  It's gone off the rails and most of the moderates who were part of the party and interested in defending the values have jumped ship as well.  This leaves the fringe to be the mouth pieces for the party.  Before, they would get washed out in all the legit conversation.  This administration leaves so little for it's supporters to work with from a policy perspective that it's a no win situation, but that itch to argue remains, so they find other things to argue about and are generally met with strong resistance, not only from the other "side" but also from those of us who jumped ship as they began to careen into the ditch.  

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1 hour ago, roadkill1292 said:

I think you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle by worrying over the lack of opposition in this particular instance (only re: Trump, we have plenty of more equitable debates about other issues). Trump supporters don't participate because they're outnumbered. They don't participate because the man himself leaves them precious little with which to successfully defend and debate.

And I'll give you an example of that same weird phenomenon happening with another issue, only with the numbers reversed. In the debate about colleges eliminating the restrictions on athletes' incomes, there are about three of us (ok, a few more) who are really vocal about this issue (on the players' sides). The vast majority of your posters, if national polls are any indication, are on the other side of this issue. But they won't come out and debate us. There's plenty of them but they don't show up because they get killed by their lack of good arguments.

[/rant]

So basically you're always on the right side of a debate and anyone that doesn't respond to you is because they aren't capable of defending their position and they lack good arguments?   You seem like an open-minded guy that someone would surely want to engage whether it's politics or college sports.

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

So basically you're always on the right side of a debate and anyone that doesn't respond to you is because they aren't capable of defending their position and they lack good arguments?   You seem like an open-minded guy that someone would surely want to engage whether it's politics or college sports.

Same as it ever was.  Be thankful if you are on his ignore list.

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12 minutes ago, The Commish said:

haha...maybe.  I've been around a long time, but did take time off several years ago.  I don't ever remember it being like this.  Don't sell yourself short.  This place is awesome for the most part.  I think the largest difference between this point in history and all the time before is this President and the current state of the GOP.  It's gone off the rails and most of the moderates who were part of the party and interested in defending the values have jumped ship as well.  This leaves the fringe to be the mouth pieces for the party.  Before, they would get washed out in all the legit conversation.  This administration leaves so little for it's supporters to work with from a policy perspective that it's a no win situation, but that itch to argue remains, so they find other things to argue about and are generally met with strong resistance, not only from the other "side" but also from those of us who jumped ship as they began to careen into the ditch.  

For sure. The forums are trash and I'm doing all I can to actively destroy them has been the storyline for about 20 years now. All good. 

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22 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Joe, I thought you'd appreciate this.

:lmao: That's gold. Thank you. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

So what do you want us to do here? What are you really asking us to do, take them off ignore and engage with them? They're not gonna like that engagement very much if all they have is denial and MAGA. I have them on ignore specifically because they have awful arguments and this way I protect myself from saying something bannable. If anti-Trumpers have taken over one little forum on your board, you've had a lot worse problems.

There are some extremely delicate members here and you have to learn who the men are and who the boys are. Just 5 minutes ago and typed out a reply and had to backspace because I knew it was the wrong guy to joke around with. You have a lot of 'reporters' here. And then the lame ones who tag Joe when they get their little feelings hurt. Learn your members. That's key. Also, recognize the ones who are purposely trying to get people angry. Don't feed them. All things I'm slowly learning as we go.

Edited by JuniorNB

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9 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

There are some extremely delicate members here and you have to learn who the men are and who the boys are. Just 5 minutes ago and typed out a reply and had to backspace because I knew it was the wrong guy to joke around with. You have a lot of 'reporters' here. And then the lame ones who tag Joe when they get their little feelings hurt. Learn your members. That's key. Also, recognize the ones who are purposely trying to get people angry. Don't feed them. All things I'm slowly learning as we go.

Congratulations on your new found path to self-control.

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

Congratulations on your new found path to self-control.

Thanks buddy!

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. We'll just strongly disagree on why Trump supporters don't participate. It's primarily because they're far outnumbered and participating simply isn't worth the energy. They'll find a board where their posts are much more welcome. 

Its not that their posts might be 'more welcome' on other boards, its that they wouldn't be challenged like they are here.  maybe that's the same thing, but it makes it a little clearer

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5 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Congratulations on your new found path to self-control.

After the passive aggressive men vs boys comment, delicate posters, and being concerned about what Joe sees him post.  The comedy in here is never ending.  

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This thread is Exhibit 1 why the board is so bad.  Roadkill has basically said there is no possible defense to be a Trump supporter because the libs are always right.  :lmao::lmao::lmao:

What a clownshow this echo chamber has become.

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

After the passive aggressive men vs boys comment, delicate posters, and being concerned about what Joe sees him post.  The comedy in here is never ending.  

I didn't name names. It was a general statement.  If people come to the conclusion one of those statements is about them, perhaps they should ask themselves why.

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1 minute ago, JuniorNB said:

I didn't name names. It was a general statement.  If people come to the conclusion one of those statements is about them, perhaps they should ask themselves why.

Let us know if anyone comes to a conclusion about themselves after reading your post  :thumbup:

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Let us know if anyone comes to a conclusion about themselves after reading your post  :thumbup:

I think person #1 jumped in immediately. :popcorn:

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7 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

This thread is Exhibit 1 why the board is so bad.  Roadkill has basically said there is no possible defense to be a Trump supporter because the libs are always right.  :lmao::lmao::lmao:

What a clownshow this echo chamber has become.

When someone uses "libs" I can safely assume that the poster isn't here for honest discussion.  

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6 minutes ago, -fish- said:

When someone uses "libs" I can safely assume that the poster isn't here for honest discussion.  

go fish

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who needs an echo chamber more?

1/3 of a group that can't argue on substance and facts or the 2/3 that is made up a different perspectives and backgrounds that have all come to the same conclusion?

 

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3 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

This thread is Exhibit 1 why the board is so bad.  Roadkill has basically said there is no possible defense to be a Trump supporter because the libs are always right.  :lmao::lmao::lmao:

What a clownshow this echo chamber has become.

No offense, but if a person fails to recognize two of Trump's most famous quotes ("shoot somebody on 5th avenue" and "proud to shut down the government"), and shows a blatant ignorance of the Constitutional definition of "treason", then they really shouldn't be calling this place a "clownshow" or an "echo chamber".

 

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Wow, this forum is the perfect example of politics bringing out the absolute worst in people. Stop bickering, it's Friday!:banned:

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13 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

This thread is Exhibit 1 why the board is so bad.  Roadkill has basically said there is no possible defense to be a Trump supporter because the libs are always right.  :lmao::lmao::lmao:

What a clownshow this echo chamber has become.

There is no defense for Trump supporters because they can't mount a defense. It isn't like they are the pillars of intellectual honesty here. Most just write inane conspiracy theories and refuse to answer questions or back up any of their outlandish statements with any sort of factual basis.

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2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

No. It's staying here. I've had way too many people say they are thrilled to have political talk out of the FFA. 

Great posting.

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7 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

No offense, but if a person fails to recognize two of Trump's most famous quotes ("shoot somebody on 5th avenue" and "proud to shut down the government"), and shows a blatant ignorance of the Constitutional definition of "treason", then they really shouldn't be calling this place a "clownshow" or an "echo chamber".

 

blatent ignorance is your post above.  I never said I didn't recognize Trump saying he was proud to shut down the government.

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6 minutes ago, sn0mm1s said:

There is no defense for Trump supporters because they can't mount a defense. It isn't like they are the pillars of intellectual honesty here. Most just write inane conspiracy theories and refuse to answer questions or back up any of their outlandish statements with any sort of factual basis.

Of course they can.  I have done so many times.  Folks here don't want to hear facts they cling on hope that bad orange man is guilty.

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1 minute ago, Don't Noonan said:
5 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

No offense, but if a person fails to recognize two of Trump's most famous quotes ("shoot somebody on 5th avenue" and "proud to shut down the government"), and shows a blatant ignorance of the Constitutional definition of "treason", then they really shouldn't be calling this place a "clownshow" or an "echo chamber".

blatent ignorance is your post above.  I never said I didn't recognize Trump saying he was proud to shut down the government.

The fact that you refuse to admit to it is unrelated to the fact that you failed to display a sense of recognition when you wrote "Who said that?"

At any rate, the other two examples of your lack of knowledge are more than enough evidence to show that you shouldn't be tossing around words like "libs", "clownshow", or "echo chamber".

(or "blatent")

 

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1 minute ago, Don't Noonan said:
8 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

The fact that you refuse to admit to it is unrelated to the fact that you failed to display a sense of recognition when you wrote "Who said that?"

At any rate, the other two examples of your lack of knowledge are more than enough evidence to show that you shouldn't be tossing around words like "libs", "clownshow", or "echo chamber".

(or "blatent")

Let me help you out, having been attacked repeatedly for various stupid things because I am not anti-Trump I assumed someone was wrongfully implying I said it. 

Anyone with half a brain sees this is a far left echo chamber.

The fact that you won't get a timeout for the bolded is proof that it's not.

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Let me take a wild guess at what's happened in this thread:

Liberals claim it isn't an echo chamber, Conservatives claim it is.

www.pointless.com

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3 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Let me help you out, having been attacked repeatedly for various stupid things because I am not anti-Trump I assumed someone was wrongfully implying I said it. 

Anyone with half a brain sees this is a far left echo chamber.

Far left?  Again please show any examples of it being far left.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Of course they can.  I have done so many times.  Folks here don't want to hear facts they cling on hope that bad orange man is guilty.

We totally know he's guilty of several things. We don't yet know if he's guilty of collusion.  I know you want to pretend that's the only crime on the books, but it just doesn't work that way. Sorry to be the one to tell you that.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Let me help you out, having been attacked repeatedly for various stupid things because I am not anti-Trump I assumed someone was wrongfully implying I said it. 

Anyone with half a brain sees this is a far left echo chamber.

Glad to see you have half a brain. Those of us with more than half realize it isn't. 

Edited by sn0mm1s
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2 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

The fact that you won't get a timeout for the bolded is proof that it's not.

He told the site owner to 'get out of here with that crap' earlier today. I'm starting to think there are pee tapes.  (I kid, I kid)

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11 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

The fact that you won't get a timeout for the bolded is proof that it's not.

Timeout for calling this an echo chamber?  That is the thread title we are posting in.  :lol:

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7 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

The fact that you won't get a timeout for the bolded is proof that it's not.

The five posts opposing him prior to this were just as bad and they won't get a timeout either.  5 to 1 would be proof that it is.

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11 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Far left?  Again please show any examples of it being far left.

 

 

Look at the polls done in this forum where 98% of folks identify as anti-Trump.  Is that not enough for you?  Have you read the sub forum at all?

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6 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Look at the polls done in this forum where 98% of folks identify as anti-Trump.  Is that not enough for you?  Have you read the sub forum at all?

Anti Trump does not equal far left.

It doesn’t even equal left.

Care to try again or rephrase?

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Anti Trump does not equal far left.

It doesn’t even equal left.

Care to try again or rephrase?

Too far gone

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