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Dynasty: Rashaad Penny, Seattle Seahawks

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9 hours ago, kittenmittens said:

By this logic, Alvin Kamara is proven only a 3rd round talent, but Lawrence Maroney was a proven 1st round talent. 

 

Yes Kamara was a 3rd round talent.  I can't even believe I have to spell it out for people.  If they were drafted there, that's the talent that the NFL deemed them worthy at.  Obviously no other team had that player ranked higher, otherwise they would of went higher.  Kamara was a 3rd round talent, it's a fact at this point.  Show me 1 ranking site that had him either as a 1st round grade or even a top4 RB in his own class.  I'll wait.  

That doesn't mean they can't outproduce their draft position or bust compared to where they were drafted.  That's the issue people have with Penny right now, but he was proven to be a 1st round talent.  Put the caveat next to his name if you want "well it was by Pete Carol who is a known idiot", I don't care.  

9 hours ago, davearm said:

If you're on the clock in the first round, and there are no more players with first round talent left on your board, what do you do?

Trade down because it's likely another team has a 1st round grade on someone still.  

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4 minutes ago, Zyphros said:

 

Trade down because it's likely another team has a 1st round grade on someone still.  

Well by your logic, there are exactly 32 first-round talents in the draft.  Every single year, precisely 32.  Not 31, not 33 -- 32.

Let that percolate a minute and see if you can see the flaw in the logic.

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9 hours ago, thehoch said:

I live in San Diego and I live down the street from where he played his college games. I've seen him in person and watched his entire career. He's a special special talent and I watched Marshall Faulk too. He is a total stud. I am baffled why he hasn't gotten out of the gates better. One thing about Penny is he never ever ever ever makes excuses......meaning I honestly believe he has been hampered by something but won't admit it. Once he gets an opportunity, and he is 100% he is going to be a lightning bolt on the field. He is super elusive and has serious wheels. He made college players look like JV team in high school. That's just my two cents. A lot of people are talking about him who never really watched him play in college.

If you watched all of his college games, and were paying attention, then you would have noticed the following:

1) bad competition

2) can’t pass protect

3) can’t catch passes

4) SDSU ran with a fullback and 2 TE’s on 90% of plays. Does that inflate his stats, especially against bad competition?  Yes. 

5) SDSU ran the ball 44 times per game compared with 11 completions per game. On average, for every game, for the entire season. So when you run the ball 44 times per game with a FB and 2 TE formation on virtually every play, do you think that pads his stats?  Of course. 

I said all these things back in April. He was the easiest bust to pick out in the entire draft. Still dumbfounded why experts got caught up in Penny and why Seattle drafted him ahead of Guice and Chubb. Made...no...sense. 

Edited by Wooters

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11 minutes ago, davearm said:

Well by your logic, there are exactly 32 first-round talents in the draft.  Every single year, precisely 32.  Not 31, not 33 -- 32.

Let that percolate a minute and see if you can see the flaw in the logic.

 

I don’t understand your logic.  How does his statement translate to the way you interpreted it?  Another team in the league could have 1st round grades on 40 guys while another could have 1st round grades on only 20.

In any case, assuming SEA isn’t completely dumbfounded by the draft process after all these years, they thought Penny had enough talent to be the best guy left on their board at that pick.

It’s also very possible that Penny’s talent just won’t translate at the NFL level.  It’s not like this is some kind of rare event.  There are enough 1st round busts every draft.  Penny just might be one of those.

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31 minutes ago, davearm said:

Well by your logic, there are exactly 32 first-round talents in the draft.  Every single year, precisely 32.  Not 31, not 33 -- 32.

Let that percolate a minute and see if you can see the flaw in the logic.

That's not what I said at all like Bronco Billy pointed out already.  A team could have 1st round grades on any number of guys.  Think it through, you'll understand eventually.  

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1 hour ago, Zyphros said:

Yes Kamara was a 3rd round talent.  I can't even believe I have to spell it out for people.  If they were drafted there, that's the talent that the NFL deemed them worthy at.  Obviously no other team had that player ranked higher, otherwise they would of went higher.

This is not true.

  • Any team could have had a first or second round grade on him but had other players in addition to Kamara with first/second rounds grades fall to their first and second round picks.
  • Teams also may have had a first or second round grade on Kamara but prioritized other positions of need. For example, the Rams may have graded him as first or second round, but chosen to draft another position since they had Gurley.
  • Your statement also makes no allowance for the strength of the draft class at a given position. The 2017 RB class was unusually strong. Being ranked 4th or 5th among a group including Fournette, McCaffrey, Cook, Mxon, and Hunt is much different than being ranked there in a weaker class. Strength of position in a draft obviously can push players lower than where their talent would normally dictate.

 

1 hour ago, Zyphros said:

Kamara was a 3rd round talent, it's a fact at this point.  Show me 1 ranking site that had him either as a 1st round grade or even a top4 RB in his own class.  I'll wait. 

Here are a few sites:

  • NFL.com graded him as a round 2 prospect and ranked him as their #5 RB.
  • draftscout.com graded him as a round 2 prospect and ranked him as their #4 RB.
  • teamspeedkills.com said: "He could be picked anywhere toward the end of round one or sometime in the second round."
  • Walter Football graded him as a round 1-2 prospect and ranked him as their #4 RB and said: "Perhaps the highest Kamara could hope to go would be in the middle of Round 1... However, going in the top 20 seems too high for Kamara. Being selected late in the first round by one of the playoff teams is more feasible."
  • PFF ranked him as their #5 RB.

 

Here's a tip: try being a bit less arrogant and condescending in your posts on the subject.

Edited by Just Win Baby
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1 hour ago, Zyphros said:

That's not what I said at all like Bronco Billy pointed out already.  A team could have 1st round grades on any number of guys.  Think it through, you'll understand eventually.  

Maybe it's hard for us to understand because you're saying that Kamara is a 3rd round talent because he was drafted in the 3rd, but also that teams can have 1st round grades on any by number of guys.  

Couldn't the Saints have had a 1st round grade on Kamara? 

You're also basically saying that whatever a team thought about a players talent pre draft is exactly correct. It's amazing that they miss on picks.... 

We must be misinterpreting what you are saying?

Edited by kittenmittens

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1 hour ago, Zyphros said:

That's not what I said at all like Bronco Billy pointed out already.  A team could have 1st round grades on any number of guys.  Think it through, you'll understand eventually.  

You said being drafted in the first round means a guy has first round talent.

By that logic, then 32 guys have first round talent every year, no more no less.

12 hours ago, Zyphros said:

He was drafted in the 1st, therefore he was a 1st round talent.

 

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Not all players drafted in the first round posses the talent justified to be taken in the first round. This applies to all rounds. Further, "1st round talent" in one year does not equivocate to "1st round talent" in another year's class simply because they were drafted in the same round, like some sort of perfect world computer simulated vacuum of talent pool; being drafted in the first round is not some sort of justification to raise a player's talent perception to another player drafted in the same round (Barkley = Penny cos both are "1st round talents"). I'm not even getting into tiers which there is a huge dropoff in talent from the top5-10 picks and the back half of the early rounds in most draft classes.

Bottom line, 1st round talent is a phrase that signifies nearly nothing, but a cursory perception that at least one team (which might be dysfunctional, be a poor talent judge, or draft inferior talent based upon need) desired this player in the first round, justified or not. JaMarcus Russell says hi!

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3 hours ago, Wooters said:

If you watched all of his college games, and were paying attention, then you would have noticed the following:

1) bad competition

2) can’t pass protect

3) can’t catch passes

4) SDSU ran with a fullback and 2 TE’s on 90% of plays. Does that inflate his stats, especially against bad competition?  Yes. 

5) SDSU ran the ball 44 times per game compared with 11 completions per game. On average, for every game, for the entire season. So when you run the ball 44 times per game with a FB and 2 TE formation on virtually every play, do you think that pads his stats?  Of course. 

I said all these things back in April. He was the easiest bust to pick out in the entire draft. Still dumbfounded why experts got caught up in Penny and why Seattle drafted him ahead of Guice and Chubb. Made...no...sense. 

Bad competition? When Penny played in the Senior Bowl he smoked some of the best players in the country. He can't pass protect or catch passes? No that's just patently false and if it was true the Seahawks, would have not drafted him in the first round. Do you think you know more than their own scouting team who spend every hour of every day breaking film down? I don't think so, but you are entitled to your opinion.

SDSU ran with a fullback like a lot of other teams do......this is ridiculous.

He will not be a bust, I can guarantee you that. Tell you what, your post will not age well. I'll be back to remind you.

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Holy #### this thread has turned into a #### show!

It's October no one should give two ##### where anyone was drafted at this point.

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9 hours ago, thehoch said:

Bad competition? When Penny played in the Senior Bowl he smoked some of the best players in the country. He can't pass protect or catch passes? No that's just patently false and if it was true the Seahawks, would have not drafted him in the first round. Do you think you know more than their own scouting team who spend every hour of every day breaking film down? I don't think so, but you are entitled to your opinion.

SDSU ran with a fullback like a lot of other teams do......this is ridiculous.

He will not be a bust, I can guarantee you that. Tell you what, your post will not age well. I'll be back to remind you.

Yes he played against bad competition.  SDSU doesn't exactly have an SEC or Big 10 schedule.  1 game does not make a 4 year career.

He was rated as one of the worst pass protecting backs in the draft.  

He caught 42 total passes in 4 years.  

Most teams do not run with a FB and TWO TE's on 90% of plays.  There was only team in division 1 that did.  That was SDSU.  

Do I think I know more than Seattle scout team?  Well, maybe.  If I was Seattle's scout team there is a 0% chance I would have taken a RB there.  And if I was forced to take a RB there is a 0% chance I would have taken Penny over Guice or Chubb.  The fact that Seattle's scout team thought Penny was better than Guice/Chubb and took him over an OLineman is pure ignorance.  Therefore, I would have done a better job...at least with that pick.

You can't guarantee anything.  The dude is gar-baaaaage.  And fat.  And lazy.  And bad.  ;-) 

Edited by Wooters

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I don't know one person that thought this guy would be drafted in the 1st round. Guice was clearly the better player if taking a RB. The Bucs took a friggin kicker in the 2nd last year, so it's entirely possible that an NFL team can make moves that are dumb. Taking Penny in the 1st was a dumb pick and Seattle knows it already. Bust. 

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This guy fell to me @1.12 in our rookie draft. I figured he'd never be there so I didn't even research him but when he was there I was like zomg I have to take him. Picked him and then after the fact watched his highlights. Dude looks so unimpressive. Not seeing any powerful cuts, doesn't seem like his speed jumps off the screen even against lower tier div 1 players. 

What a waste of a pick I made. Just the fact that a 1st rd pick can't get on the field ahead of Davis should be a huge red flag. 

 

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19 hours ago, thehoch said:

Bad competition? When Penny played in the Senior Bowl he smoked some of the best players in the country. He can't pass protect or catch passes? No that's just patently false and if it was true the Seahawks, would have not drafted him in the first round. Do you think you know more than their own scouting team who spend every hour of every day breaking film down? I don't think so, but you are entitled to your opinion.

SDSU ran with a fullback like a lot of other teams do......this is ridiculous.

He will not be a bust, I can guarantee you that. Tell you what, your post will not age well. I'll be back to remind you.

 

You obviously are heavily invested in Penny.  If everything you are saying is true, how is he not the bell cow in SEA right now?  It’s not like he’s sitting behind a well established stud RB.  It seems like he has had every opportunity to win the starting job and can’t get it done.  RB is the easiest position for players to assimilate into the NFL.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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On 10/10/2018 at 9:38 PM, msudaisy26 said:

At least if he is overweight he has an excuse. Otherwise he is just sucking to this point.

Has he really sucked or just stuck behind two RBs playing well? I have only seen on Seahawks game and he looked good when he got the ball - albeit nothing special. If I owned him I’d be fairly disappointed with his lack of usage but I would still have some encouragement in that Carroll still seems to believe.

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20 hours ago, Chaka said:

Holy #### this thread has turned into a #### show!

It's October no one should give two ##### where anyone was drafted at this point.

I understand what you are saying but it’s not entirely true - because the reality is as a first round pick, Penny will be given many more chances to succeed than a late round draft pick or an UDFA.

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30 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I understand what you are saying but it’s not entirely true - because the reality is as a first round pick, Penny will be given many more chances to succeed than a late round draft pick or an UDFA.

 

Very true in many cases.  Once TC starts, all that should matter is performance, both tangible and intangible.  Good coaches and GMs understand that.  But a lot of them get involved in draft status, $$$ paid for FAs, and ego - and it does nothing but damage the team.  The players can easily see who does and doesn’t belong on the field, and which players the O and D should run through.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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12 hours ago, Wooters said:

Yes he played against bad competition.  SDSU doesn't exactly have an SEC or Big 10 schedule.  1 game does not make a 4 year career.

He was rated as one of the worst pass protecting backs in the draft.  

He caught 42 total passes in 4 years.  

Most teams do not run with a FB and TWO TE's on 90% of plays.  There was only team in division 1 that did.  That was SDSU.  

Do I think I know more than Seattle scout team?  Well, maybe.  If I was Seattle's scout team there is a 0% chance I would have taken a RB there.  And if I was forced to take a RB there is a 0% chance I would have taken Penny over Guice or Chubb.  The fact that Seattle's scout team thought Penny was better than Guice/Chubb and took him over an OLineman is pure ignorance.  Therefore, I would have done a better job...at least with that pick.

You can't guarantee anything.  The dude is gar-baaaaage.  And fat.  And lazy.  And bad.  ;-) 

Just out of curiosity which lineman do you think the Seahawks should have selected instead of Penny?

If you think scouting offensive linemen is easy I would like to know what traits in linemen your looking for?

Edited by Biabreakable

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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I understand what you are saying but it’s not entirely true - because the reality is as a first round pick, Penny will be given many more chances to succeed than a late round draft pick or an UDFA.

Of course but 1) we all know that it should be implied (or minimally stated) and B) that wasn't the part of the discussion that turned this thread into a #$$# show.

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19 hours ago, Wooters said:

Yes he played against bad competition.  SDSU doesn't exactly have an SEC or Big 10 schedule.  1 game does not make a 4 year career.

He was rated as one of the worst pass protecting backs in the draft.  

He caught 42 total passes in 4 years.  

Most teams do not run with a FB and TWO TE's on 90% of plays.  There was only team in division 1 that did.  That was SDSU.  

Do I think I know more than Seattle scout team?  Well, maybe.  If I was Seattle's scout team there is a 0% chance I would have taken a RB there.  And if I was forced to take a RB there is a 0% chance I would have taken Penny over Guice or Chubb.  The fact that Seattle's scout team thought Penny was better than Guice/Chubb and took him over an OLineman is pure ignorance.  Therefore, I would have done a better job...at least with that pick.

You can't guarantee anything.  The dude is gar-baaaaage.  And fat.  And lazy.  And bad.  ;-) 

Wow! This is unbelievable. He is definitely not garbage. The guy is a beast. I have no doubt he's going to prove you wrong, will you be man enough to come back and admit it when he does?

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3 hours ago, thehoch said:

Wow! This is unbelievable. He is definitely not garbage. The guy is a beast. I have no doubt he's going to prove you wrong, will you be man enough to come back and admit it when he does?

I hope you're right as I own this guy but how long does he need to keep getting beaten out by UDFA's until you admit that he's not cut out for the NFL?

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40 minutes ago, FreshiZ said:

I hope you're right as I own this guy but how long does he need to keep getting beaten out by UDFA's until you admit that he's not cut out for the NFL?

Until you trade him.

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17 hours ago, thehoch said:

Wow! This is unbelievable. He is definitely not garbage. The guy is a beast. I have no doubt he's going to prove you wrong, will you be man enough to come back and admit it when he does?

I put up facts.  You put up emotional wishful thinking.  Good luck with that.

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On 10/13/2018 at 10:56 AM, Biabreakable said:

Just out of curiosity which lineman do you think the Seahawks should have selected instead of Penny?

If you think scouting offensive linemen is easy I would like to know what traits in linemen your looking for?

It's not my job to know who they should have drafted, and I'm not going to go back and look now.  I do know that it doesn't take a professional NFL scout to know that Chubb or Guice are going to be much much much better RB's than Penny, and both of them can actually pass protect.  I also know that it doesn't take a professional NFL scout to know that Seattle's #1 weakness is their OLine and drafting a RB that is terrible at pass protection is a horrible move.  Stunningly horrible.  So much so that their entire scouting team should be fired, along with their head coach that allowed that to happen.  

How hard is it to get your best player, your franchise player, your highest paid player, the only guy on your team that can win you a Superbowl, some funking pass protection.  This has been an ongoing problem for 3 years.  And they draft Rashad freaking Penny?  Their entire executive suite should be released today.

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I didn’t see the game but he got some touches. Anyone see if his touches were meaningful at all?

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Just now, kutta said:

I didn’t see the game but he got some touches. Anyone see if his touches were meaningful at all?

Not really.  Carson started, with Davis in relief.  Penny sprinkled in here and there semi-randomly, although he had some decent plays. 

Game was out of hand early, so nothing to be gleaned about future usage IMO.

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Had a screen pass on the 1st drive and I don't remember seeing him again until the 4th quarter.

The field was pretty slippery so they probably didn't want to risk the future of their franchise on a blowout game.

 

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He had more total yards than any other RB on the roster today. That seems like a good sign.

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