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Dynasty: Rashaad Penny, Seattle Seahawks

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6 minutes ago, King of the Jungle said:

But there is a reason he is not getting touches. You don’t burn a first rounder on a player to not use him. Carson is great but there is something amiss with Penny. Either they don’t trust him in protection or he has an attitude problem. It will be interesting if he gets moved before Tuesday.

My guess is he’s not a dedicated professional athlete. There has been reports of him coming in out of shape. He’s having issues pulling things, Seattle seems hesitant to trust him, rumors of a trade, etc. It’s total speculation but that’s my best guess to the Penny situation.

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Rashaad Penny rushed two times for two yards in the Seahawks' Week 10 win over the 49ers.

He lost a fumble on one of the touches and was never heard from again as Chris Carson piled up 101 yards and a score on 28 touches. Penny can safely be dropped in redraft leagues. He'd only have value in the event of a Carson injury, and even then Penny wouldn't be guaranteed a big workload thanks to his lack of playmaking on limited touches this season.

Nov 12, 2019, 12:40 AM ET

 

 

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Rashaad Penny rushed 14 times for 129 yards and one touchdown in the Seahawks' 17-9, Week 12 win over the Eagles.

Penny had touched the ball just 22 times since Week 2 coming into this one, so it was pretty surprising to see Penny get so involved in the offense. He out-carried Chris Carson 14-8, as Carson again lost a fumble, leading to Penny getting all the late-game clock-killing work. Penny was involved before the fumble, however, with a 58-yard touchdown run and another long gain. He wasn't a factor in the passing game. Penny earned more work moving forward and needs to be re-added wherever he was dropped in fantasy. He's still tough to trust right now as a starter.

 

Edited by The Frankman
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Watched every snap of this game. There was nothing special about Penny’s performance. He was handed great opportunities with big holes. He was fast enough to get through the hole provided. 

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Which just reinforces that maybe there’s nothing special about Carson either. When you play in the backfield behind Rus Wilson maybe you just need to be the guy that gets the opportunity. Carson’s fumbling issues just might hand Penny more opportunity and that’s the whole point.

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3 minutes ago, BigAl21 said:

Which just reinforces that maybe there’s nothing special about Carson either. When you play in the backfield behind Rus Wilson maybe you just need to be the guy that gets the opportunity. Carson’s fumbling issues just might hand Penny more opportunity and that’s the whole point.

*facepalm*

 

I feel like people have said this for 2 years about Carson in this thread.

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I am still a Penny believer and think he just needs the chance. Fumbling in the NFL at the rate that Carson does it is not a good trait for an NFL RB. Especially when the guy behind you has averaged 5.3 yards per carry, albeit in a limited sample (135 career carries). I know some people don’t love statistic of YPC but I also don’t necessarily put much stock into Frankman’s eyeball test either, is all I’m saying.

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5 minutes ago, need2know said:

I still dont get why suddenly penny got these chances in the game today 

Because I held onto him for three months and dropped him at 11:00 this morning?

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5 hours ago, BigAl21 said:

Which just reinforces that maybe there’s nothing special about Carson either. When you play in the backfield behind Rus Wilson maybe you just need to be the guy that gets the opportunity. Carson’s fumbling issues just might hand Penny more opportunity and that’s the whole point.

You must not be watching Carson to say this. His broken tackle stats tell the story. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/rushing_advanced.htm

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2 hours ago, need2know said:

I still dont get why suddenly penny got these chances in the game today 

Hot hand? Load management for Carson regardless on how the game went, although the team just had their bye so perhaps not? Overall, the game was weird. Seattle’s offense didn’t play well, which means yesterday’s game could mean zip long term. Penny has had good games before, and nothing (productive) happens the following week. 

Edited by Mario Wario

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6 hours ago, Mario Wario said:

Hot hand? Load management for Carson regardless on how the game went, although the team just had their bye so perhaps not? Overall, the game was weird. Seattle’s offense didn’t play well, which means yesterday’s game could mean zip long term. Penny has had good games before, and nothing (productive) happens the following week. 

They get the Vikings next week. Which means he'll probably stay on the bench in most ff leagues. 

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10 hours ago, Mario Wario said:

Hot hand? Load management for Carson regardless on how the game went, although the team just had their bye so perhaps not? Overall, the game was weird. Seattle’s offense didn’t play well, which means yesterday’s game could mean zip long term. Penny has had good games before, and nothing (productive) happens the following week. 

Load management? Scared Carson owner.

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11 hours ago, Hooper31 said:

You must not be watching Carson to say this. His broken tackle stats tell the story. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/rushing_advanced.htm

Well... not always IMO because these numbers lack some context I think. What's better than breaking a tackle?  Not having to break the tackle at all because the defender never touched you (meaning because you ran away fast enough or juked well enough). 

I think one of the reasons he fumbles, not the one I saw yesterday of course, but he's not moving fast and he doesn't go down easy, which gives the defenders lots shots at smashing him hard and punching the ball out. 

Don't get me wrong I think Carson is talented and a very good power back.  I am concerned that he won't last, either due to fumbles, getting pummeled himself as he pummel the defense, or injury. 

Edited by kittenmittens

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17 hours ago, Hooper31 said:

Watched every snap of this game. There was nothing special about Penny’s performance. He was handed great opportunities with big holes. He was fast enough to get through the hole provided. 

Hi GB. Do you think that there's a risk that Carson loses the job? 

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17 hours ago, Hooper31 said:

Watched every snap of this game. There was nothing special about Penny’s performance. He was handed great opportunities with big holes. He was fast enough to get through the hole provided. 

Honestly I don't watch a lot of Seahawks football. Is this speed something Carson is lacking?

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6 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

Load management? Scared Carson owner.

And if Penny fails this weekend while Carson does enough, the same ‘scared’ logic can be said to Penny owners. For instance, the whole ‘is he a bust, is he too fat, etc.’ Btw, what about Lockett, Wilson, and Metcalf? Are those 3 players garbage now after yesterday? No. The whole offense was bad yesterday, just the Eagles were worse. Yesterday’s game was just weird in how it went for Seattle. Overall, let’s see if Penny can be the stud everyone wants him to be, consistently. Can he beat Mr. Fumble?

Edited by Mario Wario
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51 minutes ago, Twenty-Four Eighty-Four said:

Honestly I don't watch a lot of Seahawks football. Is this speed something Carson is lacking?

Yeah speed is not really Carson's game.  He's a beast, but he's not super fast or bursty.

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7 minutes ago, Mario Wario said:

And if Penny fails this weekend while Carson does enough, the same ‘sacred’ logic can be said to Penny owners. For instance, the whole ‘is he a bust, is he too fat, etc.’ Btw, what about Lockett yesterday? What about Wilson? Metcalf had a bad game, too. Are those 3 players garbage now? No. The whole offense was bad yesterday, just the Eagles were worse. Yesterday’s game was just weird in how it went for Seattle. Overall, let’s see if Penny can be the stud everyone wants him to be, consistently. Can he beat Mr. Fumble?

A lot of dishonest garbage. If Lockett was healthy and got benched that would be a good comparison.

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7 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

A lot of dishonest garbage. If Lockett was healthy and got benched that would be a good comparison.

My point is that we all overreact to things too quickly, regardless of the situation. The process needs to play out to better understand what is going on, especially after a weird game. Football likes to play tricks on us. Apparently we are not on the same page and that’s fine. Onward to week 13. 

Edited by Mario Wario
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4 minutes ago, Mario Wario said:

My point is that we all overreact to things too quickly, regardless of the situation. The process needs to play out to better understand what is going on. Apparently we are not on the same page. Onward to week 13. 

What's going on is that Carson has 7 fumbles in 11 games. If you believe that the coaching staff will continue to abide that situation and it will not affect Carson's workload, that's a reasonable opinion but this isn't about overaction or letting things "play out".

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Carson has 7 fumbles in 11 games this year. 

7 is a huge number of fumbles in 11 games. 

You have to go back to 2003 to find a running back with more than 8 in a season (Tiki Barber).  Only a handful of backs have managed 8 in a season over the past decade plus. 

You can go back to the 90s and not find ANYONE with more than 9 fumbles in a season. 

Basically it appears that history says fumbling in more than 50 percent of your games means you can't be trusted and won't be on the field. 

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Penny was my favorite back outside of Saquon last year. The continued Eddie Lacy’ing of his conditioning is a trend at this point. Even if he is somehow able to take hold of a significant share in the last 1/4 of the season how can you believe him about his conditioning this offseason? This last offseason was all about him being down to <230, working out with Marshall Faulk... blah, blah, blah. He comes out yesterday and says he stopped eating McDonalds during the season and got a nutritionist and is down to 230 from 238. It’s just unacceptable at this point. He clearly has big play ability he’s displayed in both his pro seasons, he also clearly doesn’t have the work ethic needed to match that ability. 

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1 hour ago, habsfan said:

What's going on is that Carson has 7 fumbles in 11 games. If you believe that the coaching staff will continue to abide that situation and it will not affect Carson's workload, that's a reasonable opinion but this isn't about overaction or letting things "play out".

I can agree with that. And yep, not a pretty number for Carson. 

Btw, when looking at last week’s Seahawk news moments ago, looks like one of the coaches said they wanted to use their RBs more, not just Carson only. (Anyone on here do let me know if I’m right or wrong about that.) Today on radio, Pete said he saw something with Penny during last week’s practices. There are also more encouraging comments by Pete regarding Penny. (Source is Gregg Bell from Twitter.) Anyway, we are getting some answers by waiting a day, into Pete’s thinking. I know, good luck with that one! 

Edited by Mario Wario

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9 minutes ago, Iceman03 said:

Penny was my favorite back outside of Saquon last year. The continued Eddie Lacy’ing of his conditioning is a trend at this point. Even if he is somehow able to take hold of a significant share in the last 1/4 of the season how can you believe him about his conditioning this offseason? This last offseason was all about him being down to <230, working out with Marshall Faulk... blah, blah, blah. He comes out yesterday and says he stopped eating McDonalds during the season and got a nutritionist and is down to 230 from 238. It’s just unacceptable at this point. He clearly has big play ability he’s displayed in both his pro seasons, he also clearly doesn’t have the work ethic needed to match that ability. 

This was something that stunned me.  I was a huge Penny truther last year and loved what I saw of him in college.  I don't get to see Seattle much, they were on a few weeks ago and couldn't believe how fat he looked.  This explains it all to me.  In the NFL everyone around you is elite and operating close to 100%, and if you're carrying extra pounds and only operating at 92% you're gonna get smoked.

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1 hour ago, kittenmittens said:

Carson has 7 fumbles in 11 games this year. 

7 is a huge number of fumbles in 11 games. 

You have to go back to 2003 to find a running back with more than 8 in a season (Tiki Barber).  Only a handful of backs have managed 8 in a season over the past decade plus. 

You can go back to the 90s and not find ANYONE with more than 9 fumbles in a season. 

Basically it appears that history says fumbling in more than 50 percent of your games means you can't be trusted and won't be on the field.

Carson is actually responsible for 9 fumbles. 2 of them were attributed to Wilson because Carson never had possession... but that was because in both cases he was unable to cleanly take a simple handoff. (ETA: the one yesterday was apparently because Carson didn't realize Wilson changed the play at the line.)

Now combine that with Penny's performance yesterday, and I think it is obvious Carson will lose ground to Penny this week. What happens beyond this week depends on how they both play.

Edited by Just Win Baby
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16 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Now combine that with Penny's performance yesterday, and I think it is obvious Carson will lose ground to Penny this week. 

Quite a quick turnaround from Penny Lame.

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Truth is I saw Penny whiff on pass protection and Carson didn’t. That will matter. People forget Penny has put the ball on the ground. (As has Wilson, as have the receivers). 
Penny did look good yesterday. Massive hole caught the Eagles by surprise with bad angles. We’ll see if he can continue. It will be a split but looking at Carson’s multiple 20 carry 100+ yard game and still showing strong burst there is no way he sits on the pine. My bet is Penny reverts to most of his 2018-2019 form. I’ll let him have more carries vs the Vikings. 

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7 minutes ago, Judge Smails said:

Truth is I saw Penny whiff on pass protection and Carson didn’t. That will matter. People forget Penny has put the ball on the ground. (As has Wilson, as have the receivers). 
Penny did look good yesterday. Massive hole caught the Eagles by surprise with bad angles. We’ll see if he can continue. It will be a split but looking at Carson’s multiple 20 carry 100+ yard game and still showing strong burst there is no way he sits on the pine. My bet is Penny reverts to most of his 2018-2019 form. I’ll let him have more carries vs the Vikings. 

What about the fumbles? 

Edited by kittenmittens

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Yeah, the "I finally quit McD's and mom's lasagna" thing is worrisome. There's always a chance he's just a kid with a family and highschool/college programs that never pushed proper "elite athlete" required nutrition. Lacy is looking like a good comp... hopefully that changes.

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38 minutes ago, Judge Smails said:

looking at Carson’s multiple 20 carry 100+ yard game and still showing strong burst there is no way he sits on the pine

OK. As of today, he is responsible for 9 fumbles in 11 games. You say no way that is enough that he loses his role.

What if he fumbles again next game? Twice? How many would it take to change your mind?

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4 hours ago, kittenmittens said:

Carson has 7 fumbles in 11 games this year. 

7 is a huge number of fumbles in 11 games. 

You have to go back to 2003 to find a running back with more than 8 in a season (Tiki Barber).  Only a handful of backs have managed 8 in a season over the past decade plus. 

You can go back to the 90s and not find ANYONE with more than 9 fumbles in a season. 

Basically it appears that history says fumbling in more than 50 percent of your games means you can't be trusted and won't be on the field. 

I think this may be a situation where, while it is an alarming number, it may be overplayed and too scrutinized.  It's been beat on and put under the microscope but sometimes things happen at different points in a players careers.  Most players, even great ones, go through ugly spots.  Didn't Eli Manning lead the league in interceptions in the same year the Giants won the super bowl?   

I think the Seahawks need to sit down and think about what they think they really have in Carson (which,in my opinion, is a very good player who has proven he can help this team win games).  If were the decision maker, I think I would support him and get what I know we can from him.

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7 minutes ago, Shutout said:

I think this may be a situation where, while it is an alarming number, it may be overplayed and too scrutinized.  It's been beat on and put under the microscope but sometimes things happen at different points in a players careers.  Most players, even great ones, go through ugly spots.  Didn't Eli Manning lead the league in interceptions in the same year the Giants won the super bowl?   

I think the Seahawks need to sit down and think about what they think they really have in Carson (which,in my opinion, is a very good player who has proven he can help this team win games).  If were the decision maker, I think I would support him and get what I know we can from him.

This would be Carson's 3rd fumble ugly spot, 1 in 2018, 1 at the beginning of the season, and a third one now. 

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People acting like 1) Chris Carson is somehow special and 2) like he could have made that run last week. He can’t do what Penny can if the dude just acted like a pro football player instead of a pro eating contest participant this wouldn’t be close. Carson runs over 190lb DB’s though so that must mean he’s good.

Edited by Iceman03

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2 minutes ago, Iceman03 said:

People acting like 1) Chris Carson is somehow special and 2) like he could have made that run last week. 🙄 Guys career long is 25 yards from what I can tell. He can’t do what Penny can if the dude just acted like a pro football player instead of a pro eating contest participant this wouldn’t be close. Carson runs over 190lb DB’s though so that must mean he’s good.

I agree with this but my worry is what Carrol thinks 

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3 hours ago, Judge Smails said:

Truth is I saw Penny whiff on pass protection and Carson didn’t. That will matter. People forget Penny has put the ball on the ground. (As has Wilson, as have the receivers). 
Penny did look good yesterday. Massive hole caught the Eagles by surprise with bad angles. We’ll see if he can continue. It will be a split but looking at Carson’s multiple 20 carry 100+ yard game and still showing strong burst there is no way he sits on the pine. My bet is Penny reverts to most of his 2018-2019 form. I’ll let him have more carries vs the Vikings. 

Carson blew the block in the 49ers game that led to the Wilson/IFedi fumble.

Seahawks used a first rounder on Penny, and have consistently believed in him.   They want him to take over as the lead back.   He's had numerous setbacks, including his hand injury last year, the hamstring this year, and his conditioning issues.   But they are going to keep giving him every opportunity to succeed.

Carson is responsible for 9 fumbles this year.    They love how hard he runs, but quite frankly they know he's just a guy and they aren't good enough to absorb turnovers.   If Penny heats up, he'll continue to get more snaps and more touches.

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1 hour ago, Iceman03 said:

People acting like 1) Chris Carson is somehow special and 2) like he could have made that run last week. He can’t do what Penny can if the dude just acted like a pro football player instead of a pro eating contest participant this wouldn’t be close. Carson runs over 190lb DB’s though so that must mean he’s good.

People acting like 1) we haven’t seen this from Penny before. Week 10 vs LA last year 12 carries over 100 yards long TD. Didn’t sniff more than 8 carries the rest of the way 2) round drafted means anything after somebody has had 2 training camps, hundreds of practices and ample chance to show work ethic, commitment to get in shape, desire, growth. 3) that size or not Penny runs harder/hits harder than Carson. No way 4) Carson can’t break long runs. He may fumble at the end of 49 yard runs, but he can break away too 

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9 hours ago, bostonfred said:

Hi GB. Do you think that there's a risk that Carson loses the job? 

It’s possible, but the Seattle coaching staff has shown a desire to have a violent RB more than a fast RB through the years. Carson is violent, but not as fast as Penny. Yes, Carson could fumble the job away, but I don’t think we’re there yet. Also, Penny has yet to show me any form of shiftiness that I would like to see. Carson has demonstrated some nimble feet from time to time. 

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6 minutes ago, Hooper31 said:

It’s possible, but the Seattle coaching staff has shown a desire to have a violent RB more than a fast RB through the years. Carson is violent, but not as fast as Penny. Yes, Carson could fumble the job away, but I don’t think we’re there yet. Also, Penny has yet to show me any form of shiftiness that I would like to see. Carson has demonstrated some nimble feet from time to time. 

Have they shown a preference for featuring a 'violent' RB or for featuring the best RB they can? Lynch was their best RB for most of Carroll's tenure. Carson has been for the past 2 seasons, so far. How do you know that is a style preference vs. a simple preference for the best player?

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42 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Have they shown a preference for featuring a 'violent' RB or for featuring the best RB they can? Lynch was their best RB for most of Carroll's tenure. Carson has been for the past 2 seasons, so far. How do you know that is a style preference vs. a simple preference for the best player?

It’s an all encompassing team philosophy. Run the ball, control the clock, rest your defense. Pete Carroll has been fairly consistent with this philosophy and it’s been no secret. They want to out-physical every opponent. Even Rawls at his best was a violent runner too. It’s been a fairly successful formula. As other teams ebb and flow Pete has kept it rolling. 

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Penny after the game was attributing his improved play to stopping to eat McDonalds and said how hard it was. The kid doesn't get it. If dedicating himself to football and a big goal he reached was to cut out McDonalds he's just not going to be able to compete with the other players in the league that have a real fire. Can Eddy Lacy come in and do some counseling?

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Seahawks’ Pete Carroll ‘fired up’ about Rashaad Penny’s breakthrough. What does that mean for Chris Carson?

RENTON — As he has done at various points this season — when the unavoidable ball-security questions would pop up about his featured running back — Pete Carroll on Monday was quick to defend Chris Carson.

Then the Seahawks coach just as quickly turned the conversation to his quickest running back — Rashaad Penny.

“Rashaad did great. I’m really fired up for that,” Carroll said of Penny’s breakthroughin Sunday’s 17-9 victory at Philadelphia. “We need his explosiveness. He continues to show up. He has had the real home-run type of style of play. We’ve got to give him chances to bring that to us.”

What does that mean for the running-back position going forward — and specifically for Carson?

Carson was involved in two more fumbles, on back-to-back plays, against the Eagles — the second one officially credited to Russell Wilson on a botched handoff.

That gives Carson a league-high seven fumbles this season, which is three more than any other running back in the NFL. Four of those have resulted in turnovers.

Publicly, Carroll shrugged off Sunday’s fumbles when he was asked if those directly led to more touches for Penny.

“That’s not the case in my mind. The opportunity to play and to contribute is always there in that spot in particular,” Carroll said. “What Chris did yesterday, our offensive lineman knocked the ball out of his hands on the first one. The other one, it was a communication problem. It’s a little different than the guy just dropping the ball all over the place.”

After the game, Wilson took the blame for the miscue on the handoff exchange. The quarterback changed the play to a run at the line of scrimmage — and Carson clearly didn’t hear the audible.

“I just think I have to do a better job of making sure we’re really clear on what we’re trying to do there. I’ll put it on me for sure,” Wilson said.

Carson had eight carries for a season-low 26 yards on Sunday, but a team-high four catches for 31 yards. His 239 touches this season rank sixth in the NFL, and his 1,099 yards from scrimmage rank ninth.

Penny, the 2018 first-round pick, had 14 carries for 129 yards against the Eagles, both career highs. His 58-yard touchdown run in the fourth quarter all but iced the game for the Seahawks, and his 5.9 yards per carry this season are the most by any NFL running back with 50 carries or more (and third overall behind Baltimore QB Lamar Jackson and Arizona QB Kyler Murray).

Penny was coming off a game against the 49ers when he had just two carries — and lost a fumble on his last touch. It was the first fumble of his NFL career.

Last week, Carroll said he was a little surprised Penny hadn’t been more involved in the Seahawks’ offensive plan in previous games.

Now it appears Penny has earned more touches going forward.

“It just seemed like he turned a corner on — well, he did it in a couple different areas,” Carroll said Monday. “His intent to prove that he’s worthy and get his playing time, just the competitiveness of it. He knew Chris was playing really well and doing good stuff. He knew that he needed to put his best foot forward. …

“It wasn’t a surprise that he looked like that. That’s what he’s been looking like. Wish it would’ve shown up a little earlier, but that’s my fault for not getting him in there.”

Adam Jude @A_Jude

Rashaad Penny is No. 1 among NFL running backs in yards per carry (for those with >= 50 carries), and third overall. Russell Wilson is ninth, via pro football ref.

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On 11/25/2019 at 9:08 PM, FreshiZ said:

Penny after the game was attributing his improved play to stopping to eat McDonalds and said how hard it was. The kid doesn't get it. If dedicating himself to football and a big goal he reached was to cut out McDonalds he's just not going to be able to compete with the other players in the league that have a real fire. Can Eddy Lacy come in and do some counseling?

So he changes his behavior to cut out fast food and you see that as an indication that he doesn't "get it."?

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58 minutes ago, Chaka said:

So he changes his behavior to cut out fast food and you see that as an indication that he doesn't "get it."?

As an average person I'll admit I struggle to wrap my head around professional athletes who can't stay in shape, especially young ones like Penny who haven't managed to solidify their role.

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14 minutes ago, habsfan said:

As an average person I'll admit I struggle to wrap my head around professional athletes who can't stay in shape, especially young ones like Penny who haven't managed to solidify their role.

That understandable.  Again, how was that story an indication of him not "getting it"?

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1 hour ago, Chaka said:

So he changes his behavior to cut out fast food and you see that as an indication that he doesn't "get it."?

Cutting out McDonald's is sort of an entry level step in terms of maximizing fitness. A pro athlete who just figured that out is way behind the curve. 

If THAT was really hard, you probably have a long, long way to go. 

That means there should be lots of room for improvement on the flip side, if he does "get it" now and eliminating McDonald's is just one of many changes he is making. 

 

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